Oh yeah… I forgot everything has to be viewed through the prism of IRAQ!!!!
*grabs petticoats in horror and outrage*
The default ‘argument’ used by anyone fond of the old tinfoil helmet, that leads to some of the most mind-bogglingly stupid conspiracy nonsense ever spouted. Ie: it wasn’t the Russians behind the Salisbury poisonings
Of course it bloody was! Same with this.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a ****ing duck, then it’s….
🙄
More rancid sarcasm from binners.
Yes yes, Russia is a bad superpower that does bad things purely in their own interest. We accept that.
Its just a shame the useful idiots like yourself see our own lot with rose tinted spectacles.
Anyone pointing anything other out must be shouted down.
You might as well reference the Suez crisis as Iraq
It’s about as relevant
But we know that our usual gang of faux revolutionaries have to come on to every thread like this and make out that they have some superior insight, usually from something they read on Twitter and that the overwhelming evidence that we all see before our eyes is wrong because… IRAQ!!!
Same old tedious sixth form level nonsense as always
occams razor. its bloody obvious who is behind it, just like the pipeline.
Ln time more evidence will appear. bit like the photos of the Russian ship specialising in submarine rescue that happened to be circling the area of the pipeline explosions with its tracker switched off.....just before they blew.
Russia will continue to deny. idiots I'll continue to give them the benefit of doubt
Ln time more evidence will appear. bit like the photos of the Russian ship specialising in submarine rescue that happened to be circling the area of the pipeline explosions with its tracker switched off…..just before they blew.
I'm under the impression there's increasing indications the explosion was as a result of Ukrainian action
I’m under the impression there’s increasing indications the explosion was as a result of Ukrainian action
Source(s)?
I’m under the impression there’s increasing indications the explosion was as a result of Ukrainian action
Unlikely, unless the Ukrainians were looking to hem the Russian military into one area. But I dont know the lay of the land there, or how Russia would move their forces if Ukraine launched a major offensive in that area against them.
Either side in the scenario of an action might use it to prevent a flanking move.
The ARRSE forum has good insights on who/why/when/what if. They're the ones with the experience to read this situation.
I personally think it probably fell down by itself. Many infrastructures previously held by the Russians were always in a state of disrepair. Great at monuments, not so good at maintenance.
I’m under the impression there’s increasing indications the explosion was as a result of Ukrainian action
Source(s)?
sorry, might have created some confusion there- I was replying to DT78's comment where he attributed the Nordstrom pipeline explosion to the Russians
re the pipeline there has been one report I've seen stating that Biden was warned the Ukrainians were planning on blowing up the pipeline. apparently convenienty leaked by that dumb kid.
unless there is something else you are referring to?
I call bollox on that. I put much more faith in the photographic evidence and reports about the Russian ship in the area at the time. think it was Denmark who published it.
of course I could be completely being taken in by our propaganda but the Russians are the most logical and obvious whodunit on both the dam and the pipeline.
I would also say a strong possibility they knocked out the cable to Shetland as well a while back
they have form
dyna-ti
Full MemberI personally think it probably fell down by itself. Many infrastructures previously held by the Russians were always in a state of disrepair. Great at monuments, not so good at maintenance.
If not for the reports of an explosion, I'd probably buy that too- there's satellite footage showing that part of the road across it either collapsed or was removed a few days earlier. Not sure why anyone'd remove it, so that supports the collapse theory. But none of it fits with the explosion reports, or the assorted russians apparently saying they did it, so that's a pretty strong argument against.
I call bollox on that.
TBF your opinion is irrelevant and worthless as you simply don't know. None of us do. All you're doing is reinforcing your own beliefs and biases with speculation.
they have form
All countries have form. The russians aren't the only country in the world which run illegal military operations.
Came across this in Ukraine Times earlier:
Engineering and munitions experts point to a deliberate explosion as the most logical reason behind the Kakhovka dam explosion, the New York Times reported on June 7.
A mass humanitarian and ecological disaster unfolded after the Kakhovka dam collapsed around 2:50 a.m. on June 6. According to the Ukrainian authorities, the dam was blown up by Russian forces to prevent a Ukrainian counter-offensive.
