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Putin will probably blame the BOBMF And 617 squadron for the breach.
I see that US is suggesting they are just declassifying evidence for release today or tomorrow to prove it was the Russians. U2 plane overhead at the time?
More likely footage of the Russians rigging the dam to blow months ago, if memory serves the OSINT accounts were reporting back in October that the dam had been mined.
Allegedly Zelensky publicly requested UN observers at the dam last October, if anyone has any proof of that itd be appreciated.
Time to give the Ukrainians what they need to finish the job. The Russians have the capability to destroy the whole country, and apparently they have the will as well.
Agree with DrJ. The west should reduce to rubble every deep sea port, air strip, army barracks, weapons manufacturer / logistics hub / transportation link and power stations aiding the Russian war effort between Moscow and Ukraine.
The west should reduce to rubble every deep sea port, air strip, army barracks, weapons manufacturer / logistics hub / transportation link and power stations aiding the Russian war effort between Moscow and Ukraine.
Great idea. You must be a big fan of nuclear war. 🙄
Ach Poppycock Daz. Every step of the way folk have said "if you respond Vlad will pull out the Nukes!". I'm calling that bullshit - it's not happened so far and unlikey to happen any time soon. Even if they did push the big red button, you think the things either exist or would actually work - I'm betting his "nukes" are papermache.
Bomb their armed forces back to the Stone Age and give them time to think about their actions.
As the Ukrainians do liberate more cities and towns the war-crime count will multiply yet the BRICS countries still parle with Putin. What an astonishingly divided world we live in.
I suppose a analogy would be the west didn't get actively involved in Kashmir, Tamil, Myanmar, etc.
We're still selling arms to Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen, whilst buying Saudi Oil, whilst Saudi buys Russian oil for it's domestic use.
So is it much of a surprise that Brazil or India aren't getting involved in European problems?
Even if they did push the big red button, you think the things either exist or would actually work – I’m betting his “nukes” are papermache.
All it takes is one bomb on London and the entire UK economy would collapse. Just take a second to think about the consequences of that and then decide if your macho chest-beating feels as good. It's a good job more sensible and less gung-ho people are in charge of western military and geo-political strategy. 🙄
Frankly that would be the least of our problems.
Yes, but some people seem to think everything will be ok if only we have a 'small' war with nuclear weapons involved. They're deranged.
The only hope in this entire f***** up situation is that those in charge on both sides are focused on avoiding that scenario. At some point we're going to need to de-escalate this situation and that's going to require some tough compromises on both sides, because the alternative is unthinkable.
I don't think anyone has typed that on here. Nukes = planet of the apes it's that simple.
Also it's not a me problem I have no control over it. sadly there is a deranged loon that has something of a say in the argument.
Either the west supplys Ukraine or Russia would have taken it then Poland?
It would have ended in a NATO war one man has started this and he started it a long time ago.
The uk is guilty of not calling him out at least 3 governments ago.
I don’t think anyone has typed that on here.
Scruff9252 clearly thinks it's worth testing if Russia has at least one functional nuke and the willingness to use them. The phrase 'Russian roulette' has never been more relevant.
The uk is guilty of not calling him out at least 3 governments ago.
There were many people warning long ago the consequences of NATO expansion and Putin's megalomaniac impulses. Unfortunately they were dismissed as peaceniks and appeasers.
Daz - you're havering.
What's happening in Ukraine is not due to "Nato's Expansion". It's Putin trying a landgrab to rebuild the former glorious USSR. Stop making excuses for him.
Even if they did push the big red button, you think the things either exist or would actually work
Stop making excuses for him.
Stop making excuses for failed western foreign policy. There are two sides to this and your simplistic baddies vs goodies analysis belongs in the playground, along with your 'bomb them back to the stone age' bravado. The Ukranians are victims of two large powers who saw fit to play out their geopolitical ambitions in their country. They've been f***** by both sides. At least that's what the Ukrainians that I know think about it.
NATO is the only reason that Putin hasnt tried to reclaim the whole of the former USSSR
Putins invasion has surely convinced even the most naive that land grabbing is all he ever cared about
dazh
Full MemberStop making excuses for failed western foreign policy.
This just seems like the difference between responsible and guilty. Yes western politicians have failed on this, in both directions- but 100% of blame for the invasin- the multiple invasions- of ukraine is on russia. Failing to stop them, failing to influence them better, is worthy of note but nobody outside of Russia caused the invasion. This is not nuanced stuff.
not sure if it's been mentioned before, but who put the dampers on Ukraine joining in 2008:
Mutti & Little Nicky are to blame
but who put the dampers on Ukraine joining in 2008:
Shouldn't that be less important than the reasons why ?. I mean they arent just going to let anybody join. And I think ones who are rife in corruption have to sort that first.
