I don’t think Putin wants WW3
I don't think he does, at the moment. But if it turns out that he (or Russia, which in his mind is the same) is going down, he's capable of trying to take the world with him. He said an number of times that there's no point in having a world if Russia isn't in it.
Not too far wrong. Always leading all the other kids astray.
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Channel 4 News showing pictures of young Russian kids being arrested and put in jail for demonstrating against the Special Military Operations aka War! WTAF??
and Starmsky threatens to withdraw the whip from MPs and Lords who signed up to Stop the War (including Lord John Hendy QC who has 10x the brains of that rightwing dimwit).
depriving them of coverage of major sporting event would be a logical next step.
No, I think they should be able to see the events they are no longer able to participate in. They might ask why.
Slightly off-tack… I know there are lots of sports banning Russian participation now but are those sports still broadcasting into Russia?
depriving them of coverage of major sporting event would be a logical next step.
The Premier League severed its contract with Russian broadcasters today. I imagine everyone else will be doing the same.
Starmsky threatens to withdraw the whip from MPs and Lords who signed up to Stop the War
I think Paul Mason has found the turn of phrase I was looking for…
Since NATO correctly cannot fight, everything depends on sanctions and geopolitical unity ... every dumb Twitter deluge of Kremlin talking points gives VVP ghouls hope that some part of the West will crack....
The West won’t crack, and opposition politicians need to be part of that solidarity in response.
Slightly off-tack… I know there are lots of sports banning Russian participation now but are those sports still broadcasting into Russia?
depriving them of coverage of major sporting event would be a logical next step.
I disagree, they should still be broadcast into Russia.
Events with no Russian competitors, stadiums of people wearing Ukrainian colours, tennis players writing anti-war messages on cameras, etc, etc.
Just little things on their own but this is a battle for public opinion in Russia, any alternative to the state narrative has to be a good thing.
I expect most of it is blocked though, not sure how much foreign media is getting through.
.
Talking of foreign media, I was trying to listen to Al Jazeera English on the radio earlier but it wasn't working. Just my computer? Just looking for a few alternative points of view as I get most of my news from the BBC and The Times, always nice to have a few others
ABC News Radio is mostly concerned with their massive floods, that has, probably understandably, gone totally under the radar here.
Its gone unmentioned so far but did anyone see on the news last night, the treatment dished out to Nigerian and Morrocon students trying to cross the Polish border? Being made to stand in a separate queue and let in at a rate of one african for every 10 white people? If allowed to cross at all?
The Ukranian and Polish governments need to be called out on this.
The dumbest thing is that they were all MEDICAL STUDENTS...
FFS.
Tv staff walk out and broadcast swan lake on the tv.
It's what they played when Chernobyl went up.
Putin won't have a people to govern soon.
Meant to be humour, but not too far from the truth....
https://twitter.com/SimonBrodkin/status/1499055376653766663
Tv staff walk out and broadcast swan lake on the tv.
That is the tv company featured in the documentary the BBC broadcast last night.
Also https://www.dec.org.uk/
/blockquote>Seconded.
Paypal option on DEC was stalling for me - must be a good sign! 👍
Yep didn't work for me about an hour ago either. Card worked fine
NATO doesn’t send invites or press gang countries. Independent, sovereign states apply to join of their own free will. They do it because they are terrified of their belligerent, dysfunctional neighbour which believes they should come under its control due to some post Soviet sense of grievance. Membership is not a given, there is a long process and no guarantees.
The invasion of Ukraine is directly driving once ambivalent countries towards NATO out of fear. Even Finland is starting to think what was once unthinkable. Putin is directly causing NATO expansion and it’s hard to see why, unless he is genuinely seeking WW3
Absolutely this! ^^^
This should be quoted to anyone who just writes the words ‘NATO expansionism’, because it’s clearly and blatantly untrue.
One more time, NATO does not invite membership, sovereign countries have to ask to join, then start a process to gain membership.
It is true, I believe, that a country can be approached to see if they might be interested in joining, Russia was at one point, but I could easily be mistaken, I’m just sure I read it somewhere.
It is true, I believe, that a country can be approached to see if they might be interested in joining, Russia was at one point, but I could easily be mistaken,
No, that's true.
[Edit] 1954 just after Stalin died
https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/russia-tried-to-join-nato/
Also, if the world as we know it is about to end and we are all going to die horribly why has no one rushed out and bought all the bog roll? Have we all still got plenty left from last time?