According to experts cited by the New York Times, hard evidence of a deliberate explosion was "very limited" given that the dam was located in an active warzone, but "an internal explosion was the likeliest explanation for the destruction of the dam, a massive structure of steel-reinforced concrete that was completed in 1956."
The breach would have required "hundreds of pounds of explosives" to cause the kind of destruction that occurred and "an external detonation by bomb or missile would exert only a fraction of its force against the dam," the experts added.
The dam had previously sustained damage during fighting between Ukrainian and Russian forces since the start of the full-scale invasion last year, but the plant was "built to withstand an atomic bomb," Ihor Syrota, the head of Ukraine's state-owned energy company Ukrhydroenergo, said.
Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba criticized international media on June 6 that entertained Russian narratives that Ukraine might somehow be responsible for the Kakhovka dam's destruction, saying that it "puts facts and propaganda on equal footing."
Over 1,300 people have been rescued or preemptively evacuated from flood zones in the past 24 hours, according to the Interior Ministry, and relief efforts are ongoing.
Meanwhile, the President's Office reported that at least 150 tons of oil had spilled into the Dnipro River following the destruction of the dam, with the risk of 300 additional tons leaking.
The Agriculture Ministry also predicted on June 7 that the disruption caused to the biodiversity in the region by flooding would have unprecedenced economic and environmental consequences for years to come.
I find it really quite remarkable that there are people here who are prepared to give Russia the benefit of the doubt after everything they’ve done over the last ten-fifteen years or so. It is now a nationalist theocratic autocracy, led by a man who sees himself as the reincarnation of Peter the Great, and is rewriting history to back up his claim that Ukraine was never anything more than a small backward state that was always part of Greater Russia. Which is provably false. Putin has passed laws that give himself the right to murder anyone he feels speaks out against him and his government, with complete deniability. We’ve seen it happen at least twice in our country, and yet Putin’s useful idiots are all too happy to accuse Ukraine of carrying out acts against themselves, that do nothing but hamper everything they’ve been building up to for weeks, just because Russia’s fascist regime says so.
@dazh honestly if I could mute you I would some of your recent contributions come acorss like deliberate trolling. every post on this thread is an opinion, not a single person knows 100% fact. to state opinions are worthless by adding your own is contradictory.
I suggest you don't contribute on threads if you don't like opinions!
of course the dam could have been blown by Ukrainians / NATO / aliens / whatever. however most to be gained by it, at this time was russia. and as I said they have form. not from several generations ago but right now.
I find it really quite remarkable that there are people here who are prepared to give Russia the benefit of the doubt after everything they’ve done over the last ten-fifteen years or so.
And I don't understand this weird logic which claims that because Russia has been the brutal aggressor in this conflict everything Kyiv claims must therefore be truthful.
It is like claiming that the Allies only ever told the truth during World War 2 because the other side were fascists guilty of murdering millions.
Ukraine is fighting a full-scale war ffs, there is a very good reason why they say that the first causality in a war is 'the truth'.
@dazh honestly if I could mute you I would
If dazh's opinions upset you that much you could try to avoid reading his posts 💡
I suggest you don’t contribute on threads if you don’t like opinions!
Oh so much ironing.
I fail to see the irony. I'm happy with people airing their opinions on what they think may have happened, even if i think its bloody obvious. I'm not ok with being told my opinion is worthless, hence calling out the troll.
and yes I will be ignoring posts which in my worthless opinion are trying to troll
so that probably means I shouldn't even be responding to this one. hey ho.
And I don’t understand this weird logic which claims that because Russia has been the brutal aggressor in this conflict everything Kyiv claims must therefore be truthful.
Does anyone claim that? Everyone I know acknowledges there is propaganda from the Ukrainian side as well.
However in this case there is no obvious upside for the Ukrainians and lots of downsides vs the Russians who have some upside as well as downsides.
Its also rather unclear how the Ukrainians could have destroyed it whereas for the Russians since they had possession of it there are clear options.
Does anyone claim that?
No one claims that. Dazh is just making up positions for everyone else for a good old ding dong.
Does anyone claim that?
Absolutely, on this very page. Apparently Kyiv's claims should be accepted because Russia's fascist regime is so awful.
