Ask yourselves why this war is so much more important than all the other wars that are happening/have happened?
1. Geographic proximity, hasn't been this type of war fought this close to us in most, if not all, of our lifetimes.
2. Proximity to NATO/EU countries.
3. The outcome isn't known. Most recent wars have been over before they've even begun due to massively mis-matched odds.
4. What's next? If Putin wins does he roll right on to Moldova? Poland?
Like it or not (and we should look at what it says about our lack of interest in people who don't look like us) this is the most significant European conflict since WWII and poses the greatest threat to the human race since the Cuban missile crisis.
But yes, I will be making an effort to limit my focus on this over the weekend. I'm sure it'll still be here on Monday.
Ask yourselves why this war is so much more important than all the other wars that are happening/have happened? The answer is, being honest, well it’s a bit closer and the people look a bit more like us.
No. Its 'so much more important than all the other wars that are happening/have happened' because it has the very real potential to rapidly escalate into a full scale nuclear confrontation between superpowers, and thus the end of the world for pretty much everyone, regardless of location or skin colour
I'm sure it'll all be NATO's fault though, as everything obviously is 🙄
Proving my point perfectly there ^^^^
I dont understand why anyone would think that they would do this
Yeah, but you also didn't understand why anyone would think he would invade. To be fair, I didn't think he would invade but I was only mildly surprised when it happened.
If I wake up and find out Putin has used chemical weapons I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.
Ask yourselves why this war is so much more important than all the other wars that are happening/have happened? The answer is, being honest, well it’s a bit closer and the people look a bit more like us.
No. It's because Europe fought a horrifying war back in the 1940s. About 25% of the population of Eastern Europe died in that war. Following that, there were 70 years of very tense stability, with no major wars. This is a deliberate attempt by Putin to upend that stability. It's not just another minor war, tt's the most consequential event in at least 30 years, maybe 70.
Putin didn’t want to blow the reactor up, he wanted to switch the lights off. It was the press that wanted to ‘blow it up’.
I'm not sure anyone knows what Putin wants. I'm also not certain Putin would be aware they were shelling the nuclear plant until the same time as we were - but they could have been following his direct orders. However regardless of the purpose and regardless of whether they were targeting the reactor itself the international community foresaw this risk in 1977 when they added additional protocols to the Geneva Conventions. Russia is a signatory to those protocols.
because it has the very real potential to rapidly escalate into a full scale nuclear confrontation between superpowers, and thus the end of the world for pretty much everyone, regardless of location or skin colour
Unlike the constant skirmishes between India and ****stan (both nuclear powers) in Kashmir, for instance?
I think this has more to do with it than anyone will care to admit.
The BBC interviewed a former deputy prosecutor general of Ukraine, who told the network: “It’s very emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blond hair … being killed every day.” Rather than question or challenge the comment, the BBC host flatly replied, “I understand and respect the emotion.” On France’s BFM TV, journalist Phillipe Corbé stated this about Ukraine: “We’re not talking here about Syrians fleeing the bombing of the Syrian regime backed by Putin. We’re talking about Europeans leaving in cars that look like ours to save their lives.”
but what would happen if Russia deployed nuclear or nerve agents on the Ukrainian battlefield?
I dont understand why anyone would think that they would do this.
Putin is on record as saying that a world without Russia isn't worth having. He appears to feel it's all or literally nothing. As he appears mentally unstable in his recent appearances and the lies he's told to justify the invasion, I'm not sure I'd rule it out.
Unlike the constant skirmishes between India and ****stan (both nuclear powers) in Kashmir, for instance?
Yes, this is exactly like Kashmir. Almost identical. Indistinguishable at every level
What, you're saying India-Kashmir doesn't have the potential to result in nuclear war? Really?
Proving my point perfectly there ^^^^
Planning on elaborating or are you happy enough just sneering.
I'm not even sure why you are trying to downplay it as I'm struggling to believe you don't see the importance of these events.
