Mrs STR has so far had zero payback for Covid - can't claim the 80% self employed grant, due to dividends from my company. She has a barbers shop btw.
She spoke to the landlord a while ago to ask for the ratepayers letter to claim the £10k grant between her and the other girl in the premises. He seemed to think they weren't eligible, but after some pressuring, he gave the ratepayers letter.
Conversations were had regarding covering the rent and the rest going between the girls - nothing in writing, that would never have happened as much as it may be advised.
Unfortunately his bank account details had to go on the application, as he's the ratepayer (no rates are paid, due to small business rate relief).
The tone changed as soon as the money hit his bank and he's claiming that he's the business and they can get f******, but as a gesture, he'll reduce the rent by £15/week for a year - would take 5.5 years to claw back what he's rinsed them for!
So, they've had the lost revenue - still experiencing less footfall, all the ppe costs and other costs related to re-opening. He's suffered nothing, but pocketed £10k
Seems that this is how the rules work and we don't have a leg to stand on (seems it's happening quite a lot), so just a rant really.
Bombers or piss in shoes?
I know the bloke, but unfortunately the Mrs won't let me kick his head in.
Wait a year and torch his motor
AIUI neither your wife nor the landlord should have been eligible for the grant. Did she fill out the form honestly or was there some “fudging” shall we say?
AIUI neither your wife nor the landlord should have been eligible for the grant. Did she fill out the form honestly or was there some “fudging” shall we say?
No fudging - other than that, what are you talking about?
The rate payer is the one who is eligible for the grant.
Why is landlord paying the rates? I know that no money is given to the council but surely your wife should of claimed the relief.
If monies were owed to the council, the council would come after the tenant not the landlord.
I would speak to the council.
My question too^ why isn’t the tenant the rate payer? I had this problem because I took over a business in July last year and hadn’t registered as the rate payer. Neither the seller or I thought of it because the small business relief means nothing is paid at present. I got that sorted sharpish when the grant was announced.
Why is landlord paying the rates?
He originally fitted the shop out 14 years ago and on that basis, he claims to be the business owner and also has the ratepayer letter.
possibly you didn’t explain it well in the OP, but surely if your wife were eligible, the letter would’ve been sent to her & she could’ve used her own bank details? Likewise if the landlord were eligible, why did he need your wife to claim?No fudging – other than that, what are you talking about?
As to why the business owner(s) aren’t the ratepayers, sounds like a sub-letting situation, which may or may not be legit.
He originally fitted the shop out 14 years ago and on that basis, he claims to be the business owner and also has the ratepayer letter.
I think he's acting illegally.
He is not responsible for the payment of the rates and therefore he is not eligible for the grant.
I would get some legal advice.
Does your wife have a lease on the shop or is she in some other arrangement?
The documentation I received made it clear the grant was to be paid to the rate payer as at a specific date.
As to why the business owner(s) aren’t the ratepayers, sounds like a sub-letting situation, which may or may not be legit.
He may well have registered himself as King Street Barbers when the shop was initially set up and technically not doing anything wrong, other than being a c***
I think he’s acting illegally.
He is not responsible for the payment of the rates and therefore he is not eligible for the grant.
I would get some legal advice.
We will be speaking to the local council and maybe legal advice, but I've read an article in the independent stating that this is happening quite a lot and not much you can do about it
Does your wife have a lease on the shop or is she in some other arrangement?
It's a bit of a fag packet arrangement (there will be some form of contract somewhere, but we weren't what you would call in control of our shit 14 years ago - lol) - so, as I stated in my OP, we don't have a leg to stand on, just a bit hacked off
And to explain my situation I was not registered as the rate payer on the specified date although I should have been. I contacted the council, registered as the rate payer retrospectively then applied for small business rates relief then asked for the grant to be paid to me (due to the above it was now at their discretion whether to pay it to me or not). Stressy times as with less than a years trading I had not submitted any accounts and wasn’t going to get anything from the self employed scheme.
In short if your wife should have been responsible for the business rates that grant money should have been paid to her and the council can claw it back if paid to the wrong person. If she should not have been responsible for the business rates the grant is not for her
so, as I stated in my OP, we don’t have a leg to stand on, just a bit hacked off
I think you are right and I would be too. I’d probably speak to the council about the situation especially if I wanted to cause grief to the arsehole who wants the grant AND rent (unless there were potential fallout for me)
Is she a tenant, or does she occupy under a licence? That may be the difference.