My only comment on this will probably go unnoticed but I am really heartened by the news of so many people and companies and organisations around the world just saying “no”. Stopping trade, cancelling deals, stopping electronics transactions, stopping Russian sports from competing. Even Russia is part of the 21sr century but it’s been cut off from it completely. Yes more might be able to to be done but it’s awesome to see what’s been done so far.
I have just seen Russia are going to appeal against their football ban - do they actually think anyone will play against them anyway?
The best one I have seen is that someone has hacked into Russian electric car charging points so they display “Putin is a d******d” on them all.
There's plenty of 'news' on YouTube with what appears to be interesting content.
Anyone know to see any info on who is uploading particular videos? I can't find any poster's bios or anything, would be helpful in judging how accurate it is likely to be.
As an aside, I think it's extremely naieve to think that informal (secret?) discussions don't take place between highly placed diplomats and/or military top brass, to sound out whether a country would be interested in "applying" to join NATO.
Just to add a little levity to the proceedings, a report from News Thump;
@markgraylish - that’s almost a certainty, all ‘off the record’, etc, as you say, naïve to think otherwise.
I have a lot of sympathy for any Russians keeping their heads down. Can’t do much good if you’re dead or in jail. Poor buggers.
They also put dissidents' kids into care, aka orphanage. One might risk jail or death, but who'd risk that?
he is acting as a Tsar ruling over an empire would.
People say this but surely he knows what happened to the last actual Tsar...
I can see why people are wondering what his state of health is. Someone who'd been given a terminal diagnosis might well no longer give a single **** and just start doing random stuff to see what happened.
Just had a quick shufti at ADS-B, and at the moment there’s a French, a British and a Belgian transport, two A400 Atlas and a C-17 Globemaster, all heading back west from somewhere in Poland…
…oh, and a German A400 as well.
why has no one rushed out and bought all the bog roll?
Who Gives A Crap - a big box arrived again today
This should be quoted to anyone who just writes the words ‘NATO expansionism’, because it’s clearly and blatantly untrue.
https://twitter.com/rnaudbertrand/status/1498491107902062592?s=21
The guy who ran the falafel shop under independence square was an Israeli who'd come to Ukraine because he thought it was safer... Now even the Yemenis are hightailing it out because it is all.too.familiar https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/3/yemen-students-ukraine-russia-war
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/why-are-we-in-ukraine/
Just for a bit of balance before any jingoism leads to dyspepsia.
slowoldman
Full Member
Despite post-Georgia negotiations, it is NATO that is seeking to expand.Or to put a slightly different spin on it, there are neighbours of Russia who are quite keen to join NATO.
A further spin is that Ukraine and Georgia despite overtures, where never going to join be allowed to join NATO and Ukraine in particular had forewarning..
NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.
That is the Bucharest Summit Declaration in April 2008, 4 months later Russia invaded Georgia.
I'm in no way justifying Russia here, their actions are abhorrent, but ideas that Russia or Georgia would ever have been permitted to join NATO are folly, and it was bad policy for either of their countries to seek it.
Not saying that democratically it wasn't their right to seek it, it was absolutely, but ultimately given the current destruction of Ukraine, the reality and hindsight says it wasn't a great idea.
Now being speculative and conspiratorial here, but it's not unknown Russia's attitude to Ukraine join in particular was hostile. So given that I don't think it's a stretch to think that Ukraine could perhaps be a bit of a sacrificial lamb in a wider game here.
If you ask, out with the destruction of Ukraine, and Ukraine staying within the Russian sphere, what is the outcome of this conflict?
To me it looks like a new cold war, and European Military spending is going to vastly increase, and we more than likely will have a new arms race, and Europe in general is all in in NATO now.
Now having a look a wider geopolitics of the next 20/30, China will challenge the US and it will most likely surpass them, The US won't be able to challenge them alone, US and Europe will. Which is a complete sea change, cause America and Europe did seem to be drifting apart a bit tbh
/End Conspiracy
The idea that Russia want a buffer against NATO is all a bit nonsense when you think about it.
The only demilitarised zone that seems to work is Korea and that's 4km wide and a tad tense.
The green line in Beirut was hardly stable.
Moving Russia's border to the line on the map that is the polish border is obvious expansionism.
Apparently some of the conscripts may have been put in the army by way of punishment after being convicted of 'non specific crimes' (opposing the government). Also people who are seen as 'weak, not manly enough etc can find themselves sent to the army to toughenn up.
