[Closed] Undertaking cars on the road, the law???

cyclist at fault. Undertaking is a crazy thing to do around junctions on a bike. As you say, people die like that.

you will have a load of darwin contenders along at some point to tell you that its ok tho

no doubt!

I believe most cycling deaths in London last year were people getting crushed by left-turning lorries.
I cycle in London a lot and have pretty much stopped filtering on the left after finding that out, as well as my own observations as a driver.
Either staying in the line of traffic or filtering on the right for me. Drivers can't see you and you're putting yourself at risk IMO

Yeah as i said with tarmac theyve gone with big stickers on the rear left of the lorries. Such a blind spot between front and rear wheels, especially on 8 wheelers

cyclist at fault. Undertaking is a crazy thing to do around junctions on a bike. As you say, people die like that.

Plus one.

Never undercut at a junction. You will die soon. End off!

I know for a fact that this cycling manouver and resulting deaths/accidents is why Tarmac are sticking big signs on the arse end of their concrete lorries!

I dont think thats the real reason behind cycle deaths and lorries. Check out some of the stats on moving target...

Never intentionally undertake moving traffic, but yes there will be some along in a minute to explain that not undertaking would '[i]not make it worthwhile[/i]' to cycle/commute to work as it would be slower.

@Dmiller,
i actually saw a docu on the emergence of the ghost bikes in london a few years back, and tarmac had some input during the show. At the time they said about the possible use of signage on their lorries, true to their word (and nice to see from a big company) said signage has started to appear!

And i wasnt on about lorries and bike accidents in general. just the "left turn blind spot scenario"

Signs are not going to make a huge difference - fair play for doing it but the kind of person that undercuts a lorry isn't going to look at a sign. I saw someone on my commute undercut a bus at a bus stop yesterday morning and they have signs on the back around here... One of the peds getting of the bus caught the commuter in a superb clothesline tho. Far better than any sign! 😀

I used to do it but have changed my ways after someone got out of the passenger seat and nailed me with the door. My fault really and while i suppose the passenger shoudl have checked i take the blame. ****n hurt though. Now i gaily ride down the middle of the lane and make sure I never go on the inside of anything large about to turn left , saw some bloke having to jump over a barrier once with his bike as a double trailer with a big digger on it almost crushed him. He was as white as a sheet afterwards, as was I.

Kind of fell foul of this on the way home tonight, a few cars overtook and then braked 50 yards down the road for the fella turning right. I'm just maintaining speed so undertake the first cautiously. Second bloke definitely sees me, as he moved about a foot closer to the kerb to try and halt my advance 🙄

That said, I'll always overtake if I can, at least you can see the oncoming traffic about to **** you over 😉

Second bloke definitely sees me, as he moved about a foot closer to the kerb to try and halt my advance

Thats different. Thats being a **** in a car. 😀

Richpenny - had something similar tonight.
On my way to our regular night-ride, approaching a junction on a road with two regular-sized lanes. Lights were red ahead & a big black 4x4 revved up, overtook me then pulled in hard to the kerb - close enough that his wheels were touching the pavement edge.
I could only assume he was doing this in order to prevent any possible filtering whilst the traffic was stationary.
I could have hopped on the pavement & gone past, instead i amused myself by pointing, laughing & making the 'small willy' sign with my little finger! 😆

[IMG] [/IMG]right in the middle of a cyclepath/footpath

+1 for the small willy sign and laughing at shit drivers! It infuriates them far far more than a load of obscenities ever could!

I think you have to be pretty retarded to undertake cars when there's a left turn coming up or when there's multiple lanes and cars crossing between them (say three lanes approaching a roundabout as on my daily commute).

i have a rule now - no riding on the inside unless its an official cycle path . always over take traffic on the outside

I blame the woman in the Micra, because as far as I've ever seen, there isn't one good Micra driver the the whole of the world !!!! Hate them with a passion. They just seem to get in, and switch their brain off at the same time as they start the engine. Completely oblivious to any law of the road and anyone else around them !!! And always always sit in the middle lane at 55MPH. GGGGGRRRRRRR

I always ride on the road with the assumption that I am invisible to drivers and therefore try and anticipate their actions, i.e someone making a turn without indicating or someone opening a car door without checking to make sure there isn't a bike bearing down on them.

Touch wood I'm yet to have any mega close shaves.

But what about when there's a red strip on the left hand side of the road? I still prefer to move out to pass cars on the right, but then drivers shout at me for not using the cycle lane 🙁

If you overtake a queue on the left you can't see oncoming vehicles that might be turning right. And you've got nowhere to go if drivers start edging out from side roads on the left.