If your point was that it would be better for our mental health to not follow events so closely then you're probably right. Following every update or tweet and posting endlessly on here isn't making any difference to the situation but people are worried and if 'spaffing' over the hardware or discussing geopolitics helps people work through it then I don't see what the problem is?
I think this has more to do with it than anyone will care to admit.
Ah, got it. You're just desperate to prove your superiority to the rest of us.
But yes, it would be nice if the Western world took a long hard look at it's own actions in the last 20 years and reflected on the war crimes it has committed.
Putin is on record as saying that a world without Russia isn’t worth having. He appears to feel it’s all or literally nothing. As he appears mentally unstable in his recent appearances and the lies he’s told to justify the invasion, I’m not sure I’d rule it out.
A more optimistic view is that if he feels a world without his beloved Russia isn't worth having, he's not going to do anything which makes the destruction of both more likely.
What, you’re saying India-Kashmir doesn’t have the potential to result in nuclear war? Really?
I don't know. Which one of them is going to fire one or all of the 6,000 nuclear warheads they each possess at us?
Ah, got it. You’re just desperate to prove your superiority to the rest of us.
I have the same biases everyone else does but I am at least aware of them.
Which one of them is going to fire one or all of the 6,000 nuclear warheads each they possess at us?
Ah I see so the issue isn't fear of nuclear war and horrific widespread destruction it's fear of you getting caught up in it. You are the most important thing in all of this of course.
"I think this has more to do with it than anyone will care to admit."
Very much this grum. I posted similar yesterday. Funny how no one saw the ironing in people being racially segregated into different queue"s at the borders of Ukraine and the EU.
For a lot of the world this is white peoples' s***.
Funny how no one saw the ironing in people being racially segregated into different queue”s at the borders of Ukraine and the EU.
Yup, and it just seems to have been accepted as 'one of those things'.
Ask yourselves why this war is so much more important than all the other wars that are happening/have happened? The answer is, being honest, well it’s a bit closer and the people look a bit more like us.
This.
If India and ****stan have a go at each other I'm sure that would terrible but I would survive. If NATO and Russia do I would be very unlikely to.
Selfish as it might sound the second one matters more to me personally.
.
The people look more like us. We do not value life equally, at all, nowhere near. If push comes to shove your family take priority over your friends, your friends over your neighbours, your neighbours over a random bloke from the next town and so on, it's just how we are.
Ah I see so the issue isn’t fear of nuclear war and horrific widespread destruction it’s fear of you getting caught up in it. You are the most important thing in all of this of course.
Oh, I do apologise for my instinct for self-preservation. How frightfully insensitive and selfish of me
I have the same biases everyone else does but I am at least aware of them.
You and you alone, eh. Must be a nice feeling.
Yup, and it just seems to have been accepted as ‘one of those things’.
I don't think it has. I saw it and it was really disappointed and saddened (I know, I sound like a Tory politician) but tbh, I really didn't know how to react.
If it had happened in Glasgow or London I would have known that the obvious answer would be to demand boycotts of whatever service allowed these actions to take place but I'm really not sure who to boycott here.
Since you are so aware, compared to the rest of us, can you tell us how we should have reacted and what we should do now?
I think most people have that impulse andrewh and up to a point perhaps it's reasonable but I don't think we should just accept it 100% as inevitable.
You and you alone, eh. Must be a nice feeling.
In this thread pretty much aye, in the wider world, no.
There's a very good Blindboy podcast on this very subject, well worth a listen
https://play.acast.com/s/blindboy/a-mental-health-plan-for-when-the-news-is-overwhelming
I think this has more to do with it than anyone will care to admit.
It does - not necessarily overt racism (although it might be) but it's just because Ukraine is closer, and this makes a subconscious difference. It shouldn't, but it does.
I haven't banged on about it on this thread because our previous atrocities don't make Putin any better, and it's detracting from the issue at hand right now.
Anyway. Linked from one of those tweets up there is an interesting point about the abandoned air defence missile truck thing that apparently was not only undamaged and in full working order but still switched on and logged in. They are saying that it could give Ukrainian forces the ability to effectively hack and disrupt the entire Russian AD network and even allow the Ukrainians to cause Russian planes to be mis-identified as enemies and be targeted by their own systems. Absolutely huge if true. And, one wonders if it were done deliberately by disillusioned soldiers.
