tim - I'm talking about just having a Russian-backed government - like they had before, not actually being occupied.
Arising from dazh:
Their view is that they wanted (past tense now as it’s irrelevant) to get on with their lives and live in peace whoever governs them, and if that meant living under the influence of Russia, as they did for decades previously, then that would be better than what they’re experiencing now.
If it were possible before this latest fighting started, to have a referendum on Zelensky/EU & war with Russia, vs. having a pro-Russian government and peace, I'm not sure which way it'd go.
bloke - yes, impossible to say from behind this desk on this long-peaceful island. All those things matter to me, but they might not matter enough on balance. Faced with an upcoming event or outcome, people like to think they can do something (in this case, fight) to change it, or choose something else (that might not be realistic), but it's very possible that the thing will happen anyway and by doing something you end up with worse.
As if we need any more evidence of Republicans and Right-wing propaganda.
Plenty of Republicans take a very different view.
Anyway, our equivalent…
I like to think I would fight, but that’s very easy to say from the comfort of my sofa.
I wouldn’t want to fight. I’d hope for a surrender. And then I’d keep quiet and try to get my family out asap. Life wouldn’t just “continue as normal” under a brutal military occupation, it would be hell. I wouldn’t judge those around me that resisted in an armed fashion, and I would be in awe of those standing up to invading military hardware armed with nothing but words. I definitely wouldn’t blame either of those groups for the bombardments and deaths, or imagine my life could continue in the country if only everyone around me just made way for the occupation and kept quiet and acquiesced in the way I would. That’s a naive fantasy.
If it were possible before this latest fighting started, to have a referendum on Zelensky/EU & war with Russia, vs. having a pro-Russian government and peace, I’m not sure which way it’d go.
Me neither, and of course it's hypothetical. But what a horribly perverse referendum question that would be! Be bombed to oblivion if you exercise your right to choose who governs you, or become an unwilling vassal of a corrupt imperial dictatorship.
If they’d surrendered to start with, maybe people could have held their noses and got on with their lives in peace.
Perhaps. But even if they had surrendered and 'regime changed' before a single bullet was fired, the likelihood is that their peaceful lives would have been steadily diminished. Look at Belarus to see what 25 years of puppet state existence gives you: no free press, no freedom of speech, no elections, dissent against the government brings prison or torture, sanctions hobble your economy, and your children might be conscripted for Putin's next adventure. And look at Chechnya to see what happens if you really step out of line.
Surrender might have brought temporary relief - but it would have been the thin end of a fairly uncomfortable wedge. Of course that's not to say that some people would have taken it anyway.
If there were so many volunteers why did Zelensky ban 18-60 yo from leaving the country? I'd sooner live under a kleptocratic dictatorship than be pushing up the daisies, had a fair bit of practice.
kelvin - I like to think that I'd fight if the other option was military occupation, but most likely not if the other option was "living under the influence of Russia, as they did for decades previously". For example (and a very different one, I know), Brexiters probably wouldn't fight if the EU said rejoin or we invade.
dazh
And neither will Zelensky get the win he wants. His resistance on the surface looks very admirable but where does it end? Is the slaughter of thousands, the destruction of cities and the displacement of millions really worth defending a border or a government? Call me a cynic but I struggle to see how Ukrainian resistance benefits people like my mate’s family who just want to get on with their lives.
In short you stance is that any country suffering an invasion should not resist and simply comply? Are there ever times when you believe that is not the best policy?
If there were so many volunteers why did Zelensky ban 18-60 yo from leaving the country?
Exactly. How do those going on about 'living as free Ukrainians' square that with blanket conscription? Call me a coward but I wouldn't fight, I'd stay with my family and get out if I could or hole up somewhere until it was over. I certainly wouldn't be putting my life on the line to protect politicians and businessmen who stood to lose out from a Russian takeover. Ultimately it's very easy for people in the west from the comfort of their sofas to bang on about freedom and fighting against fascism when they've never had to worry about it. This is real life not some hollywood movie.
