Used car failure, tale of abject misery

 Nightmare. Nothing to offer apart from sympathy.

As soon as I read the start of your 2nd sentence I knew what had happened. I have one too, and I too have taken out an extended Vauxhall warranty to cover the chain going. I could shell out about £2000 to have the new top end put on the engine, or I could wait and hope Vauxhall/Warranty cover it if it goes. Vauxhall will be very picky about which oil was used. It MUST be to the fpw9.55535/03 specification which was specially developed for these engines due to snapping chains.

I have been buying it from France as it has been hard/expensive to get.

I feel your pain. Good luck. Part of the problem is getting parts to fix it. Often it is new engine.

EDIT: I would add that my local Vauxhall dealerships have been worse than useless when it comes to actually knowing what is the correct oil. I tried to get them to do an oil change as soon as the new oil was recommended. there has been a Technical Service Bulletin sent out to all Stellantis service centres, but they denied it and insisted it would just be changed with the "usual" oil. They wouldn't accept that there had been a change, even when I went in with a copy of the TSB and an email from Vauxhall Customer Services.

They have to resolve the issue within a reasonable time frame. 

I think you can argue 41 days to do absolutely nothing is not a reasonable and you could reject the car. 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the-car-i-bought-has-a-problem-what-are-my-rights-aAnMC5b0ZzJb

I would write a stern letter to the dealer outlining your expectations. They sold you the car, and they sold you the warranty. It is their responsibility to put it right. 

Do you have a concrete communication from them that they ARE going to fix it? My bet is that the fpw 9.55535/03 oil wasn't used at the service that took place after January 2024 and that is why Vauxhall are refusing to honour it. I think the dealer will have serviced it using the out-of-date oil specification, and that is in the service history and Vauxhall have picked up on it.

If you get a new engine, or the engine rebuilt with the 8mm chain (I would refuse a 7mm chain rebuild) it should be better than new.

If you get  refund and are looking for a similar vehicle, you need to look for one with a build date of AFTER Feb 2023. After this point they were all 8mm chains. I wish I'd known all of this when I bought mine.

Yeah, a letter is probably the best option, and is one of the reasons why I decided to gather the timeline together, I’ll give them a week to fix it, to the correct updated specification, or I will be rejecting the car.

They are never going to do it in a week. Getting the parts will be a nightmare. These 7mm chains are going left-right-and-centre. If the van fits, wait it out. You have a courtesy car. Use it, and if you need a bigger one, ask! I would also ask for an extended-extended warranty on the repairs. Start looking for deals on FPW9.55535/03 oil...

It could be worse. You could have 1.2 Puretech Petrol with a wet-belt.

I would suggest nailing sausages into their lawn but I guess it is a concrete forecourt.

Posted by: Nick

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Do I have grounds, within the next 5 weeks (when we will have owned the car for 6 months) to return it and ask for a replacement or refund?

Yes.

Buying a used car from a dealer, you have the same rights as new.  Any fault within the first six months is deemed to be inherent and you're well with within your rights to ask for a full refund.  Which is exactly what I'd have done when I was expected to arrange my own tow to the garage, let alone not being given a courtesy car there and then.  Having you without a vehicle for over 4 months is shocking behaviour and a breach of the Consumer Rights Act, any repairs you allow them to attempt must be carried out "without significant inconvenience" to yourself.

Stop using the word "warranty," this is not a warranty issue and will muddy the waters (and potentially even give them an 'out' if they decide that the timing chain is a consumable or other such tommyrot).  You're not making a warranty claim, you're making a CRA claim.  You need to be clear about that.

If the timing chain has snapped it's likely ****ed (why don't manufacturers fit two?) and the reason it's taken almost half a year and counting to resolve is because no-one wants to stump up for a new engine.

Posted by: Nick

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when we will have owned the car for 6 months

The clock stops when you reported the fault.  They can't sit on it for months and then go "well, you're outside of six months now so tough."  That said, I wouldn't be giving them the opportunity to attempt that stunt.  Get your money back and walk away ASAP.  Personally I wouldn't want a replacement, I'd want nothing further to do with them.  YMMV, though without a vehicle that's probably quite low. 😁

Make sure that everything is documented properly with times and dates.

Reject the van as cougar suggests. It's a van, lots more exist.

They're the dealer, this isn't your fault. If you have confidence in them following a successful conclusion you can always look at their forecourt again

If the timing chain has snapped it's likely ****ed (why don't manufacturers fit two?)

Not sure that would help, when the first breaks it's likely to jam in the other chain or debris would damage the second. 

If it doesn't affect the remaining chain, how would you know it broke.

Space in the engine bay.