Can I just check the following:
1. The Landlord is the one responsible in this arrangement for paying the rates.
2. No rates have been paid.
3. There was an informal, word of mouth contract about the rent being covered and split the grant between landlord (who didn't pay rates) and two tenants (who also didn't pay rates).
4. (Question) Mrs_str is paid via dividend from another company, reducing her tax burden out with her own business, but she is not paid as self employed from the business of the barber shop?
5. (Question) How many hours a week does she work for the other business?
There is an air here of government/our tax system allowing you to minimally pay into a system, and then dangling a £10k bonus with different rules when times are tough? The landlord had then capitalised on that situation, to his benefit but not his tenants.
1. The Landlord is the one responsible in this arrangement for paying the rates. Yes, maybe naively, we never questioned this - have a niggling feeling, that he is claiming to be 'King Street Barbers'
2. No rates have been paid. Not by anyone, due to SBRR
3. There was an informal, word of mouth contract about the rent being covered and split the grant between landlord (who didn’t pay rates) and two tenants (who also didn’t pay rates). Yes - albeit the landlord has the ratepayers letter
4. (Question) Mrs_str is paid via dividend from another company, reducing her tax burden out with her own business, but she is not paid as self employed from the business of the barber shop? She earns from her self employment at the barbers shop. She is paid dividends only from my company. It's not to reduce her tax liability at the barbers however - and does not facilitate as such. She can't claim for self employment @ 80% though, as the dividends exceed her shop trading profit
5. (Question) How many hours a week does she work for the other business? 5
2. No rates have been paid
I’m not sure why you are asking this? To be eligible for the grant you had to be eligible for small business rates relief so no one receiving the grant will actually have paid any business rates.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-youre-eligible-for-the-coronavirus-small-business-grant-fund
There is an air here of government/our tax system allowing you to minimally pay into a system, and then dangling a £10k bonus with different rules when times are tough? The landlord had then capitalised on that situation, to his benefit but not his tenants.
I'm not pleading poverty btw - we pay our taxes all above board and we do OK. My gripe is that my Mrs has had zero trading profit for the past 3-4 months and it's the landlord that has benefitted
I rent an office (which i run my business from currently) in a larger building and ive had a letters in the past from the VOA and council with a form to fill in regarding claiming the SBRR for my office / business. Its not a retail business, more project management.
Should i be entitled to the £10k handout ? Not had any correspondence to say i am. Covid has had a big impact on me.
Wish my accountant would let my missus take dividends from my company 🙂
I can answer this one as I have just been through it and several of the people formerly on our little business park enclave in sheffield have been discovered to have claimed fraudulently.
Basically it boils down to the fact these grants were handed out , In their words, "due to the fact these grants were handed out expediently" which I took to mean we basically handed them out to anyone and everyone that applied, and was actually told they are now doing a lot of catchup paperwork to justify them to central government.
There was a lot of small print ,people were not told when they applied .In my case name business adress and give name here you go sonshine. This has now come to light once the senior fraud investigator discovered who contacted me told me that certain people had already claimed for the Unit i occupy and asked who x is and what the connection is to the business.
Basically you are sent a questionairre confirming that YOU
were the proprietor or business owner of the business at that adresss
confirm the business address
confirm the business was and still is actively trading
confirm the bank account of the business and evidence trading through that account
confirm that accepting the payment you were eligible for state aid
The way it catches people out is that all the applications have now been uploaded and some clever system , it matches it to the names of companies on companies houseas ,self employed or sole traders you will have registered as such with HMRC right any other "businesses" seem to trigger an investigation if they cannot be cross referenced with the councils known occupeant......well thats how the lady on the dog and bone explained to me.
Amazingly some businesses were closed almost immediately after recieving grant funding, hmmmm.
If she pays the rates or her name is the trading name she is the one eligible to SBRR small business rate relief,it would be on the letterhead they sent showing zero rateable value, likewise if a sole trader T/A daves magic shop etc. The business limited name at address with the council is the other one, if your renting a unit as a hobby premises then you are not eligible for the grant (it turned out) even though you may get SBRR , So its not the property owner who can get the SBRR if they dont have a rates letter for a rented out with their name on it ,unit or property, she would also be liable subject to the recover process they have "yet to confirm" to get the monies back.
Your business had to actively been trading before the 11th of march from that specific location , and be able to show continued trading via a bank acount statement in my case and tennancy agreement since the first of the year for 12 months and Small business rates proof for the name or name of the business.
