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Last time I looked they hadn’t actually invaded yet.
They invaded Crimea and the eastern border areas of Ukraine several years ago. They have been building up very large forces around the border of Ukraine, seemingly in preparation to continue the ongoing invasion on a larger scale.
Or is it you think the US is some peace loving country that never causes any problems anywhere ever.
The U.S. isn't preparing a large-scale invasion of Ukraine, Russia is. If the U.S. was doing that, I'd be strongly opposed, just as I was opposed to the invasion of Iraq.
Nobody also seems to want to acknowledge the parallels between this and what happened in Cuba. We nearly had WW3 over that and the simple premise is the US didnt want the soviets sitting with military and armaments really close to them. Russia feels this is the same.
The U.S. does not have any weapons in Ukraine, let alone nuclear tipped ballistic missiles. This is not about Russia being concerned about U.S. missiles, it's Russia refusing to acknowledge Ukraine's right to make sovereign decisions about whether it wants closer ties to the EU.
I do wonder how these countries, Romania, Poland*, Lithuania etc feel about some joint war going on in their countries. I’ll bet they’ve all seen before and after pics associated with such proxy actions.
Those countries were very keen to join NATO because they were afraid of Russia. Ukraine also wants to join NATO for the same reason. Russia's actions justify their concerns.
The NATO smoke screen is being overplayed. What do you think Putin will say when the EU block has a joined army. "We must have an invasion of Ukraine as we don't want an EU army in Poland it's a direct threat to the motherland"
He has gone mad and no one in his club wants the free cash train to end so they won't get rid
“Advanced forward presence” To shore up those battalion sized battle groups they they have in the
former Soviet countriesindependent sovereign states which are members of NATO.
FIFY
I do wonder how these countries, Romania, Poland*, Lithuania etc feel about some joint war going on in their countries. I’ll bet they’ve all seen before and after pics associated with such proxy actions.
As you well know the "war" is already ongoing, Russia is constantly preparing the ground to destabilise, setting up infiltration, positioning assets, testing cyber warfare capability. They joined NATO to ensure that the Russian activities can't escalate because article 5 would be triggered
I wonder why the Finnish are now talking about NATO membership?
that story is about Finland stopping foreigners, especially Russians, but all foreigners, from buying homes/land near their bases. I'm not subscribed to the independent but from the headline it doesnt appear to say Finland are interested in joining NATO.
At least not according to the Finnish foreign secretary Pekka Haavisto as of last month i see. Of course this stance could have changed, but it doesnt sit with their usual policy on being a part of NATO.
They are in bi-lateral agreements with NATO, but they(and Sweden) like to have their own terms and not feel like they're under pressure form anyone.
Besides, the Fins have nowt to fear from Russia. They've proven that before.
Besides, the Fins have nowt to fear from Russia. They’ve proven that before.
More utter nonsense.
Yawn.
Besides, the Fins have nowt to fear from Russia. They’ve proven that before.
Pretty sure the Finnish president disagrees with your fairly baseless assertion.
Yes yes whatever.
Zzzzzz
Besides, the Fins have nowt to fear from Russia. They’ve proven that before.
Because they beat a very poorly equipped and lead Soviet Army in '39-40? Don't you think things might be a wee bit different?
If you quote the rest of what she said
""All in all, I believe the NATO discussion will increase in the coming years," Marin said."
So they are on a journey, I imagine a Russian invasion of Ukraine might accelerate it.
What a tedious person you are.
on the 1 January 2022, Finland's president, Sauli Niinistö, reasserted Finnish sovereignty by stating that the Finnish government reserved the right to apply for NATO membership. Furthermore, Niinistö said that Russian demands threaten the "European security order". Additionally, he believes that transatlantic cooperation is needed for the maintenance of sovereignty and security of some EU member states, including Finland.
or does your opinion supersede that of the elected Finnish leader?
@B&D if infact the Russians invade the Ukraine. And when they dont....
Because they're looking for concessions. And to invade means zero chance of any and can only lead to considerably more and greater problems. So why would they invade. Too many negatives for them.
Better to rattle the sabre, as other countries do from time to time.
Because they beat a very poorly equipped and lead Soviet Army in ’39-40? Don’t you think things might be a wee bit different?
No, because I googled what the Finnish people think of Russia and if the populous as a whole was afraid of Russian aggression. They are wary of them, but from the answers from Finnish people of today on reddit and quora they are stating they arent afraid.
Soviet union in the 40's was at the height of its power under a total nutter who instilled fear in his troops. The boss wouldnt have been to chuffed had his people lost to such a small country that is Finland..but as you say suffered disproportional losses. Finland didnt win incidentally. They remained sovereign, but ceded land.
So you appear to be wrong, and are even unaware of the history of their conflict. But stand and shout at me. No offence mate, but ..well enough said there eh 😕
Honestly 🙄
Pretty sure the Finnish president disagrees with your fairly baseless assertion.
I should answer this ,not fair to be as dismissive of someone elses opinion eh 😕
Do the Finnish really want such a weak president who is quaking in his boots at the thought of what Russia might do ?