Cost. Might sound like buttons but the second chain would presumably need it's own tensioner.

Reject the car. Letter to the place that sold you it, if no satisfactory response in a further reasonable time frame (say 14 days for arguments sake) then a proper letter before action for small claims court. 

don’t let them **** you around any further, you’ve had far more patience than I would have by far. 

Thanks for the advice all, going to sleep on it over the weekend and call them on Monday. If it’s the same old story I’ll write them a letter. 

I agree with cougar. Don't call them, they'll just tell you it's being dealt with and they'll call you back etc. Just go through the formal proceedings. Ignore all their excuses until you have been refunded. Forget the warranty. 

Posted by: troutwrestler

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It could be worse. You could have 1.2 Puretech Petrol with a wet-belt.

I’ve got the Ford 1.0 EcoBoost engine, that has been fine, all up to date on services and done by the garage down the road who are a Ford and Volvo service centre. They used to be a main dealer, until main dealership designation went to the big places on huge business parks. Still, they’re close enough to walk to and from. 
Lots of people have said I should have got a car with a cam chain, well from this sad situation that doesn’t seem to be the guarantee of trouble-free motoring that many people assume it is.

I hope the OP gets this resolved quickly, this is on the dealer, they should never have allowed this to happen. 

I wouldn't write to them in the first instance, that's just adding an extra delay.  It's a lot harder for someone to fob you off when you're standing loudly in reception demanding your money back.

Within the first 6 months (outside of 30 days) you have to give them a chance to rectify the fault, which you have done.  They have demonstrably failed to fix it.  As I said earlier, if the repair will cause excessive inconvenience - which it has - you are entitled to a full refund.  If the repair will take an unreasonably long time - which again it has - you are entitled to a full refund.

This is the line I would be taking, you've got them over a barrel.  Fault inherent at time of purchase, they've had the opportunity to fix it and failed, monies back now kkthxbi.

Do not mention the word "warranty."  As soon as you do they can go "sorry mate, it's not covered."  Any warranty offered is in addition to your statutory rights, they can weasel out of a warranty claim but they cannot weasel out of the law.

Your contract is with the dealer that sold you the car. It’s there legal responsibility to sort you out. They are hoping that Vauxhall will pay for the work. But that’s between them and Vauxhall. So keep politely reminding them the dealings with Vauxhall are there issue.

F2F approach will need to wait a couple of days.

The car has a private plate on it which I want back, can't do that till tomorrow, and then wait to get a new log book.

Once I have that I can go in there first thing in the morning with the original plates and the rear row of seats from the Combo in the courtesy car and politely inform them I'll be waiting until the money is in my account.

I'm guessing this will be Thursday or Friday.

If by some miracle they fix the thing before then (and it has an 8mm chain fitted + the right oil) I guess I'll have to accept I've spent £80 putting the old plates on. But somehow I don't think they are going to have it repaired.

Funny thing is we bought an Aircross with a 1.2L Puretech engine from them three years ago, it's been faultless and it was a good experience dealing with them, we've always used the right oil with it and the belt was in good condition - we part ex it for the Combo.

And.. both the kids have Peugeots with the same basic engine, their belts needed changing so whoever had them before us didn't use the right oil - they are fine now.

Unfortunately I didn't hear about the 7mm chain issue until ours went.

Keep at them, I bought a 7yr old car with 78k on the clock, took me a while to fathom out it was using a litre of oil every 2k miles (had no physical dip stick) and even longer for the garage to acknowledge the fault but in the end got £8k of new engine fitted to a car that cost me £9k, all at their expense. Good luck with it all.

Went in today, they have verbally accepted that we are rejecting the car, have promised to call or email tomorrow with their offer - saying it won’t be sale price as we’ve put a couple of thousand miles on it, I’m waiting to see what this is, hoping it won’t be derisory/offensive…

Posted by: Cougar

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Within the first 6 months (outside of 30 days) you have to give them a chance to rectify the fault, which you have done.  They have demonstrably failed to fix it.  As I said earlier, if the repair will cause excessive inconvenience - which it has - you are entitled to a full refund.  If the repair will take an unreasonably long time - which again it has - you are entitled to a full refund.

This bit from Cougar. If their offer is offensive, you don't have to accept it. A couple of months and a small amount of milage ownership, I'd be thinking in the very low hundreds to walk away. Any more, reject it and send a letter before action. *

* Is it less than the 10k small claims limit?

The mileage discount probably works out similar to the compensation value for the grief and aggravation you've faced over the past few weeks n'est-ce pas?