Think how different history might have been if all invaded territories had simply given up without a fight. No Rourke's Drift. No Alamo. No Custer's last stand. Those pesky Zulus, Mexicans and Native Americans could have saved themselves a whole lot of aggro if they had simply held up their hands when the invaders came and carried on living peacefully under a new administration I guess. Maybe the invaders would have treated them better in the long run too, had they not put up such resistance. Worked for the Australian Aborigines. Oh, sorry. No it didn't.
Call me a coward but I wouldn’t fight,
You don't necessarily have to fight, just stay and do your job that needs doing - food, power, water, driving around, even shopkeepers are needed.
Have been thinking from the start that China's position in relation to the situation could be key to how it plays out. Here's a link to an academic paper which is well worth reading from the 'U.S.- China Perception Monitor, titled "Possible Outcomes of the Russo-Ukrainian War and China's Choice."
It has been doing the rounds on Twitter but not seen it mentioned here, it is interesting to see a perception form that angle...the most encouraging thing is that there is a recognition that China needs to get off the fence and side with those looking to de-escalate, and in so doing could improve both world perception of China and their standing.
I'm sure I read earlier that Biden is meeting in person for talks tomorrow with China, can't find the source now - if they go with the recommendations in the article then that would be a positive outcome.
I like to think I would fight, but that’s very easy to say from the comfort of my sofa.
If I was single and had no dependents, I'd like to think I'd have the courage of my convictions on standing up to bullies. The reality is I'd have to see the damage that choice would make to my aging parents, my disabled wife, my now "old enough to have to fight" son and my teenage daughter. I suspect my convictions may crumble.
any country suffering an invasion should not resist and simply comply?
And that's the nub of the question, isn't it? And that's why mutual defence pacts exist as the geo-political level so that individual countries can't just be picked off one by one.
Call me a coward but I wouldn’t fight, I’d stay with my family and get out if I could or hole up somewhere until it was over. I certainly wouldn’t be putting my life on the line to protect politicians and businessmen who stood to lose out from a Russian takeover
I certainly wouldn't call you a coward, it's a pragmatic choice.
But it's not just the politicians and businessmen who lose out. Fair enough not fighting for them. But what about when your country has been asset stripped and there's nothing left to make a viable life for your family, but there's armed guards at the border stopping you escaping? What about when a squad of drunken troops kick the doors in of the house across the road, steal everything they've got, beat up or kill the males, rape the women? Do you take a stand then? What about when they kick in your own door?
Societies, at all levels, survive because at some point some brave/idealistic/foolish people are prepared to put themselves on the line to protect their family, their neighbours, their culture, the places where they live.
With all these concerns, surely 'Stop the War' is tha answer, rather than have I got the balls to be blown up in a competition between two ruling classes? All this bravado nonsense would be better expressed on the Christmas Airfix thread.
BillMC
Full Member
With all these concerns, surely ‘Stop the War’ is tha answer, rather than have I got the balls to be blown up in a competition between two ruling classes? All this bravado nonsense would be better expressed on the Christmas Airfix thread.
I don't think Putin is inclined to listen to protests laudable as they are.
Those blank sign protests. Just amazing
As if we need any more evidence of Republicans and Right-wing propaganda.
Tucker Carlson has the permanent look of a man that surreptitiously slipped out a fart only to realise he’s followed through in public.
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
It's deja vu all over again Rodney
Interesting article from endoverend - I can see that how China reacts will have huge implications for it's international standing going forwards, and backing Putin, or at least not trying to talk Putin down, could see it facing similar united international sanctions which would cripple China the way they are crippling Russia. The article certainly makes a good point that the right choice could secure and cement China's international position in the short-medium term.
Those blank sign protests. Just amazing
Very much in the vein of the very old Russian joke:
A man was reported to have said: "Nikolay is a moron!" and was arrested by a policeman. "No, sir, I meant not our respected Emperor, but another Nikolay!" - "Don't try to trick me: if you say "moron", you are obviously referring to our tsar!"
You have to admire the bravery of people protesting in Russia, even if they don’t now end up in the gulag.
there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism
There really isn’t. If Putin doesn’t want borders with NATO then pushing Finland to join by aggressively invading another neighbour (that itself has borders with NATO) is a funny way of going about it.