How do we think this is playing out in Africa and the Middle East? For the most part they're pulling up the deckchairs to watch us Europeans do on our own front lawn what we have done by proxy on their doorstep for decades.
Funny how no one saw the ironing in people being racially segregated into different queue”s at the borders of Ukraine and the EU.
Certainly saw how disgusting it was. But in the context of a debate about the war as a whole, I prioritised my anger and frustration.
Funny how no one saw the ironing in people being racially segregated into different queue”s at the borders of Ukraine and the EU.
The current Polish government overseeing racist policies, especially as regards their border controls? There's a surprise. But still, those fleeing Ukraine and facing problems at the Polish border would be welcome into the UK with open arms, at speed, with limited paper work... yeah? Right.
Certainly saw how disgusting it was. But in the context if a debate about the war as a whole, I prioritised my anger and frustration.
I think most people saw it but I think most people, like me, struggled to figure out how it fits into current situation. This kind of racism obviously such a huge issue for the world and humanity in general but somehow in this case it feels less significant. Which obviously makes you feel guilty and it just becomes easier to talk about the difference between a hitile and a missile.
Despite his insistence, I don't think grum is actually the only one who has found themself questioning their own reactions and their own prejudices throughout the last week.
Funny how no one saw the ironing in people being racially segregated into different queue”s at the borders of Ukraine and the EU.
Yup, and it just seems to have been accepted as ‘one of those things’.
1. Reported on BBC R4 as an awful thing, (including Hungary's difft approach). Who's saying it's not? Everyone??
2. "Ironing" stopped being funny after about the second time it was used, something everyone knows.
3. There's a planet threatening difference in magnitude between a nato/Russia conflict Vs India/****stan.
4. I'm not going to catch up with the thread, so can someone tell me what point inkster and/or grum are trying to make?
How do we think those images at the border can be played out in then Russian media?
If you"re not sure, then let me tell you, the same way they are playing out in Africa and the ME. Our battle for hearts and minds only seems to extend to Europeans?
Rationalising the issue away in deference to immediate priorities is a huge mistake, Ukraine should have been called out for it Instantly and Zelinsky should have broadcast a public apology. If not because it would be the right thing to do morally, do it because it is the right thing to do strategically.
It's not a good way to garner global support, sentimentally or politically. The Western media 'campaign' has been getting it wrong the last few days. We mistake global concern for what is in essence a Eurocentric problem. A bit like the yanks with their baseball 'World Series".
Not sure what exactly the Ukraine government got wrong here, they weren't the ones stopping refugees crossing their borders (just as we are) were they?
Rationalising the issue away in deference to immediate priorities is a huge mistake, Ukraine should have been called out for it Instantly and Zelinsky should have broadcast a public apology. If not because it would be the right thing to do morally, do it because it is the right thing to do strategically.
I agree. We probably should have discussed it more at the time on this thread. Zelinsky should have said something (assuming he was/is aware of it, I'd imagine he's quite busy).
However, from the way it's being used as a stick to beat other people on this thread, I'm worried it's being used to prove moral and intellectual superiority to other posters rather than raised out of general concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.
If you want to discuss it I'm for it but is there really that much to discuss? It was shocking and horrifying and shouldn't have happened. Zelinsky should have been made aware of it and he should have said something.
I don't think many people are going to argue against that. Like I said earlier, if it happened in London or Glasgow I'd know what to do. Here, I have no clue.
Do you have any suggestions?
"But still, those fleeing Ukraine and facing problems at the Polish border would be welcome into the UK with open arms, at speed, with limited paper work… yeah? Right."
That's a big leap. I flagged up some incidents of racial segregation on the Continent, that's all.
I thought the imagery a little more profound than it was being given credit for and maybe a bit more consequential for a global {or non white] audience than was being considered on here.