On the flip side there is going to be risk to their water supplies and impact on troops in the area but thats outweighed by the short term gains.
The Russians don't seem to be that concerned about the welfare of their troops TBH, or most of their citizens.
Drowning a few thousand and putting hundreds of thousands into water poverty wouldn't even put a blip on their radar.
I’m not ok with being told my opinion is worthless, hence calling out the troll.
Airing opinions about who is to blame for something without any real evidence is just pure speculation designed to reinforce whatever biases you have. I'm not excusing Russia for their invasion, in fact you'll see I said that I think Russia destroying the dam is the most likely scenario. But something of this magnitude needs a sober and serious approach. I note the US and UK govts haven't rushed to a conclusion as many on here have. Perhaps ask yourself why that is?
The other wider point I'm trying to get across is that this tribal goodies vs baddies level of discussion about the war is not only purile but self-defeating. The only priority is how to bring an end to the war as soon as possible,
and to do that the two sides are going to have to talk to each other, and govts and people on both sides are going to have to swallow some hard compromises. The alternative to that is more destruction and death and the unthinkable prospect of nuclear escalation.
Anyway, if you don't want a proper discussion and just want to shout 'Boo! Russians are evil!' then go ahead, but don't complain if others don't want to join in with your flag waving.
The only priority is how to bring an end to the war as soon as possible,
and to do that some the two sides are going to have to talk to each other, and govts and people on both sides are going to have to swallow some hard compromises.
There's another way. Ukraine just lets Russia take whatever land they want with their strength of numbers and willingness to do and destroy anything in the process. The war in Ukraine could be over already, with a Free Ukraine unsupported by other countries reduced to a runt or non existent country. Here's the thing Dazh, there is a "baddie", the invading force that has been pushed back. That push back would not and could not have happened without help from neighbouring countries, and countries farther afield. We could have all just left Ukraine to it... the idea that would result in nothing but "talk" is incredibly naive. Ukraine would have been gone, or all but gone, and Russia's expansion plans would be looking to the next country.
‘Boo! Russians are evil!’
I've met many amazing Russians. Not at all evil. It's the invasion that is wrong and is being resisted. Including by Russians... despite them risking their own lives in doing so.
Nice to see the protagonists are up early.
Russia’s expansion plans would be looking to the next country.
Are there any left ?,isn't the rest NATO members. Unless you think Turkey is next
Just a thought, probably a stupid one but hey:
Is it possible that a Ukrainian missile or whatever hit the dam, couldn't damage it but did set off the Russian explosives inside? Which would explain the claims of both sides and the confusion surrounding it all.
I know, I'm imagining a big pile of barrels of gunpowder inside the centre of the dam, I'm sure it's much more complex and that modern explosives may not even be able to be set off like this, but does anyone know if this is even a possibility?
That push back would not and could not have happened without help from neighbouring countries, and countries farther afield.
I don't think anyone, including myself, has ever suggested Ukraine shouldn't be helped and supported.
We could have all just left Ukraine to it…
Except that's sort of what is happening isn't it? We might be giving them weapons but we could have also helped them with boots on the ground and air support. I presume you want the west to do that in order to try to push through a total victory? And if not, then why not? We need to defeat the baddie don't we? Why don't we get on with it? I think we all know the answer to that question.
One thing is cleary certain is the dam would still be in place if on the 24th Feb 2022 Russia had not invaded a soverign state. Nothing more needs to be said really on the matter, one aggressor one blame
Airing opinions about who is to blame for something without any real evidence is just pure speculation designed to reinforce whatever biases you have.
To use legal jargon (because what's an STW discussion without being pedantic about definitions), it sounds like you're looking for 'beyond reasonable doubt' whereas the rest of us are happy with 'on the balance of probabilities'.
Sure, we don't know anything for sure and therefore knowing beyond reasonable doubt is never going to happen. However, if we consider motive and opportunity, on the balance of probabilities Russia did it.
If you feel that on the balance of probabilities Ukraine did it then it would be interesting to hear your reasoning for thinking that. In fact, if you think it's 50/50 it would be interesting to hear your reasoning for that.