It’s not less than 10k. I’ve said in the letter I left them (and emailed) that I expected them to take into account that we only had the vehicle 100 days, were massively inconvenienced, that they didn’t offer to collect the car and only offered a courtesy car after 4 weeks and on us physically going in. 

I don't think the Consumer Rights Act allows for a deduction based on use of the goods, it's refund of the price paid. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20

If the engine is dead the mileage is almost irrelevant, but that's not the point - I think they're trying it on. The cost of swapping the plates back will be yours, but you may also be able to claim for inconvenience, I haven't studied the Act that far.

Posted by: Greybeard

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I don't think the Consumer Rights Act allows for a deduction based on use of the goods, it's refund of the price paid. 

You're technically correct yes, but what you're missing here is that vehicles are an exception to the rule.  Between 30 days and 6 months they're allowed to adjust a refund based on usage.  What they aren't allowed to do though is take the piss.

Opinion rather than facts incoming: HMRC values personal mileage expenses at 45p/mile.  Depending on the vehicle we can write off maybe 15p/mile of that in fuel.  So, beyond £300 off the purchase price, I would be having an argument.  That's being generous even, how much have you paid in insurance to have it sat on their forecourt for months?

Have they reimbursed you for the tow truck and other expenses?  I'd be using that as leverage also if they start weaselling.

Opinion rather than facts incoming: HMRC values personal mileage expenses at 45p/mile.  Depending on the vehicle we can write off maybe 15p/mile of that in fuel.  So, beyond £300 off the purchase price, I would be having an argument.  That's being generous even, how much have you paid in insurance to have it sat on their forecourt for months?

That figure doesn't cover age-based depreciation which is (on a 4 year old car) likely to be fairly significant. A quick google suggests a '20 plate is worth about £2k less than a '21 plate so at roughly 6 months old, you'd be looking at a grand in depreciation

I thought 45p a mile did include depreciation? If 15p is on fuel fourth it’s not 30p a mile for tyres and oil.

I think you are right ampthill

Yeah, 45p does include a depreciation allowance. Plus, OP only had the use of it for just over 3 months. End of September to start of Jan, didn't even roll over a registration number change. 

Who wants to guess if they called today after promising to do so when we saw them F2F yesterday.

Hopefully the log book will arrive tomorrow, when it does I will be back in there and will politely wait until I've got my money back. 

Jebus, what a palaver. I hope you get sorted out soon. I saw a little news piece the other day about a bloke who was having a dispute with a Land Rover dealer over a failed Defender engine. He parked a truck across their garage entrance until agreed to replace it as a 'gesture of goodwill'. 😆

Sorry to read about all the dicking about you're having.

And to thank you for making me aware of this problem.  Vauxhall were already on the "don't this so" list after the abomination of a car (and particularly, though not just, the engine) that was in the Zafira I had a few years back.   This just heightens my  "avoid' at all costs" feeling. On top of anything with a wet belt !

The issue is if you want a Berlingo/Rifter/Combo/Doblo/ProAce City they all come with a chain issue in the Diesel (unless you get a post Feb '23 one, or a fixed one), or a wet-belt in the petrol, or a 150mile ish range in the electric. 

Arguably if @Nick had his repaired or the engine replaced, he'd be in the best position.

I have an extended warranty on mine, which should cover it if it goes. It is on 50,000 miles. The full new cam/carrier/chain kit inc timing belt and water pump is about £800, plus maybe 10 hours to fit. Easily £2000 ish. Maybe when I get to timing belt replacement time, it would be a good move.

I helped a friend successfully tackle a dealer demanding £5k repairs for a blown turbo 'not covered under warranty'.

First step, if you're within 6 months of purchase, reject the car in writing immediately. Give them one week to refund or you'll take further action. This won't work but you are setting up for the next step. You go to money claim online and fill in the forms for small claims, send them the forms as a pdf print out. Do this before actually submitting, by showing you know about the process and them receiving the official form as a draft will push them. If the car was under the £10k claim limit, you'll want claim for the purchase price. If the car was over £10k, get a quote for repair and submit for repair cost. You'll want to prepare this in advance while you await their response for rejecting the car, if you send the draft small claims on day 8, your promptness will further intimate them. When you send them the draft small claims, give them 2 weeks to resolve and the go ahead with submitting.

In the case of my friend, the garage fixed his car after we submitted and the paperwork from the court landed at the garage. Good luck.

With that short a timeframe, don't accept more than £1k lower than purchase price. If they offer less, go straight to small claims threat.

Posted by: solamanda

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don't accept more than £1k lower than purchase price

A grand for 3 months! I'd not accept more than 300 quid. Plus it's over the 'small claim' limit, we established that already. 

