[i]I'm sorry pays for all what? You pay my taxes, no. Ah you pay my wages? No. You pay my union fees? No. So I'm sorry what us it you pay for? Ah must be my pension? No not that either.
[/i]
LOL I've lost count how many times i've said that to people. 😀
As long as we get to see Bob Crow's head on a spike outside the Tower, I really don't mind. 😉
Unionised workplace no matter what the sector have better terms and conditions.
Gosh - I didn't realise that the heads of the banking industry were union members
I could be wrong, and it's not a position I wholeheartedly agree with, but I think ps44's point is that the private sector create wealth that the govt tax, and govt subsequently spend that tax on the public sector. It's an argument that the private sector are the 'engine room' of the economy, and the first to feel the pinch and (unlike the public sector) relatively unprotected from the forces of economic downturn. The corollary of this is that public sector unions arguably see their job as (or are seen as doing the job of) lobbying the govt to keep their protections in place. Even when the wealth / tax receipts clearly aren't there to pay for their demands. As a result of such perceptions, many private sector workers and media commentators see unionised public sector workforces' complaints as disconnected from reality. Selfish even. I would say that the unions have a significant challenge on their hands to address such perceptions, going by the coverage they get in the press. Bob Crow would seen to be the epitome of this, in that he has clearly been successful in achieving salary gains for his members. At what PR cost though, for his Union, his members, the sector and the Union movement as whole?
I read this thread as "are unicorns disappearing" and then thought "They're extinct aren't they?"
Having worked for unionised and no unionised companies in the oil and gas industry I'd have to say I prefererd having a union.
To a certain extent the fact that companies are getting better at looking after the health and safety, equal opportunities etc. of their workers (ie following legislation) reduces the need for this kind of representation somewhat.
Rather than laying people off, an across the board paycut - would you prefer that perhaps?
already happening in the NHS. No April cost of living pay rise for next 3 years = pay cut, non? They are already talkng about giving NHS employees the option of one or other form of freezes on their pay increments too.
Unions should be made illegal.
I hope their (our) times not coming to an end, or that would be me out of work.
Speaking as a fulltime union official, its not at all about striking. It's about defending jobs, public services, communities, your childrens futures, pensions, and thats just for starters. Fact is that the country is facing the most savage attack from its own government since the 'years of the witch'.
If you want to see what happens when Tory economic and social policy is applied have a day out in Redcar, or Ravenscraig or any other town or community that had its heart ripped out in the eighties.
I could go on all day (and do most days , as that's what I get paid for).
A lot of people on here have already started raising concern over the privatisation of forestry land. Maybe we all need to look a bit further and see what other 'wonderful' ideas Mr Cameron has to sell off, I would say the family silver, but the witch did that with coal and steel etc.
Admittedly not everyone will be affected badly by te cuts, I suppose the toffs will benefit and a few 'I'm alright Jack f##k you' types with little or no moral conscience may profit off the backs of the rest of us. But for the majority you will be affected in a negative way. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.
March the 26th London - I'll see you there.
socialism and peace !
Unions should be made illegal.
Why? A little bit of justification for your ludicrous statement might help somewhat...
I read this thread as "are unicorns disappearing" and then thought "They're extinct aren't they?"
No.
already happening in the NHS. No April cost of living pay rise for next 3 years = pay cut, non? They are already talk about giving NHS employees the option of one or other form of freezes on their pay increments too.
Yup pay freeze for at least 3 years and yes increments might be next, I get my last increment next month anyway though. Pay freeze is kind of fair enough doing our thing, increment freeze is give little incentive for promotion though.
LOL I've lost count how many times i've said that to people.
It's just such utter rubbish to say "I pay your wages!" anyone who pays tax and NI pays towards NHS pay, including those employed by the biggest employer the NHS.
Good luck with a no Unions future. The race to the bottom would kick off in earnest then and will affect everyone. The lowest common denominator approach is why everyone wants to move here from Uzbekikuristan or wherever.
Civil disturbance is likely to start in earnest if the government goes too far and at some point the police will not follow political orders like they did in the recent student protests..
I bloody wish they were coming to an end. Bunch of lefty whinging cocks who would rather see a company go out of business than actually get off their collective fat arses and do something about it. Upon closure of many a manufacturing company, the last thing heard has been "it's managements fault..."
knobbers.
Yes I run a manufaturing comapny.
So with a lot of councils and other places loosing jobs or closing down, just where are all these new union joining members going to come from.
Oh and a few workplaces have said they will strike, in defence of anounced redundancies, sadly that may be the final straw for the company to close or go bust.
A survey by the Taxpayers’ Alliance found that Birmingham employed:
* Nine European officers at a cost of £246,523
* Twenty-eight diversity officers at a cost of £1,916,657
* Two climate change officers at a cost of £97,914
The total cost to the city was £2,261,094.
A survey by the Taxpayers’ Alliance found that Birmingham employed:* Nine European officers at a cost of £246,523
* Twenty-eight diversity officers at a cost of £1,916,657
* Two climate change officers at a cost of £97,914The total cost to the city was £2,261,094.