The landlord best make sure he has all his little ducks in a row if he thinks he got free money
My gripe is that my Mrs has had zero trading profit for the past 3-4 months and it’s the landlord that has benefitted
Agreed.
The fault though seems to be our Uber complex tax system and then a grant back that the landlord had nabbed to thier benefit.
I'm just becoming a huge fan of harmonisation of tax for any income - self employed, business income, dividends the whole 9 yards.
The rates system is also not really fit for purpose, and SBRR is a sticking plaster.
This grant is a sticking plaster on all that again.
The landlord best make sure he has all his little ducks in a row
I've read and taken in all of your comments, but I think he may (14 years ago) have reason to believe he 'set up' the business and rather than just being a landlord he is 'King Street Barbers' and they effectively rent 'chairs' rather than the property, albeit he has zero involvement with the business. There is some shaky ground but I fully believe he has all the cards at his disposal
OP,
Sounds like your wife is just renting "a barber seat/chair" as I think that is the normal practice.
It looks like the landlord is getting greedy when he sees the grant. Money makes people funny ...
I’m just becoming a huge fan of harmonisation of tax for any income – self employed, business income, dividends the whole 9 yards.
I'm not out for rinsing the tax system - I/we pay more than some people earn (and rightly so) and dividends aren't the tax break that they used to be.
However, there has to be some benefits for zero pensions, zero holiday pay, zero sick pay, zero guarantee of work - ok, I'm not paying tax if I'm not working, but still....
That said, I'm happy to pay the same as someone employed, as long as it's pro rata with all things considered.
Sounds like your wife is just renting “a barber seat/chair” as I think that is the normal practice.
It looks like the landlord is getting greedy when he sees the grant. Money makes people funny
Yep - it was all very nice until he saw the zeros land in his account.
My pet hate with the world and anything is how people act when it comes down to money. I'm fully aware I come across as a bit of a cock sometimes, but when it comes to money, I'd rather give someone my last tenner than steal it from someone
I’ve read and taken in all of your comments, but I think he may (14 years ago) have reason to believe he ‘set up’ the business and rather than just being a landlord he is ‘King Street Barbers’ and they effectively rent ‘chairs’ rather than the property, albeit he has zero involvement with the business. There is some shaky ground but I fully believe he has all the cards at his disposal
If he has he will have no problem showing this 14 years business trading as income or income from "his" business to the council 😉 If this is the case then effectively he may be all above board and as I understand he would be entitled, gentlemans agreement or not with his "occupants", All your wife has to do is ring the council and ask them if she is the ratepayer or not? Sorry I cant help any more than that I just rent a workshop from the council my affairs are maybe not so complex.
From my point of view it looks like councils have massively sp****ed millions and are now trying to recover whatever they can, In my estate many that were told yes you meet the criteria now dont and are being told to repay 10k after they have spent 5k of it on rent....ho hum it was a loan nothing more and hindsight i would have closed up shop rather than carry on for the 1500 quid I have earned.
Its also classed as earnings and must be included in your end of year calculations.
That said, I’m happy to pay the same as someone employed, as long as it’s pro rata with all things considered.
40% of your gross income? thats what I pay in tax, NI and pension contributions on a salary just above national average
And with that we can kiss goodbye to the original topic of this thread
40% of your gross income? thats what I pay in tax, NI and pension contributions on a salary just above national average
No, you don't - your pension contributions are irrelevant, they are savings
And with that we can kiss goodbye to the original topic of this thread
Yep, you know it 😂
My pension contributions are effectively another tax - revenue funded public sector pension
I'll just leave that there now - but if you want the same benefits as PAYE then you need to pay the same. A self employed pal of mine was moaning about this - I pointed out I pay as much tax etc in two months as he does in a year.
I’ll just leave that there now – but if you want the same benefits as PAYE then you need to pay the same. A self employed pal of mine was moaning about this – I pointed out I pay as much tax etc in two months as he does in a year.
How are self employed going to get the same benefits as PAYE however much tax we pay?
And I probably pay far more tax than you, so I'm not sure what your point is
Your personal pension payments are for your benefit, your NI covers your state pension
Back to the grants... My wife has been dealing with this for her bookkeeping clients and advises:
The landlord's business can be renting out chairs in the property he owns and he does not need to be receiving an income from being a barber, so nothing 'illegal' in claiming the grant on that basis, and him still being named as the ratepayer. Most renters of chairs do not have lease agreements that qualify them to be named as the ratepayer.