But if you think my assertion based upon what the Finnish people think, please respond with the evidence that the Finnish president is afraid of the Russians.
So are the Finnish afraid of Russia ?. Wary yes, afraid no.
dyna-ti
Free Member
Tell you what. Go argue amongst yourselves, I’ll not be checking back into this thread.
But then you came back to post more drivel like this:
Yes yes whatever.
Zzzzzz
Whatever thols. you cant accept my opinion so resorted to posting derogatory messages towards me.So why should i pay you the slightest bit of respect.
Reasserted Finnish sovereignty by stating that the Finnish government reserved the right to apply for NATO membership.
{PLEASE FFS SHOW WHERE THAT SAYS THEY ARE INTENT ON JOINING NATO. PLEASE FFS, GO ON.
See until they ACTUALLY do it. They've not ACTUALLY done it. Christ in a handcart. 🙄
I have the right to vote, doesnt mean i will. I have the right to pop over to the shops later, doesnt mean i will. Just because I have the right to, doesnt mean I actually will
But forget all that. Forget my opinion and answer why the Finnish foreign secretary stated that Finland has no desire now or in the future to join nato, and if you cant the sod off and keep your nonsensical opinion to yourself.
Oh look Pictonroad you tedious so and so, my article directly from theFinnish prime minister is dated 20 Jan, and yours the 1st of Jan.
I was quoting the prime minister
no one in his club wants the free cash train to end
And it is a shame that our leaders are so reliant on that that they will be unwilling to act decisively to seize Russian financial interests in the UK, the threat of which is one of the greatest disincentives for the current regime to invade.
At least we'll finally find out how good the Russian cyber/electronic infrastructure offensive capabilities are, and how woefully defended we are.
So was I.
So we agree that they could join nato but are unlikely to.
Someone please relate that to pictonroad. Who has a problem understanding the difference between might and might not.
you cant accept my opinion
Your opinion is just Russian propaganda. Nobody accepts it. That's why you stomped off and said you weren't coming back. But then you came back. So, why come back when nothing has changed?
Exactly, nothing has changed. Russia still hasnt invaded and you still cant accept that they are unlikely to.
Forgive me for not blindly following. 🙄
I get your point. Russia - Bad. US/UK alliance - Good.
Next you'll be full on against China. then who knows, Africa maybe ? 😕 Or perhaps more horror to be inflicted on south America, now that bastion of good nato have a foothold in Colombia.
And yes, The Chinese regime is a nasty lot. Just want to get that straight, dont want you twisting any more facts to suit the rhetoric you favour.
Anyway, back to the Rugby. Wales are in front by one point, 6-5
why are you trying to shift the discussion to argue a point I'm not making?
You said, they have nothing to fear. History and their political stance and statements prove otherwise.
Now you're trying to make an argument that it's entirely about whether Finland join Nato.
You know you're right about that, they've stated they're not likely to join in the near future.
However, that's not the point we disagree on, in fact, the article you've quoted makes the same point.
Irrespective of Nato membership, Russian interference in the independent decisions of a neighbouring nation is a threat to their security.
Sorry Pictonroad, you've become tedious.
Russia still hasnt invaded and you still cant accept that they are unlikely to.
Russia have invaded. Have they finished? That’s the big question for people in Ukraine. And, if not, where and when will they finish? That is the question that those in other Eastern European countries are asking themselves.
😂
Your opinion is just Russian propaganda.
It's the only plausible explanation tbh.
Particularly the insertions of "you think this"
Sorry Pictonroad, you’ve become tedious.
So do you see yourself as the pot or the kettle on the tedious issue?
Yes yes.
And 6 months from now the Russians will have redistributed their troops back home, Ukraine will be told privately theres no nato membership coming, the EU will give them a gigantic cheque as compensation, allow them to keep all those new munitions for free, and the Ukrainian government will steal most of the cash.
What kind of person puts the rugby score on a different thread..
SPOILER ALERTS
The Russian shills in US politics are in full swing.
https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1492306240680038401
Sadly, we have our own here. Including politicians I used to have a lot of time for. The idea seems to be that if we don’t help Eastern European countries to defend themselves, and refuse to stand with them, then Russia won’t be “provoked” into expanding westward. These people seem to want to ignore who is in charge of Russia and its Military. Putin doesn’t need provoking. He just needs to be given the opportunities to grab, and he will if he thinks he can get away with doing so he will.
So it looks like they'll invade on the 21st, then? Seems weirdly specific to me. Do you pop it in the diary next to the shopping list? The whole thing is really surreal
Nothing surreal about a specific date being targeted as 'the day' to invade.
The general populace of 3rd party countries being informed of that date however....
When I heard the Biden, and to a lesser extent Johnson (my spell checker tried to call him nonsense🤣) had ruled out boots on the ground I got the feeling that they had just given up and abandoned Ukraine to it's fate.
Yes, the stakes would be higher if there were US/British/German/French troops there but I get the feeling that might stop it.