Sounds reasonable value to me, just need a few more people with a grasp of climate change and its potential effects too. Birmingham has a substantial ethnic minority does it not? I presume quite a few pay council tax, surely it doesn't hurt for a council to understand where their culture's coming from? Likewise, as Brum is the UK's 2nd city, knowing a little about the wider economy in which it sits probably doesn't hurt either.
The total cost to the city was £2,261,094.
Which is more than covered by the £23 million Birmingham City Council gets every year in EU funding as a result of their lobbying.
Birmingham City Council does not employ any diversity officers. It does however have to ensure that it complies with government legislation concerning non-discrimination, equal access to services, etc.
[b][i]Ill-informed tabloid fuelled rants, is their time coming to an end ?[/i][/b]
As an aside, I work for E.On in the IT department. We are all being outsourced to HP (sort-of EDS). When we found out that outsourcing was going to happen there was a massive sudden uptake in union membership (me included) as people were/are scared to death they are going to lose their jobs and think that perhaps being in a union will help a bit, if only for redundancy terms.
And, having been a part of an enormous company (private) I can assure everyone that the old rhetoric that 'businesses are lean and mean while government is bloated and heavy' is just not true. The sheer amount of waste I see happening around me is phenomenal!
Unions and managers, united in destroying business prospects since a long time ago........
Do the unions have an official line on how they would tackle paying back the mountain of debt that Tony and Gordon's NuLabour experiment left us all with?
Genuine question.
As an aside, I work for E.On in the IT department. We are all being outsourced to HP (sort-of EDS).
Eds: good at playing golf with company directors, good at writing very expensive contracts. Less good reputation for actually writing code and doing sensible requirements / user interface design etc., or so I hear.
Oh and don't get me started on the joys of out sourcing coding work to India - what a complete waste of time and money that was.
enfit - there is a well known answer from the left. Fair tax, go after tax avoiders seriously, tax non doms. Stimulate the economy and growth will do it over time.
Thing is companies such as news international and tesco pay next to no tax. if they paid their fair share then the issues would be far less
This governments approach will not pay back the debt as they send us into recession again and increase spending on benefits and decrese tax take due to contraction of the economy
Anyone? 😮
TJ, as usual you walked straight into that one and took the bait.
The clue was in the fact that enfht was asking the question.
And by adding "genuine question", enfht simply reinforced it for me that he wasn't asking a genuine question.
Mind you, you did give a fairly crap answer imo.
Fair enough ernie - a little heard of thinking today after last nights night shift.
Do the unions have an official line on how they would tackle paying back the mountain of debt that Tony and Gordon's NuLabour experiment left us all with?Genuine question.
it is a loaded question and as I say repeatedly on here blaming the labour governmetn for the sub prime crash in America and subsequent world wide economic downturn/ recession is a little short sighted. Every country has been affected so blaming an individual country/govt rather than say bankers, capitalsim whatever is a bit short sighted.
you may criticies their reaction - but seeing as Gordon persuaded the world to do quantitive easing and is largey seen as positively contributing to the recovery - which seems to be going so well under the Tories- even by the right wing press.
Blaming them for the situation is as daft as is blaming the Tories for the current situation. What a reasonable person would do is ask whether their reaction to the crisis helped or exacerbated the problem.
to answer your question no the unions do not as they do not need an answer as they are not a political party.
Do the BMA or the the Womens Institute have an economic policy for the current situation? Do you expect them to have one?
Gosh - I didn't realise that the heads of the banking industry were union members
They do belong to organisations that promote and protect their interests, so like a union, but far worse for us.
We're f00ked!
No we're not, we never got anywhere near to the level of problems of Ireland/Greece.
Not saying the latter wouldn't have occurred if Br0one had stayed in.
There would have been cuts, but probably not to the level of what the current Government are trying to do, too fast, too deep.
Unionised workplace no matter what the sector have better terms and conditions.
errr, no.
collected bargaining staff (unionised) got just as a rubbish deal as the non-collectively bargained staff when UNISON etc let the pension scheme get dumped at my place. (They [b] UNISON etc recomended acceptance of the proposed changes[/b])
Listen to their campaign to save public sector pensions which get funded out of my direct and in-direct taxes (by salaries and direct contributions or "in year funding") no thank you. I'll [b]recommend they accept the proposed changes[/b]. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander
project - Member
"A survey by the Taxpayers’ Alliance"
Oh come [i]on[/i], you can't actually be using the Taxpayer's Alliance as a source can you? Everyone knows they're dingbats.
you can't actually be using the Taxpayer's Alliance as a source can you?
Yup, a bunch of self-appointed individuals with non-jobs, who claim to speak on behalf of all taxpayers, included me, despite the fact that no one elected them.
Of course if they really believed the things they accuse Birmingham City Council of, then they could stand for election themselves. I guess the thing only that stops them is the knowledge that no one would vote for them.
BTW, despite calling themselves the Taxpayers Alliance, the Taxpayers Alliance avoid paying tax by claiming they are a "charity" ....... a slight stretching of the meaning of the word "charity" I reckon.
I doubt that Unions are going to cease to exist entirely, but I suspect that unions will become far less powerful within the public sector.