EU expansion is potentially another question insomuch as a successful democratic Ukraine on the border would make the people of an autocratic corrupt Russia start to ask questions.
Tucker Carlson, Trump, Tom Cotton, looks like these right wingers all backed the wrong despot.
i_scoff_cake
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
If the Olympics ever incorporate mental gymnastics I suspect you'll get a call.
Back on topic, those blank sign protesters in Russia. Incredible, brave and very clever at saying everything with nothing. Remarkable courage.
Ukrainian Railways (Укрзалізниця - Ukrzaliznytsia) posted this picture on their FB page showing the current state of their network and functioning stations:
[url= https://i.ibb.co/1LDJ2G1/xbgaknza26n81.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/1LDJ2G1/xbgaknza26n81.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
Ukraine is not a NATO member, and until this had no realistic prospect of membership any time soon. And, as has been said over and over again, it's a defensive pact that countries apply to join of their own free will. If NATO expansionism exists at all, it's entirety driven by Putin because neighbouring countries are terrified of his colonial aggression. As witnessed by countries like Sweden and Finland who until recently had no membership ambitions, looking like changing their minds.
The article certainly makes a good point that the right choice could secure and cement China’s international position in the short-medium term.
I can't be bothered looking now but I said as much about 50 pages ago 🙂
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
Those bloody NATO countries and their bloody invasions, eh? The people who’ve died as they aggressively annexed all those former soviet states
Oh… hang on a minute…
^ if you want to know why we have to revisit that particular turd in the punchbowl.....
NATO is (the warmongering, expansionists) run by America (world leaders in all things capitalism), for the benefit of Isreal, or more accurately Mossad, who "we all know are actively engaged in both international peadophile rings and the MSM who only exist to ensure the true identity of our lizard overlords is not revealed.
apols, i seem to have run out of inverted commas and parentheses
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
Hail Tommy, comrade cake…….or some other indoctrinated bullshit
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
No, really, there isn't.
Nope, none whatsoever,''Biden’s CIA director, William J. Burns, has been warning about the provocative effect of NATO expansion on Russia since 1995. That’s when Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that “hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.''
Which is why Putin has been writing essays on why Russia & Ukraine are really one nation. And saying in public that Ukraine isn’t really a nation. But really we are going round in circles here. People will believe what they want to believe, select the evidence that supports their existing viewpoint & are prepared to ignore the bleedin’ obvious if it doesn’t support their particular world view
Burns, then a political officer in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, reported to Washington that “hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.”
The only reason Russia is hostile to NATO "expansionism" is that it frustrates their colonial aspirations. Eastern European countries have a stark choice. Voluntary membership of NATO or involuntary membership of USSR/Warsaw pact Mk2.
it’s a defensive pact that countries apply to join of their own free will
Nato doesn't have to let them join. Furthermore, NATO has been used at least twice to bomb countries that didn't first attack NATO, so it's not completely defensive.
The only reason Russia is hostile to NATO “expansionism” is that it frustrates their colonial aspirations.
The Americans have their Monroe doctrine. Do you think we'd be happy with an independent Scotland signing a 'defence pact' with China and letting China build military bases in Scotland, may even put nukes there?
i_scoff_cake
Nato doesn’t have to let them join.
Russia doesn't have to invade Ukraine but it has.
Interestingly Ukraine isn't in nato....And around and around it goes...
The Americans have their Monroe doctrine. Do you think we’d be happy with an independent Scotland designing ‘defence pact’ with China and letting China build military bases in Scotland, may even put nukes there?
Now if you delete China and insert any other democratic country/countries (a more realistic analogy I think you'll agree), then personally I wouldn't feel threatened by it nor have any objection.
Do you think we’d be happy with an independent Scotland designing ‘defence pact’ with China
An interesting assumption about who ‘we’ are given that a lot of people on here are Scottish or live in Scotland?
But what you are saying is that if Scotland became independent, England would have every right to invade if the Scots came up with policies that the English weren’t keen on?
Interestingly Ukraine isn’t in nato….And around and around it goes
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join...at some point. It's this possibility that is the Russians' problem.
i_scoff_cake
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join…at some point. It’s this possibility that is the Russians’ problem.