By saying we won't do that it's pretty much giving Putin the go ahead, he knows he can't be stopped (whether it will succeed is another matter, I predict another drawn out bloody mess as they fail to subdue it) He will already have factored any sanctions into his thinking, and if China aren't joining in with them they just won't be as effective as needed.
.
Where did you get 21st from Shermer? Ot is very odd to announce a date beforehand
I might be wrong but isn't that date the end of the Olympics?
Putin might not mind slaughtering people but doesn't want to overshadow his best mates little shindig.
I thought it finished the day before
Some of the Russian athletes might be taking part in the invasion being all 'roided up and such, so might need a bit of travel time to the front.
I feel somewhat for Ukraine having been screwed over by Russia, Britain and the United States to de-nuclearize their weapons.
If they still had them, I doubt Russia would be at the border today.
I guess this is why the US, UK and EU are now frantically panicking and they are party to putting Ukraine in a very exposed position.
Looks like the Russians have given Ireland a wake up call as well - whilst planning on playing war games off their coast - the only protection Ireland had was their fishing fleet.
Just shows we have to invest in our defence.
dyls
Free MemberI feel somewhat for Ukraine having been screwed over by Russia, Britain and the United States to de-nuclearize their weapons.
If they still had them, I doubt Russia would be at the border today.
After the first invasion, Ukraine's leaders were pretty adamant that they were happy to have disarmed and wouldn't change a thing.
The thing is, as a non-lunatic country, nuclear weapons are of incredibly little value in these situations. Would ukraine have used nukes against Russia when they annexed the crimea? No. So would it have deterred Russia? Likewise.
Does anyone actually think Russia are going to invade? Seems to me this all being orchestrated to make two weak leaders look stronger in the eyes of their citizens. The US got themselves messily involved in Ukrainian politics and need to extract themselves, and putin is under pressure to support those in the donbas who see themselves as Russian. Seems to me both sides will get what they want.
I don’t think they will invade.
I have a feeling they will just pull out their troops and basically say we told you all along we are not going to invade ( which to be fair they have)
Whether or not the USA or our own illustrious leader will say / do something stupid to wind them up as they are walking away is another matter.
I don’t think they will invade.
Oh ffs dont say that. Thols has it marked in on his planner. 😛 😉
He'll be disappointed otherwise..
Does anyone actually think Russia are going to invade?
Who knows. It really comes down to whether Putin thinks it suits his aims better both short term and long term which has a mix between physical objectives of controlling x vs psychological objectives of "was he going to invade before Truss made him backdown"? The latter of which might make him flip from using a threat to achieve an aim to deciding even achieving that aim is a bad idea longterm.
I think it started as an threat which wasnt meant to become real but as the sage said everyone has a plan until they are punched in the mouth.
The thing is, as a non-lunatic country, nuclear weapons are of incredibly little value in these situations. Would ukraine have used nukes against Russia when they annexed the crimea? No. So would it have deterred Russia? Likewise.
Nuclear weapons work by having just that little bit of uncertainty. Would they have used them? Probably not, but as long as there was enough doubt there to make Russia think twice they will have served their purpose. India and ****stan seem to have stopped having so many wars since they both got them for example.
Flattening Moscow would have been madness, using one to take out the entire Black Sea fleet, maybe not. I don't think they had small enough ones to be viable as a battlefield weapon against massed troops but they might have done by now if they had developed/bought replacements.
They are definitely working for North Korea, we can be pretty sure they would use them if push came to shove, and that's why Iraq was invaded but not NK. That is also why Iran might want some.
andrewh
Free MemberThey are definitely working for North Korea, we can be pretty sure they would use them if push came to shove, and that’s why Iraq was invaded but not NK. That is also why Iran might want some.
Like I say, non-insane. NK, Iraq, Iran, that's a credible risk. India, ****stan, maybe, those guys can be pretty crazy when it comes to their borders (and it's going to get much worse if even a fraction of the predictions of climate change come true). But ukraine? Nope. They know what it's like to get radiated.
(though, even with NK it's not clear that they're working- NK has a massive conventional weapon threat as well)
Flattening Moscow would have been madness, using one to take out the entire Black Sea fleet, maybe not.
But in such a scenario the will not,must not rules concerning the use of nuclear weapons would have been breached and the problem we have then is the Russians might feel a return strike very much in order.
I dont think 'we're going to launch a nuclear attack on you, but you mustn't launch one back' mentality is going to work.
These situations could get very much out of hand and none of us want that.
As such even talking about this stuff should be off the cards 😯
I don’t think they will invade.
I have a feeling they will just pull out their troops and basically say we told you all along we are not going to invade ( which to be fair they have)
Difficult to see Putin backing down after all the fuss he's made about Ukraine. He made demands from NATO, the EU, and US that he knew they would not accept. If he just withdraws his military buildup, it will be perceived as him backing down after NATO called his bluff. Being seen as backing down in the eyes of the Russian public would be a massive blow to him. He cannot afford to back down.