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I said in my first or second post that was favourable to unions
But not so favourable that you'll stump up for them to negotiate on your behalf.
It’s not a good membership sales pitch now…we held things up and got less. Blaming the non members who they didn’t engage with isn’t going to get them on side for next time… “So I pay my subs to support you after you got a worse deal fo everyone than if you’d stayed out of it”.
Big assumptions you're making there.
If there was no union, your pay deal might have been 3% rather than 8%. And you'd just be told that's the decision, like it or lump it.
My employer tried that last year, without engaging with the union. I voted to strike, not really due to the mediocre offer, but because for the first time during my 20 year employment they decided they didn't need to discuss with the union and implemented the rise.
We went on strike, and got a better deal. Not massively better for me as it was two successive flat rate payments, but the lower grades did well out of it.
This year the CEO left and the employer agreed an offer with the union first and it was voted in by members.
I don't agree with a lot of the union tactics and they've done F all against a company wide cost saving measures resulting in thousands of 'voluntary' redundancies (your office is closing and you'll either need to relocate 300 miles away, or find yourself another job in the business) and increased offshoring of staff, plus the workforce is divided so we don't come across as one voice.
Big assumptions you’re making there.
@ransos Yes in fairness I am taking the OP's account at face value and in deliberately simplistic terms to remove a lot of typing and waffle.
It was intended to be illustrative of the wider point a union might do better by not isolating themselves completely from non members at a high level, while of course maintaining appropriate privacy/separation on member only discussions.
Many of the big disputes we've seen in recent months the unions have been quite good at articulating those factors very publicly. I think that's generally a good thing. They've done this to try and bring the public on side as well as the politicians/decision makers and presumably if you were a non-union medic, train driver etc. you might have been encouraged to join during that period.
Have you tried asking the reps what happened and why? A lot of what you hear may be gossip or half the truth.
As above without a union I think a largeish employer would have been very unlikely to offer an 8% pay raise unless there is a mass exodus of staff going on.
If you think the union reps are doing a bad job then join the union and challenge them, become a rep and help your fellow employees. If you do a better job then everyone is happy.
Complaining from the sidelines will do nothing. Without unions we wouldn't get paid holidays, safe workplaces and all those things we now take for granted.
I've been in a presentation today with unions really standing up and fighting for jobs and communities. We need them to help us all make a better workplace and better world.
What is bizarre is where employers consider the sole voice of the workforce in negotiations to be a union that only 30% of the workforce are members of.
What would you propose instead?
Pay rises based on performance and individual negotiations.
Pay rises based on performance and individual negotiations.
Can't do that in the public sector, posts are graded.
Despite multiple promotions in the interim, accounting for inflation my salary is broadly the same as it was 15 years ago. My most recent pay rise was 1% and that was higher than some years.
Funnily enough, my employer offered to renegotiate when I had a job offer in my hand.
And that is my likely next steps. We've had over half my team leave in the last 12 months for jobs better paid elsewhere; my sector is very in demand just now.
Most likely scenario is get a new job offer and see what leverage my boss can exert for a better offer.
ransosFree Member
I said in my first or second post that was favourable to unions
But not so favourable that you’ll stump up for them to negotiate on your behalf.
I certainly won't be crossing their palms with silver now!
I’ll certainly won’t be crossing their palms with silver now!
You weren't anyway!
If your employer negotiates with a union as part of a collective bargaining agreement, you have to be in the union to have a say on the offer - or benefit from the other support a union provides.
If your employers doesn’t do collective bargaining with anyone, you have to accept whatever they give you anyway.
The problem in many businesses - and in the civil service where I am - is that only half of staff are in the union, which reduces the unions bargaining power, as well as encouraging a "divide and rule" environment among the workforce.
And when tne union rejects an offer that was half of the inflation rate at the time, the employer just imposes it anyway.
Pay rises based on performance and individual negotiations.
Always tends to go well for blaggers and manipulators in large organisations.
Attitudes on this depend mostly on the size of your employer, if it has shareholders who never meet the staff, etc.
For the first time in 20 years, I’m in an organisation that doesn’t recognise a union for collective bargaining. I was offered a 1% pay rise…<br /><br />
Welcome the NHS.
As an aside, it did irritate me when non members enjoyed a decent pay rise, having contributed nothing toward achieving it. I’ve lost pay due to strikes on more than one occasion…
Some can’t afford to go without that loss, others choose not because they don’t agree with it. You need to be peeved at the initial crap offer, not your colleagues.
Some can’t afford to go without that loss, others choose not because they don’t agree with it. You need to be peeved at the initial crap offer, not your colleagues.
People don't agree with it but are happy to take it thanks to others making a sacrifice. Nice.
Start your own bargaining group is the answer
voodoo_chile
Full Member
Start your own bargaining group is the answer
A Union you mean?
If you'd received the original offer you'd have been happy to freeload on the back of those union members who had contributed?
As an ex union rep, it’s a thankless task involving a lot of unpaid work, constant threats from management and no tangible reward.
If you and other freeloaders like you had joined the union in the first place, you'd now be better off.
An anecdote from the 90's.
I worked in retail, a company with around 60 stores across the country from memory.
Sunday trading came in, remember that? Lol
Well, the company I worked for were utter sh*ts about it. You know how it goes, it's not what they are doing but the way it's done. Pretty much everyone in our branch moaned about it and no doubt many in other branches did too.
A friend mentioned joining a Union and before I knew it a whole 3 of us had joined. There were around 40 employees in our store.