However, from the way it’s being used as a stick to beat other people on this thread, I’m worried it’s being used to prove moral and intellectual superiority to other posters rather than raised out of general concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.
agree.
if anyone's interested, here's an account (twitter thread) by a Black person of the difficulties they faced at the Ukrainian border.... and here's how they were treated at the UK border.
"Not sure what exactly the Ukraine government got wrong here, they weren’t the ones stopping refugees crossing their borders (just as we are) were they?
Yes they were.
stumpy - using the term 'big hitters' gives the wrong impression; argumentative, opinionated and voluble with an overly large opinion of self-worth would be more appropriate.
Don't forget the aphorism - empty vessels make most noise.
"1. Reported on BBC R4 as an awful thing, (including Hungary’s difft approach). Who’s saying it’s not? Everyone??"
No one on here, not for 24 hours after it happened at least.
"I’m worried it’s being used to prove moral and intellectual superiority to other posters rather than raised out of general concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border."
That's either exactly what I am doing or I actually have a concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.
Russia is global ask the Japanese how they felt about Russian helicopters invading the Japanese air space.
Russia (Putin) is not a European issue it's global Alaska to Poland is some ground to cover.
Cluster bombs almost certainly have been used what's next chorine gas?
Large scale white phosphorus (not flash).
The treatment of refugees from Africa that we saw on the news has I believe been questioned by the UN and rightly so.
We are now looking at 10000 Russian troops losing there life for a war only a 3 or 4 people in power want and that is Putin and his weak handed cronies.
Ukraine don't want this the Russian army don't want the fight the EU block have nothing to gain here.
Just think if we where in Russia now calling it a war could be punished by prison.
What, you’re saying India-Kashmir doesn’t have the potential to result in nuclear war? Really?
No, I don't think it does. The Indians and ****stanis have been lobbing rounds at each other for decades now without getting anywhere near reaching for the launch codes
I sense no-one really knows what the true ultimate desired outcome for this actually is. Regardless, for a notable and significant number of humans it is completely wrong and unnecessary.
However - and no idea if it would make much difference TBH - some softening of language (particularly from some of our own politicians seeking a sound-bite whilst frequently reading from a piece of paper) using "We suggest that we all work to seek a peaceful solution" rather than "We'll destroy x, y , z of Russia" may be beneficial. Additionally, everyone impacted negatively should be treated with the same respect - fully agree that if there are racially segregated lines at borders then the various nations - inc. UN - need to address but preferably this is not required.
Interesting to see if VP will accept the invite for a 1-to-1. Ceasefire, neutral location, China as mediators.
I dont understand why anyone would think that they would do this.
Putin didn't seem to have any problem deploying them in Salisbury (with it's 123m spire) I think Zelensky has suggested there' already been 3 attempts at his life, I can't imagine for a minute Putin wouldn't deploy nerve agents if he thought it would be in his best interests to do so.
However, from the way it’s being used as a stick to beat other people on this thread, I’m worried it’s being used to prove moral and intellectual superiority to other posters rather than raised out of general concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.
Seems to be the case. Anything but discuss the invasion of one state by an aggressor state.
He has used chemical attacks on a few individuals now and that's just the ones we know about. In Russia his foes just jump out of windows with holes in the back of their heads.
"stumpy – using the term ‘big hitters’ gives the wrong impression"
Am I being included in the big hitters now?
Well it's Taken me 10 years to get here, so I'd like to thank:
The good people,
The bad people,
The stupid people,
The trolls,
The people who post 'this thread used to be interesting until...'.[their bubble got burst]
binners, for teaching me that a Monty Python clip wins every argument.
Those who come here like lambs seeking enlightenment,
The Corbynistas for their entertainment value alone and last of all...
The Mods.
I couldn't have done it all without you.
Do I get the STW version of a Blue Peter badge or something?
...would be nice sometimes, wouldn't it?
Derailing the thread apparently = doing anything other than taking part in incessant obsessive hysterical war-porn.
Calling for a tiny amount of restraint/perspective is not to be tolerated.
OK guys, as you were.