Posted by: solamanda

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I helped a friend successfully tackle a dealer demanding £5k repairs for a blown turbo 'not covered under warranty'.

First step, if you're within 6 months of purchase, reject the car in writing immediately. Give them one week to refund or you'll take further action. This won't work but you are setting up for the next step. You go to money claim online and fill in the forms for small claims, send them the forms as a pdf print out. Do this before actually submitting, by showing you know about the process and them receiving the official form as a draft will push them. If the car was under the £10k claim limit, you'll want claim for the purchase price. If the car was over £10k, get a quote for repair and submit for repair cost. You'll want to prepare this in advance while you await their response for rejecting the car, if you send the draft small claims on day 8, your promptness will further intimate them. When you send them the draft small claims, give them 2 weeks to resolve and the go ahead with submitting.

In the case of my friend, the garage fixed his car after we submitted and the paperwork from the court landed at the garage. Good luck.

Thanks, I don't understand how I can submit a small claims when the car was £15k and I cannot get a quote for a repair as I don't have the car and I don't know what the extent of the damage is (I can assume it needs a new engine but I don't know this).

When we spoke to them on Tuesday they verbally agreed to accept the rejection, and promised to call me back on Wednesday, I guess they were stalling.

My intention is to return this morning and push again, making it clear I will not be leaving until the matter is resolved.

I guess if this is not successful then I will have to instruct a solicitor.

If you are clear that you want to reject the van, I wouldn't confuse matters by bringing repair quotes into it. Just gives them more chance to stall you.

Best of luck today, keep us posted.

Posted by: chakaping

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If you are clear that you want to reject the van, I wouldn't confuse matters by bringing repair quotes into it. Just gives them more chance to stall you.

Best of luck today, keep us posted

This. ☝

Again:  Be clear.  You are rejecting the van under the Consumer Rights Act on the grounds that it had an inherent fault when you purchased it.  You have given them the opportunity to repair it and so have met your obligations under CRA, they have failed to rectify it in a timely manner and without unnecessary inconvenience to yourself.  You are therefore entitled to a full refund adjusted to take into account the use you've had out of the vehicle.  I would be tempted to try get them to offset this reduction by arguing about your out-of-pocket costs for tow trucks etc, but I'd be willing to roll over on this point if they stonewall you as you're then into lawyer territory and the only people who win in that scenario are the lawyers.

Why are you looking for repair quotes?  Stop it.

Why are you looking for repair quotes? Stop it.

He's not, that was Solomanders example of a way he had a similar situation resolved through small claims as the repair cost was less than £10k.

Just reject for a full refund. If they start with deductions, just contra it with your buggeration costs. Don't mess about muddying the waters with Small Claims, repair cost etc. It's simply not fit for purpose as it dunt work. 

Ok, so they have offered a refund, less 3503 miles x 45p = £1576.35, but reduced to £1250 (meaning £326 better for us). Which we will accept. Need to move on.

You could consider to use the wording you accept the offer 'without prejudice'. This would open up the opportunity to receive then refund and the claim for the deduction via the small claims method.

I'd counter-offer at 15p per mile, 45ppm is far too high, although you did do quite a lot of miles in the short time you had a working van.

a) I thought you said 1000 miles? and

b) 45p/mile running costs includes fuel you've paid for.  Counter with a grand.

Posted by: doomanic

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I'd counter-offer at 15p per mile, 45ppm is far too high, although you did do quite a lot of miles in the short time you had a working van.

3.5K in 102 days? Average UK van mileage is 12.5K, so I'd say it's spot-on, towards a bit low.

Posted by: Cougar

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a) I thought you said 1000 miles? and

b) 45p/mile running costs includes fuel you've paid for.  Counter with a grand.

No don't think I did, can't see that above.

I did consider pushing back for more, but I'm actually quite surprised they have agreed and I want to move on asap, sure £250 is a decent sum of money but fingers crossed I can get the refund into Premium Bonds this afternoon and win more on the draw 🙂

but fingers crossed I can get the refund into Premium Bonds this afternoon and win more on the draw

You need to have money in the NS&I account for a full month before it is eligible for a win. By then won't you have taken the money back out to buy a replacement vehicle?

Hmmm, been looking at Combo Life to replace our nearly 10 year old Zafira, sounds like Ill be looking at something else!

Posted by: John Doe

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but fingers crossed I can get the refund into Premium Bonds this afternoon and win more on the draw

You need to have money in the NS&I account for a full month before it is eligible for a win. By then won't you have taken the money back out to buy a replacement vehicle?

Ahh, you're right, thought if I bought today they would be in the March draw.

Might take me awhile before I can face spending hours searching for cars.