Make your own decision about where you should position yourself - just because there's a strip of red tarmac doesn't mean you should use it and put yourself in harms way.

So you overtook a cyclist at 20mph (ie. marginally quicker than him), to join a queue of traffic going slower than the cyclist. And then you consider the CYCLIST to be doing something wrong?
F^&*ing typical that is.

(that's how the situation reads to me anyway)

Yesterday, car in front of me at some recently-changed-to-green lights slowed right down almost to a stop before turning left, as if [i]expecting[/i] me to undertake them. I guess that must have happened to them before? I didn't undertake, and even had to give them a little wave to say I was keeping my place between them and the car behind me.

So you overtook a cyclist at 20mph (ie. marginally quicker than him), to join a queue of traffic going slower than the cyclist. And then you consider the CYCLIST to be doing something wrong?
F^&*ing typical that is.

Crap Troll 1 / 10.

He was in moving traffic. The traffic slowed for a junction, the bike didn't. The OP was questioning the undertaking manoeuvre of the cyclist.
No mention of poor overtaking of cars. I suppose you've never safely overtaken a cyclist in fluctuating traffic 🙄

[i]So you overtook a cyclist at 20mph (ie. marginally quicker than him), to join a queue of traffic going slower than the cyclist. And then you consider the CYCLIST to be doing something wrong?
F^&*ing typical that is.[/i]

That's my pet hate that one. SO many times on my commute I get overtaken by someone desperate to be the required 6" off the rear bumper of the car in front of them, even when it's stationary.
Very few drivers are capable of reading the road and thinking "I won't overtake cos I'm just coming up to a width restricted area/junction/roundabout/set of lights* and I'll only end up cutting the poor cyclist up".
People see a cyclist and they just think "I must overtake, NOW!"

On the other hand, cyclists undertaking traffic is just dangerous, especially round large/long vehicles or vans with bigger blind spots.

*delete as applicable

guys... hate to sound oldmanish, but after commuting for 5 years or so, i took a delinerate decision to take it steady this year.

sit up more, dont sprint... slide past when safe but otherwise wait your turn.

journey is 100% less stressfull, i get pulled out on half as much as before, and have far fewer incidents.

when i was racing in i'd genuinely have at least one dangerous incident per commute...

seriously hacks me off when moped riders think its fine to use the cycle lane to undertake...at 40 mph when traffic is a t a standstill....hang em i say! 😈

As a road cyclist and previously a serial cycle commuter I feel I can criticise my own!

Undertaking - moving cars not so cool, stationary cars sometimes necessary but you have to use your common sense and anticipate the worst case. For example normal freeflowing road where the flow of traffic is halted by a right turning car blocking the road, then I would undertake unless there was a gap that a driver "might" try to squeeze through to the left of the right turning car. Static traffic in a built up area and I think the chances of someone getting out of a passenger door are too high for me, unless I'm crawling along.
[b]
And the converse to Crazy legs valid point [/b]- As a driving cyclist the thing that most annoys me that cyclist do is under/overtake slowed traffic when they can clearly see the traffic is about to get going again. When I'm riding my bike I'm very conscious that cars are often queued up behind me to get past as the road is not wide enough to overtake me considerately (i.e. giving me enough space) due to traffic coming in the other direction. I always give a little wave of appreciation when they do get past for their patience. If they get temporarily slowed down by a right turner etc a bit further down the road so I catch them up, I consider it bad manners to undertake them again and hold up the same drivers again by riding in front of them. Me just easing up a little so I don't get ahead and everyone gets along just fine. On singletrack roads I make sure I roll through passing places or widened sections of road so that cars can get past me, but I know a lot of cyclists will not. It's the little things that help to make the road a cohesive place.

quite, as above. just take it easy guys. for all the anger and 'this shouldnt be happening' etc. etc. its our lives at the end of the day.

getting to work early isnt worth being killed over...

From the description, it sounds like where the cyclist went wrong is by not taking a more central position in the road, thereby stopping you from over taking unless it was clear to do so when such a hazard is approaching.

It is perfectly legal to filter up the inside on a bike but the law says you do it at your own risk (as you do with most things on a bike really). As everyone has said, it's dangerous and I personally always prefer going on the outside if I can. This has it's dangers also however and you have to use your judgement which side is safer, or if to hang back.

gravitysucks - Member

Crap Troll 1 / 10.

Far from a troll. Read the post below yours.

yep read it. Isn't it just speculative to assume that may have been the case in this situation? Drivers are crap sometimes but you clearly held fault with the OP without commentating on the cyclists actions;
I can only assume this is because you would do the same... good luck with that...