So Russia invade a county and decimate it's cities over a "soft promise"? Ok.
How about Georgia and Chechnya?
Like I said though, this just goes round and round.
Do you think we’d be happy with an independent Scotland designing ‘defence pact’ with China
A good analogy. Of course it will be ridiculed by those who see geo-politics as a good vs evil battle, where the lives of normal people are secondary to the political and financial interests of the rich and powerful.
I guess the millions in Ukraine who have seen their lives destroyed will feel some comfort in the fact that Putin and his cronies are now persona non grata in the west when previously they were everyone’s best mates. 🙄
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join
This is nonsense
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join…at some point. It’s this possibility that is the Russians’ problem.
But why? Does anyone in Russia (or the world) seriously believe NATO would launch an invasion on their territory from Ukraine if they were in NATO? Or is it simply because it would have thwarted their desire to seize Ukraine by force. If it is the latter, then it's not a reasonable objection IMO.
Nato has made a kind of soft promise to let them join
But since Russia couldn't make a reasonable counter offer they need to invade.
Lots of countries bordering Russia have already joined NATO and not caused Russia any problem.
The whole "NATO expansion threat" theory simply doesn't stand up to any logical scrutiny.
It’s more that there are those in Russia who fear & despise liberal democracy. The more countries that embrace it & the closer they are, the more they are scared it will infect Mother Russia.
dazh
I guess the millions in Ukraine who have seen their lives destroyed will feel some comfort in the fact that Putin and his cronies are now persona non grata in the west when previously they were everyone’s best mates.
@dazh
Remind us again how it's Ukraine's governments fault that they are dying and not Putin's?
The whole “NATO expansion threat” theory simply doesn’t stand up to any logical scrutiny.
Agreed, it simply constrains Russian ambitions, borne out of a festering and misplaced sense of grievance to reclaim their old vassal states by force. That is the sum total of their objections to it.
Remind us again how it’s Ukraine’s governments fault that they are dying and not Putin’s?
That’s not what I said and the implication is offensive. You can either retract it or I can report it and let the mods decide.
On a point of order though there’s a huge difference between the Ukrainian govt and the people who are being slaughtered in their name.
Of course it will be ridiculed by those who see geo-politics as a good vs evil battle,
The baddies are the ones who invaded a country at the behest of a fascist dictator, and are killing civilians. The goodies are the ones trying to defend themselves. Hope this helps.
On NATO expansion, right now if you lived in a Baltic republic would you be agitating to leave NATO as not doing so is somehow worrying Putin?
Putin asking for help
https://twitter.com/FT/status/1503094784763781122?t=G6cC41pg0rpphQ_wZZFdFA&s=19
China are tacitly backing Russia so far, but they must be aware that he has ballsed this up massively
Russia are ready to default
Unprecedented sanctions
Hes united the the West, with countries like Germany and France talking about stepping up military spending
Biden looking more like a leader than ever
Fast track membership for both EU & NATO now being requested or considered by Russia's neighbours
Putins plan for a 3 day blitzkrieg to decapitate the Ukrainian leadership has instead seen his army in tatters, suffering more casualties in 2 weeks than Amrrica & the UK suffered in 20 years in Afghanistan...
dazh
That’s not what I said and the implication is offensive. You can either retract it or I can report it and let the mods decide.
Ok, as you are bringing up implications and what you said or didn't say what do these things you said imply:
dazh
They definitely don’t want to sacrifice their lives to defend the Ukrainian government.
dazh
How do those going on about ‘living as free Ukrainians’ square that with blanket conscription?
And incredibly, after saying how offended you are and I'm talking nonsense about you blaming the Ukrainian government you post this.
dazh
On a point of order though there’s a huge difference between the Ukrainian govt and the people who are being slaughtered in their name.
You directly imply in all those quotes and say on the last one that this current devastation of lives is due to the Ukrainian government. Not once mentioning the invading Russian army or the hand guiding it.
Utterly incredible alternate reality. I'm sorry the truth offends you.
Sure, but there is good reason to think this war is about Nato expansionism, not Russian expansionism.