Initially the company didn't care, in fact 2 of us were hauled into the office ostensibly to investigate a prank phone call made from the store to a member of staff. It was genuinely nothing to do with us. It was also obvious our manager wasn't impressed with us informing him we'd joined a Union. He went out of his way to make it clear the company didn't recognise a Union.
The company carried on being utter sh*ts with regards to the new contract we all had to sign and we forwarded it and a copy of the new employee manual we were all given to our union rep.
Anyway...
Before we knew it and within a week, a Union rep is in our branch together with a lawyer. Our area manager was also there and we were invited to sit in.
Suffice to say, the manager and AM were told in no uncertain terms that the contract they were demanding us to sign wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. They were also left under no illusions that if any unjustified pressure was applied on the three of us that they had better cross every T and dot every i or they would be having a constructive dismissal case against them.
I wont lie, as a young 20 something, seeing our manager and AM being torn to bits, politely, was delicious. Also an eye opener.
The company had to redraft a new contract for every employee across the company and issue a new hand book.
We were the only 3 that joined a Union across the whole company. Everyone else moaned but did nothing.
I'm sure milages may vary but it made me very aware from a young working age that without counter balances at work such as unions you are at their complete mercy if a company decides to treat you like sh*t.
I've been pro Union ever since.😁
RustySpannerFull Member
If you’d received the original offer you’d have been happy to freeload on the back of those union members who had contributed?As an ex union rep, it’s a thankless task involving a lot of unpaid work, constant threats from management and no tangible reward.
If you and other freeloaders like you had joined the union in the first place, you’d now be better off.
did you miss the bit about the union delaying the pay rise then finally agreeing a worse offer than was originally offered 9 months ago aye?
they’ve achieved hee haw other than losing support from the workforce. So no, I wouldn’t be better off as a member. I would be better off if they had done nothing though. 😏
I would be better off if they had done nothing though.
Did you miss the bit about without the union, the offer probably wouldn't have been 8% ?
You might have been, depends how well you could negotiate your own rise. Past experience shows that loads would have been worse off, because experience shows that people individually aren't as good as a collective bargain. YMMV of course, and depends on the union rep / negotiating team too.
did you miss the bit about the union delaying the pay rise then finally agreeing a worse offer than was originally offered 9 months ago aye?
they’ve achieved hee haw other than losing support from the workforce. So no, I wouldn’t be better off as a member. I would be better off if they had done nothing though. 😏
I don't know the full story and as a non member, neither do you.
I do know that the negotiating power of a union is dependent on the size of the membership.
You chose not to join and by doing so weakened their power to negotiate a better deal.
Your fault, not the unions.
I think you can be generally in favour of unions and also believe that they get it wrong in some instances.
Always tends to go well for blaggers and manipulators in large organisations.
And men over women.
And men over women.
Amen.
politecameraaction
Free Member
I think you can be generally in favour of unions and also believe that they get it wrong in some instances.
Just people, like the rest of us.
I met some genuinely appalling people who were union reps, 'grifters' is putting it nicely. However, the vast majority were just decent people trying to help.
Most of the cases I helped with were to do with sexual harassment and bullying.
As to pay negotiation, it varied:
One company I worked for was initially a Co-Operative (literally THE Co-Operative) and pay negotiations lasted five minutes - we would go and see the boss, he would make a generous offer, guarantee to improve staff benefits for everyone and we would shake hands.
He was fantastic. He once explained that he was investing in a better, free canteen because the majority of his staff were from a poor background and would rather give their pay to their families than feed themselves properly. He recognised the benefits of a well fed, happy workforce.
A gentleman of the old school.
I've also had to negotiate with the lying, rapacious shysters who replaced him when the company was sold.
No interest in the welfare of their staff, would do anything, legal or not to save a penny.
I'm a member of the RCN now. A whole different ball game.
voodoo_chile<br />Full Member<br />Start your own bargaining group is the answer<br />A Union you mean?
Of course ,how else would you have a bargaining group with full legal backing
He once explained that he was investing in a better, free canteen because the majority of his staff were from a poor background and would rather give their pay to their families than feed themselves properly. He recognised the benefits of a well fed, happy workforce.
I remember getting the cheap ham joint at Xmas… would collect it from the canteen in the basement of CIS. Also used to steel a few mini cheeses at lunchtime to make pizza for tea (a cheap naan bread with said mini cheeses cut up on it and put under the grill). Left soon after the “merger” when the environment changed quickly. Although by that point I could afford actual pizza.
Didn’t it just go downhill.
The basement canteen was a thing of wonder.
As were the gyms, the sports teams, all the things that created loyalty and a huge sense of wellbeing amongst thousands of people working in a huge building in the centre of Manchester.
It was like a vertical village.
The union and the management worked together to provide a fantastic service which was run for the mutual benefit of their customers, the business and the employees.
It was like a vertical village.
Bike storage, changing rooms, showers… little newsagents in the corner of the canteen.
Ballroom was out of action most of my time there though.
The union and the management worked together to provide a fantastic service which was run for the mutual benefit of their customers, the business and the employees.
When being a member (don’t call them customers 😉) meant something.
I'm saddened by the union bashing in this thread:
Remember that membership is not just for Me Me Me, it's mostly about protecting others that the employer would otherwise screw over.
Without unions, where would your sick pay, paid holidays and safe working conditions be? Employers only do this when their hands are forced.
Just because there seems to be a temporary set back doesn't mean that the system isn't working. You may not have all the information, the union negotiators may have lost out for some reason, or maybe were just mistaken in their aims.
Finally, all this "screw the union, I'll make my own way" would have made a certain spam-hoarder from Grantham very happy indeed ☹️
APF