Combined with the fact that many that have been sent in have only had 4 months training that basically consisted of getting the hell beaten out of them by 'the grandads' it's not difficult to see why Putin wouldn't care about them. To say that their morale is low doesn't even come close,
Interesting piece on CNN regarding the effects of sanctions... It's effectively lead to unofficial sanctions on Russian oil exports as western companies won't touch it for fear of falling foul of current sanctions or ones soon to be imposed.
One Russian company attempting to sell a tanker load well below market... With no takers.
This will hurt Putin. Also the West of course.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/investing/russia-oil-sanctions-ukraine/index.html
Dazh, lots of truths in that … but it’s all a bit “well, if she hadn’t sought help when he was threatening her with violence, he wouldn’t have beaten her”. We know Putin considers Ukraine a “non-country”, and we know he doesn’t want other states to treat Ukraine as a sovereign state, but as if it was part of his world, which he should control. This war is not a response to NATO, it is a move by Putin to create a legacy and demonstrate his strength at home.
Hmmm, Squirrel of Doom complicates that thread a bit.
All NATOs fault obvs.
Nobody is saying it is all nato's fault. Though we should maybe separate nato and the US when it comes to foreign policy.
What we should at least be able to agree on is it was naive to think that going right up to Russia's borders was anything but a good idea. After all it has led us to our current situation.
So blame should lie with all.
Just a blanket denial isnt going to help anything.
dyna-ti
So blame should lie with all.
Blame lies directly with Russia, and no one else for the invasion of Ukraine. But that doesn't means there's not other things going on.
naive to think that going right up to Russia’s borders was anything but a good idea
It’s either that or wait for the RF to come up to the borders of more existing NATO countries. Which recent NATO signatories would you have turned down? All the Baltic states? How many NATO countries border Russia? Go on… and would you kick them all out of NATO? Putin is showing his strength and expanding by force… NATO hasn’t accelerated that by welcoming Eastern European states, arguably it is one of the key things that has slowed it down.
And, your regular reminder… Ukraine is not in NATO.
Woulda', Coulda', shoulda'.
There were many twists and turns after the USSR collapsed, I'm not sure it's possible to look at one particular decision as pivotal.
The threat faced now is existential to those counterfactual arguments.
"you"
Not me mate.
But tell you what. This is the situation we are in, so just keep going in this direction and we'll see what happens eh ?.
Ukraine is not in NATO.
And your regular reminder - Did Ukraine not express interest in joining NATO ?.
dyna-ti
So blame should lie with all
“There are very fine people on both sides”
NATO has expanded, that’s clear. Plenty of maps available to show the growth eastwards.
We’ve also been involved in many illegal wars in the last 30 years, removing governments we’ve not been happy with. Our governments,
former politicians and senior military leaders are profiteering nicely from these previous wars.
It still doesn’t make Putin and the Russian invasion in anyway justified.
Don’t know if anybody else has been listening to BBC World Service but… BBC World Service has had ex Putin advisor and speech writer on this evening, absolutely condemning of him, but he says the truth about Putin is he isn’t the calculating genius that we think he is, nor is he a raging Imperialist. No the truth is he just wants to be popular!
And sadly for the world, Putins ratings go up when Russia fights a battle (ones they’ve carefully picked so that they can come away with small victories), and in times of peace his ratings go down and within 2yrs or so the public starts protesting against him and figures like Navalny start gaining more and more support.
But this time he had accidentally bitten off seriously more than he could chew. His “intelligence” on Ukraine is woeful basically because he has surrounded himself in an echo chamber, nobody will disagree with him and he has romanticised about being welcomed as a liberator believing that Ukrainians actually believe his hype anyway and would be easily swayed. Apparently Zelensky now calling for 1 on 1 talks, nobody else involved, is a very smart move because they know Putin has now retreated into his Nuclear Bunker in the Ural Mountains where he won’t now come out until the war is over… His threat of escalation of nuclear power is because he’d already played all his cards and was shown to have nothing in poker terms, now all he has left is bluffing!
This could be interesting… An international case of “how to give Putin the right amount of rope, not too little, not too much, to first of all allow him to climb down off his pedestal to safety, before then kicking the stool away once he thinks he’s safe so he hangs himself”…
"NATO hasn’t accelerated that by welcoming Eastern European states, arguably it is one of the key things that has slowed it down."
Absolutely, If we're getting all counterfactual about it then what are the odds that one or more of the Baltic States would have been Belarusified already had they not signed up to NATO?
For anyone pinning their hopes Russian protesters, there could be legislation passed tomorrow that would conscript those arrested for protesting.
The very definition of cannon fodder.