I hope you are getting some of the grift that Farage and co get for this tripe. I'd hate to think you were doing it for free
It’s this possibility that is the Russians’ problem.
NATO isn't Russia's problem, it's Putin's problem, and it's certainly not the fault of the people of Ukraine that Putin sees himself the victim. He's chosen to invade Ukraine, assigning imaginary danger to group that pose him and Russia zero danger. His self -ascribed victim-hood is what allows him to empower his forces to commit war crimes. Assigning imaginary power to defenceless people outmatched in every way exposes his desperate need to feel wronged by the West.
Putin feels he is the victim of History, not the people he's now attacking. It's what allows him simultaneously to pretend to be a victim of NATO expansion while at the same time bombing the shit out defenceless people in a country that pose no risk to him or his mafia cronies.
People like Putin won't stop, they can only be stopped,.
The baddies are the ones who invaded a country at the behest of a fascist dictator, and are killing civilians. The goodies are the ones trying to defend themselves.
You think the terms ‘baddies’ and ‘goodies’ are helpful in this situation? You’re boiling an extremely complex situation down to schoolyard politics.
To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides who have used the Ukrainian people as pawns in their geo-political and financial interests. The goodies are those who are now dying and suffering through no fault of their own. War benefits no one other than those sending the orders and supplying the weapons.
dazh
You think the terms ‘baddies’ and ‘goodies’ are helpful in this situation? You’re boiling an extremely complex situation down to schoolyard politics.
Deflection. I think most of the world would characterise Putin and his actions as being the polar opposite of being the "good guys" and holding the moral high ground.
To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides
Again, totally ignoring the fact that Putin's military has invaded another country. Incredible stuff. Really.
You are an outlier on a monumental scale.
Complex situation but if you can't tell good from bad, you're in a different reality.
To be clear though, the baddies are the state actors on all sides who have used the Ukrainian people as pawns in their geo-political and financial interests. The goodies are those who are now dying and suffering through no fault of their own.
Well, you are certainly ideologically consistent. But you aren’t going to convince anyone who doesn’t believe in your ideology.
@dazh You seem to be wanting to paint the Ukrainian government as baddies without actually saying that. Or do I misunderstand you?
You directly imply in all those quotes that this current devastation of lives is due to the Ukrainian government.
No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics. Do you agree with blanket conscription? If Ukrainians are free should they not be able to decide whether to fight or not?
Just thinking aloud here...
I just can't get my head around someone with very left of centre leanings, which I share, ending up siding with a brutal authoritarian dictator like Putin.
I just can't get my head around it? I've tried but I can't square it.
Or do I misunderstand you?
Yes.
ending up siding with a brutal authoritarian dictator like Putin.
No you’ve just imagined this. I’ve never defended putin and never will. I despise him FWIW, but that doesn’t automatically mean I think those opposed to him are blameless either.
No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics. Do you agree with blanket conscription? If Ukrainians are free should they not be able to decide whether to fight or not?
I think its clear what you've been saying through this whole thread I'm afraid.
War is *, conscription is * but Ukraine has been forced into a situation of Putin's making and however much you want to blame Ukraine and its government it just doesn't stand up to what we are all witnessing on TV and online.
Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.
No I’m saying it’s the result of all governments who have involved themselves in Ukrainian politics
So does that excuse Russia invading Ukraine?
It seems to me that dazh is feeling a little uncomfortable with the lionising of Ukraine and the apparent tendency of people to create a simplistic goodies vs baddies Hollywood Cold War type story.
I can appreciate that viewpoint but it's rather hard to discuss it without being jumped on at this point because emotions are justifiably high (including mine) and that precludes nuance generally.
So perhaps now isn't the time? It might come across as insensitive and a bit 'yeah but...'
Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.
He really isn't doing that. You're extrapolating incorrectly.
Someone who calls for a revolution of the people, but not for a resistance of the people.