If we refuse to assume anything that can't be proved beyond reasonable doubt in an active war zone then we're going to have to give pretty much everything Russia do the benefit of the doubt.
Just a thought, probably a stupid one but hey:
Is it possible that a Ukrainian missile or whatever hit the dam, couldn’t damage it but did set off the Russian explosives inside?
Anything is possible. Though I can't think why the Ukrainian military would attack a dam knowing full well what would happen were the dam to collapse.
It’s a country, not a region.
Oh great, pedantry. Just what this thread needs!
kelvin
Full Memberthe Ukraine
It’s a country, not a region.
Amended.
Just for you 🙂
Nice one. We've all got that one wrong over the years. I have, many many times in the past.
I only mentioned it because some now use it deliberately to belittle Ukraine and add credence to Putin's story that Russia is just on operations in a region that is rightfully part of their country, rather than invading an independent country with a right to exist in its own right.
the beeb has an interesting article - including some pictures over a few days showing damage.
BBC.CO.UK That makes it look like the road was taken out a few days before, which could have triggered a later failure.
That would make a lot more sense - Russians just meant to make the crossing unviable but messed up
Doesn't explain the numerous reports of large scale explosion heard, There would have been satellites watching so missle/artillery will be easy to rule in or out
I think there could be several reasons why the US and UK are keeping quiet. If they come out and condemn it, they need to have a common approach to a response as there will highly likely be calls for action over it. I note a story this morning mentioning polish boots on the ground being discussed. This could be a worrying escalation.
I worry an 'accident' is becoming more likely at the nuclear plant
and I agree with 'on balance of probability' comment
If they come out and condemn it, they need to have a common approach to a response as there will highly likely be calls for action over it.
Exactly. That doesn't seem to align though with the calls from many on here to support Ukraine towards a total victory.
I note a story this morning mentioning polish boots on the ground being discussed. This could be a worrying escalation.
Is that not what is needed though? We can't have it both ways. We either give Ukraine the support they need to get rid of the Russians from their territory, or we come to a compromise. If the former option is 'worrying' then perhaps we should get on with the serious business of diplomacy.
Nothing more needs to be said really on the matter, one aggressor one blame
Well that is obviously not true. Just because a country has been attacked it doesn't mean that it cannot be blamed for anything that occurs after that event.
Besides, how can you be sure the damage to the dam was directly caused by the war, isn't one of theories that the water level were allowed to become dangerously high? Weren't there also issues concerning Ukraine deliberately affecting water supplies to Crimea before 24th Feb 2022?
I have to confess that the issue of who or what caused the Nova Kakhovka Dam collapse doesn't preoccupy me sufficiently that I feel I should be bothered to form an opinion on the matter, but I find it weird that some people seem to argue that whatever the Ukrainian government claims must be the truth because Ukraine is the victim.
Btw I recently attended a fund raising advent by Ukrainian community in the UK specifically because I support Ukraine's struggle against clear and indisputable aggression. I am definitely not neutral on the subject.
I worry an ‘accident’ is becoming more likely at the nuclear plant
According to the last report I read....hold on, see if I can find it....
" The Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Plant, Europe’s largest, shut down its six reactors months ago but still relies on water from the Dnipro River for cooling. The water reservoir was falling by two inches per hour on Tuesday, meaning that the supply of cooling water should last at least a few days. The U.N.’s International Atomic Energy Agency wrote in a statement that “there is no immediate risk to the safety of the plant.” "
I note a story this morning mentioning polish boots on the ground being discussed. This could be a worrying escalation.
Yes, apparently Poland is the head of NATO now, so any attack should be led by them and not the US, the UK or a coalition.
You first Poland...we have your back.. Honestly.
Yet, here you are
That's because I can read a thread without necessarily having a strong opinion on the subject matter.
Absolutely no one has said this.
Yes they have. Try reading the thread.
The accident I worry about is not necessarily based on the cooling, but more to do with sabotage
This is unconfirmed, but it seems pretty true to form for Russia.
The accident I worry about is not necessarily based on the cooling, but more to do with sabotage
I think that would affect Russian positions more than any, and its only a couple of hundred KM from where the Black sea fleet lives.
This dam was one of a series of 7 along the river, are any of the others in the hands of the bad guys?