[i]Isn't it just speculative to assume that may have been the case in this situation?[/i]

WTF??

"(that's how the situation reads to me anyway)"

Good luck with reading the whole of a post.

(15 years safe commuting, thanks)

As convert says ^^, a little bit of give and take on both sides is all that's needed - I tend to practice what he says.

It's simply not worth getting into an argument, the cyclist will almost always lose. A bit of tolerance goes a long way.

Just to clarify, I along with about four or 5 cars glide past guy on bike, the filter on right often never gets backed up, also forgot to mention parking spaces on left of road. Good 30 secs before he reappears which is just as I need to move over to the left to get thro a plenty big enough gap for my transit van and the biker, however I saw him with a quick check of the mirror and thought it wise to let him through. It would have only taken one of the parked cars to open drivers door and ... Squash!!!
Many a valid point on here but would suggest even from the experienced commuters it's an 80% in favour for the driver in this case!!

There's a lot of generalisation going on here. I've ridden in London daily for many years now and there are places where I undertake, places where I overtake - it depends on the road. Cycle lanes are marked on the inside, bus lanes are on the inside, the marked entry to most ASLs is on the inside.

The closest calls I've had recently have been from traffic coming in the opposite direction when I've been overtaking stationary traffic. I'm over the white line and the traffic is bumper to bumper so no way of getting back in. Vehicle coming the other way, with a wide lane and loads of space, drives straight at me at speed. I'm big enough to take care of myself but one incident like that would be enough to push most
cyclists back to the inside.

General rule - don't undertake at a junction. Don't go anywhere near skip lorries or scaffolding lorries (where the standard equipment appears to be 3 in the cab with the driver on his phone).

The answer the OP's thread title: of course they're allowed - how else will the coffin get to the cemetary?

At least, that's how I just read it when I saw it in the forum list 🙂

[i] there are places where I undertake, places where I overtake - it depends on the road[/i]

Have mentioned this numerous times in these sorts of threads, but still there are those who know better.. 😉

Perfectly legal to undertake but it does put you at risk.

I as others do undertake and overtake depending on the road situation.

I always go to the front of traffic queues and use my judgement to get there in the safest way.

Anyone who never undertakes does not use all the advantages of a bike and is using dogma rather than thought.

Never been black and white inside or outside for me, depends on a number of things.

Make the call and pay attention, ride accordingly.

Never on the inside of anything bigger than a car.

That seems a sensible call haze!

If the traffic is totally stationary I'll undertake, unless I can get to the outside and am able to pull back in reasonably quickly, then I'll overtake. Both are dangerous, drivers do not expect people overtaking in traffic and rarely see motorbikes let alone bikes, so you just have to be careful. It's all legal though.

I always go to the front of traffic queues

Really? I generally don't bother unless it's well backed up, just take my place in the queue and ensure that I'll get a safe look at whatever has stopped the flow. That said, I do commute at 7am and 6pm mostly, so the traffic's not too bad. Having seen london cycling, I don't envy their lot, it looks faakin mental 😯

An amazing thread - i ride from hackney to the west end every day and nearly every rider (and thats a lot of riders) undertakes all the time, hardly anyone ever hangs back rather than pushing to the front, and everyone generally uses every trick / tactic to get ahead at minimum effort. Most cyclists ride without shame or any regard to their own safety or offer any courtesy to drivers or even other riders. I don't object to this behaviour it just seems to be at odds to the somewhat sensible consensus set out in this thread.

IMHO from general observation 90+% of London cyclists haven't thought much about how best to ride in a manner which is safe for them, sensible and courteous to other road users.

You know what it might be: loads of people who live and work in London don't own a car (no need you see). So it could be that through lack of driving experience or lack of driving experience with cyclists around, then when they're on bikes they simply don't fully understand the rules of the road/how it feels as a driver to have cyclists coming at you from all directions.

I've commuted in London for 15 years and like Simon both go up the inside and/ or the outside dependent upon the road and traffic conditions. One thing I have noticed as that having gone from maybe seeing one cyclist on the way into work or on the way home I now see loads. Many do some interesting maneouvres that I wouldn't attempt and the mad scramble at central London traffic lights suggests that many avidly watch those annoying alleycat YouTube movies.
Like everyone I make mistakes and do the odd interesting manoeuvre but I always try to make sure that I know where I want to get to, how I aim to get there and have at least one alternative in case the unexpected occurs. Towing a bobyak does usually seem to get me given extra room though.

++1 London cycling. It's ****en mental out there. Still the best way to get around tho. Whad'ya gonna do?