None of her clients had contracts in place that covered this scenario, so rent paid during lockdown has been an agreed on an individual basis - some have waived all rent as they are receiving the grant, others agreed half rent to keep their chair available for re-opening.
There was a discretionary grant available through your local council, which was exactly for people in your wife's position - businesses who had rental/property costs but weren't eligible for the original grant, https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-for-the-coronavirus-local-authority-discretionary-grants-fund#what-you-get. £4000 was the usual grant that her clients were eligible for. This scheme has now closed and grants paid out, but it might be worth getting in touch with your local council to see if they can help.
rather than just being a landlord he is ‘King Street Barbers’ and they effectively rent ‘chairs’ rather than the property, albeit he has zero involvement with the business.
Who owns the chairs? 🙂 Who submits the accounts for 'King Street Barbers'?
No rates are paid due to small business rates relief but he's claimed a grant for ratepayers?
None of that makes sense in my head.
I’m afraid that as ever in business get everything in writing and do not work to informal agreements. I can’t see that there is anything you can do here but reflect that you need to get the business relationship down in writing.
No rates are paid due to small business rates relief but he’s claimed a grant for ratepayers?
None of that makes sense in my head.
i know of 2 small businesses whos workloads increased due to covid (supplied components for nightingale hospitals). They both received the £10k grant. Work that one out 😉
They both received the £10k grant. Work that one out
The system is far from perfect, there are clear winners and losers. People are just claiming what they can because none of us know where we will be in 3 months time, 6 months time, ten years time.
The system is far from perfect, there are clear winners and losers.
Oh I agree. We pay rates on our Scout hut which we own. We are entitled to a grant. In fact, our local authority has just paid out grants rather than make people apply, with all the delays that may impose.
Badger the **** daily with emails, calls and texts until he guilts into a better reduction in rent or a share of the lump sum. Never let him forget and make starts to get your own salon asap.
The other girl has been to see the council - they've said that the situation is completely wrong but tough, nothing you can do about it.
Seems we may have some recompense through business insurance - didn't hold out much hope from what I'd read previously, but the FCA are taking insurance companies to the High Court this month to hold them to their policies and stop wriggling out on wording technicalities
Seems we may have some recompense through business insurance – didn’t hold out much hope from what I’d read previously, but the FCA are taking insurance companies to the High Court this month to hold them to their policies and stop wriggling out on wording technicalities
Sorry to be a further voice of doom, but I've done a bit on this through work and in all honesty most 'normal' business interruption insurance cover is unlikely to respond. The FCA test case is on interpretation of a number of sample wordings which may respond to 'epidemic' or illness. I wouldn't hold out hope for the majority of BI policies.
Sorry to be a further voice of doom, but I’ve done a bit on this through work and in all honesty most ‘normal’ business interruption insurance cover is unlikely to respond. The FCA test case is on interpretation of a number of sample wordings which may respond to ‘epidemic’ or illness. I wouldn’t hold out hope for the majority of BI policies.
Nah, it's fine - we either get it, or we don't. I won't be losing sleep over it.
The policy wording under loss of income is....
"Enforced closure due to notifiable infectious disease at the premises"
The catch being, that there wasn't an infection on the 'premises' - however, as I understand it, this is one of the technicalities being challenged, but I could be wrong
don't see how you can complain about the landlord playing by the 'rules' when you do exactly the same
don’t see how you can complain about the landlord playing by the ‘rules’ when you do exactly the same
What?
I'd have a wee chat with your local MP. A few of our clients fell through the cracks regards the £10k grant and he sorted each one out on their behalf.
There will be lots of empty retail spaces available with landlords desperate to fill them. Might be worth putting the feelers out to see if she can get a better, cheaper unit as soon as she can get out of the lease.
paying dividends to wife to avoid tax
paying dividends to wife to avoid tax
She's a director and company secretary
but does she actually do any work for the company other than signing a few bits of paper?
There will be lots of empty retail spaces available with landlords desperate to fill them. Might be worth putting the feelers out to see if she can get a better, cheaper unit as soon as she can get out of the lease.
This is pretty true two out of the three companies across from me closed up this morning by the looks ,A quick look on right move and across from us now theres a load more for rent than there was when i was starting looking 3 months ago.
Has she been paying rent throughout?