If this was the USA and/or the UK invading a sovereign country, Dazh would be with the rest of us calling out the politicians who had called the invasion, rather than this two sides stuff. Yes, there are many countries who have been involved with Ukraine, only one is at this moment attacking it and killing its people. Russia has no reason to be flattening the cities of Ukraine right now. It was no threat to them. No NATO country was going to attack Russia on the behalf of the Ukraine. Hell, no NATO country is prepared to defend Ukraine as it falls piece by piece to Russian military aggression.
Conscription in time of war is like Lockdown in a pandemic: a necessary evil if your society is going to survive.
Pretty amazing to see ukranians in occupied cities willing to protest
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1502966766087163908?t=6Xr-TvRSOYnA5PIsPXCKCQ&s=19
Conscription in time of war is like Lockdown in a pandemic
Sorry but that’s a ridiculous analogy. In lockdown all we had to do was stay at home. In war we’d have to kill other people and perhaps sacrifice ourselves. The two don’t compare.
poopscoop
Keep defending the indefensible though as you have all through this thread.molgrips
He really isn’t doing that. You’re extrapolating incorrectly.
molgrips, I do agree with what you said in that post and emotions are understandably taut but I can't agree with the quote above.
dazh has constantly been defecting any blame for the invasion away from Russia, time and time again. Its always been NATO, the US and a fairly new ingredient in his deflections away from the above... Its now Ukrain's government to blame for the horrors we are witnessing.
He's directly said so, I quoted him.
dazh
On a point of order though there’s a huge difference between the Ukrainian govt and the people who are being slaughtered in their name.
No extrapolating here, no emotional bias. That's what he said. It's indefensible.
This is the democratically elected government of Ukraine? Elected by a majority of the population on a pro-West, anti-Russian ticket?
I'm not seeing how this is the Ukranians fault other than in a parallel universe
We had conscription in this country until relatively recently. Does that mean we are not free?
Dazh would be with the rest of us calling out the politicians who had called the invasion
Kelvin you’re misrepresenting again. Do I need to reach for the report button again?Find me one quote where I’ve supported Putin. You won’t find one.
I didn’t say you were supporting Putin.
Although whatever I type here will get deleted anyway, again, once you’ve reported me, again, as we can’t call you out when you claim we want nuclear war, that we want a preemptive nuclear strike. You can misrepresent others just fine.
Your “all the world leaders are to blame” stuff should be called out. Only one world leader is involved in attacking Ukraine now.
dazh
Kelvin you’re misrepresenting again. Do I need to reach for the report button again?Find me one quote where I’ve supported Putin. You won’t find one
Didn't you recently say how people should take the forum too seriously.
You seem to be reporting anyone that is pointing out obvious and patently true errors in your posts.
The report button isn't a lifeboat when you feel under pressure from the obvious being pointed out to you time and time again from poster after poster.
I actually admire some of your posts in other contentious topics on here. Genuinely.
On this topic however, you are patently wrong and I have no problem in saying so.
Sorry but that’s a ridiculous analogy. In lockdown all we had to do was stay at home. In war we’d have to kill other people and perhaps sacrifice ourselves. The two don’t compare.
I think they do, in both cases society/government is telling you to do something that would not normally be asked of you as an individual. The degree of sacrifice is obviously much greater with conscription/war but the principle is the same. It’s an individual vs society issue.
I presume you feel that there should not have been conscription in the UK in WW2 even if it would have meant defeat?
Stop squabbling children.
and the apparent tendency of people to create a simplistic goodies vs baddies Hollywood Cold War type story.
This absolutely. I find the tendency of westerners to characterise this war as a good vs evil battle from the comfort of our cosy living rooms extremely offensive. People are dying. Millions have seen their lives destroyed, including those in Russia who are going to be cast into poverty as a result of sanctions thanks to their deranged president. And here we are talking about goodies vs baddies! It’s pathetic quite frankly.
People are dying. Millions have seen their lives destroyed, including those in Russia who are going to be cast into poverty as a result of sanctions thanks to their deranged president.
At last we can all start to agree on something.
frankconway
Full Member
Stop squabbling children.
Sorry Frank and other posters but I'm a little fed up watching this horrendous war unfolding everyday in front of us and being told this is Ukraine's/ its governments fault.
Its wrong and it needs to be said.
dazh
thanks to their deranged president
At last.