The simple fact is that public sector workers are generally reasonably paid, enjoy decent T&Cs and decent pensions. Some parts of the public sector are either overstaffed or straight out slack. Near enough everyone in the private sector knows someone working in the public sector, and they know all of the above. And most people can see that whilst the private sector has had a massive correction, the public sector correction has been delayed until after the general election.
Add all that together, and the result is that a sizeable proportion of voters will be about as supportive of union action as they would be of free botulism in school dinners.
Strangely today in Liverpool where 1500 jobs are going, with sefton and wirral as neighbours they had a demonstration against the cuts and only 500 turned up,according to the local news, so much for union power mobilising the workers to protest.
TandemJeremy - Member
enfit - there is a well known answer from the left. Fair tax, go after tax avoiders seriously, tax non doms. Stimulate the economy and growth will do it over time.Thing is companies such as news international and tesco pay next to no tax. if they paid their fair share then the issues would be far less
Just for the record TJ in 2010 Tesco paid £840m in tax on profits of £3,176m, hardly "next to no tax". Sure, they get away with few dodgy off-shore tricks, but not on the scale you suggest.
The Unions are in self harm.
🙄
I wonder how much of the tax "dodged" by Tesco is just them paying their taxes where they made their profits. They certainly didn't take £3B+ in profits just from the UK market.
Fair enough Pembo but they are involved inmassive avoidance
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/13/tesco-revives-jersey-vat-avoidance
http://taxjustice.blogspot.com/2008/02/tescos-tax-tricks.html
destroyed the miners.
It's a little known fact that the James Callaghan government, previous to the battle axe's administration, actually shut down more pits than the she devil did.
I work with a load of ex miners. A shower of greedier ba5tards you will never meet. They have had pay outs for white finger, emphysema, knee wear and tear, DIY (as in, they ahd to get tradesmen to do work for them), they are even putting in claims now for male pattern baldness!.
Some guys I work with have had over 100k in compensation, and earn more in compo pensions, than they do in wages at work (40k per annum).
And you also tend to find they don't like to get their hands dirty, imagine a 'miner', no getting dirty!.
Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
bring down the government before they wreck the country
Corporations taking advantage of (legal) tax avoidance:
a) of course they do, wouldn't we all if we could? Why else are so many complaining VAT has gone up. No-one likes paying tax, whether an individual or businessman and we all like to avoid it if we can
b)if they're not paying tax then they're keeping the money. What are they doing with it? Not sticking it under the matress. Either a) re-investing it in the business (= more jobs) or b) giving it to shareholders (who are either private individuals or institutional investors like pension funds who are investing on behalf of..... private individuals
To slay them for avoiding paying tax is far too simplistic and assuming that no-one benefits from them doing it
The 'economic problem'
I love the way we all think we know what's wrong and how to fix it. Sorry, b*llocks. The brightest and most educated people in the world don;t know how this happened or how to fix it. The world has never faced a crisis like it. No-one can say Brown caused it or that Condems are making it worse, getting it wrong. It's all conjecture, there's simply no-one alive today with the experience or brains to have seen this coming, stop it and fix it.
Most people's responses are, IMO, emotional and totally tainted by their own (narrow) experience and political bias, and neither approach can possibly give you the whole picture.
In a crisis you need positve attitudes, constructive criticism and teamwork. I'd like to see more of that.
And basically, accept that it's not going to be like it was. Let's get over it, accept we're still better off than almost everyone else in the world, and ride our (generally) rather expensive bikes and be grateful we have the wealth to afford them and leisure time to ride them
Rant over 🙂
In a crisis you need positve attitudes, constructive criticism and teamwork. I'd like to see more of that.
Well I will certainly try my best in the future, I promise.........thanks for the pep talk.
Unions aren't coming to an end, but the organisations and businesses that they have a hold over are!
They are still strong in organisations where money rolls in regardless of the strength of the economy, such as the public sector. Where left wing ideology sits well with these organisations' ethos.
However, spending cuts will be giving these people a wake up call and no doubt will have the unions pushing for more strikes.
The remaining private companies still crippled by unions will eventually go under. They don't seem to realise there's a big recession going here, or understand the precipitous situation businesses are in because of the economic climate.
Cliffs and lemmings spring to mind!
Happy days!
DELETED engaing with spongebob is pointless
They don't seem to realise there's a big recession going here.....
Big recession ? Aren't you jumping the gun a bit spongebob ?
A recession is two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Britain only went back into negative growth in the last quarter of 2010. So we need another quarter of negative growth before it can be called a recession.
Therefore we are not in recession, let alone a "big recession".
Of course due to this government's economic policies it is very likely that Britain will go back into recession. We might even get a "big recession". But give it a bit of time before you completely dismiss the Tory government's handling of the economy, ffs.
I have to say spongebob, I had no idea that you had so little faith in the Tory government's economic policies.......you certainly have ever given that impression before 😕
......but anyhow, welcome aboard anyway ! 🙂
Papa_Lazarou - Memberbring down the government before they wreck the country
Form a political party of your own then put your ideas to the country and see if they people support you. If not then try not get your knickers in a twist.
😆