Ah, I see we’ve all forgotten the key point in this: “America Bad”
Some haven't. Others have their fingers in their ears and are shouting LA LA LA LA LA
Talking of not forgetting. From page 2 of this thread:
dyna-ti
Full Memberplus freeze Russia out of the international economic system.
And there goes Europe’s gas, so i don’t think they’ll be freezing alone.
Every bit of whatever happens yet again engineered by America. We’d be better allying ourselves to Russia,(A European state) and telling the US to go F itself. Plus Russia has more resources than anyone else. Be a win win for us.
I am not sure that holds true. It might be they considered this the only chance they have of retaining Crimea at all and so worth the risk
Not convinced by that. Destroying the dam is a one-shot deal and I'm not aware that Ukraine is doing any more than probing in force just now
Crossing the Dnipro river there was always going to be difficult because Ukraine doesn't have the necessary bridging capability so it's unlikely to have ever been a major axis of attack and Russia knows this
There's a massive front in Ukraine, hundreds of miles to be defended by Russia, expanded by the recent attacks into Belgorod.
Ukraine will have several plans and one will be the major axis if certain conditions are fulfilled. After the major axis of attack has played out the Dnipro delta will have had several summer months to dry and give forces the necessary mechanised access.
IMHO this was nothing more than wanton destruction of the delta, it's 10,000 hectares of agricultural land and makes Crimea agriculturally unsustainable too, so yes...
(after all if it doesnt work then it comes with a free scorched earth consolation prize)
Talking of not forgetting. From page 2 of this thread:
Weve all got some bad takes in this thread but that ones aged like a gallon of milk, an Ikea bag of Halibut and a dead Badger.
Talking of not forgetting. From page 2 of this thread:
Well done on noticing im pretty damn critical of the United States foreign policy 😆 But just reading the replies on here it appears somebody has to 😆
Millions dead, war after war after war, interference in sovereign countries politics and elections, the list is endless.
Whats the statistic 😕 The US has been at war with someone(or is that everyone 😆 ) for 222 of its 239 years since its inception in 1776.
So forgive me if im cynical and slightly bias
I think that’s a big IF though. More likely I think that destroying the dam/bridge makes it gets more difficult for Ukraine to attack at that point across the Dnipro enabling Russia to move some troops from that area.
I don't think that the dam would have been viable for a large force to cross. Too exposed and too easy to pre-range artillery. One destroyed tank stops the job
Crossing the delta downriver is too vulnerable to internal pre-set explosives within the dam, as is sadly obvious to all now
TBH leave me out of it, i no longer care.
So forgive me if im cynical and slightly bias
Or alternatively. You are so biased against America that you espouse a view that means anyone who opposes America is, almost by definintion, a good guy.
Even if they patently aren't.
I note both US and UK govts have still not confirmed that the Russians caused the dam failure. Must be a disappointment to the chest-beating armchair generals on here. So either:
- The Russians didn't do it and the west has evidence of that.
- The Ukrainians did it but there's no way the west will admit that.
- The Russians did it but the west is refraining from admitting it because that would require them to escalate their involvement.
Given that in the war so far western govts have not held back in pointing out Russian atrocities, Their failure to do the same about the dam seems significant.
The Ukranians are victims of two large powers who saw fit to play out their geopolitical ambitions in their country. They’ve been f***** by both sides. At least that’s what the Ukrainians that I know think about it
Ukraine is the victim of Russia alone.
You might argue that limiting types and supplies of weapons prolongs the war but I don't agree that that is deliberate; Ukraine armed with western weapons will always be better than Ukraine without
Given that in the war so far western govts have not held back in pointing out Russian atrocities, Their failure to do the same about the dam seems significant.
Or perhaps they have yet to gather such evidence & don't want to make claims they can't substantiate
I note both US and UK govts have still not confirmed that the Russians caused the dam failure. Must be a disappointment to the chest-beating armchair generals on here
The proper time to air a war crime is when it's evidenced:
MH17, evidenced
Kidnapping children, evidenced
Destruction of civilian residential areas and infra-structure, evidenced
Treatment of Ukrainian POWs, Bucha residents, etc, evidenced
Someone pushing a button in a bunker somewhere needs more investigation
The proper time to air a war crime is when it’s evidenced:
What, 44hrs not enough time to compile and prepare evidence of war crimes?
Indeed but the deputy US ambassador to the UN, Robert Wood, said: “We’re not certain at all, we hope to have more information in the coming days.
“But, I mean, come on … why would Ukraine do this to its own territory and people, flood its land, force tens of thousands of people to leave their homes – it doesn’t make sense.”
Obviously none of this fits with Dazh’s usual hysteria “chest-beating armchair generals on here”; what a load of old toss.
Weve all got some bad takes in this thread but that ones aged like a gallon of milk, an Ikea bag of Halibut and a dead Badger.
🤣👍
The proper time to air a war crime is when it’s evidenced:
Hasn't stopped them talking about war crimes previously when they haven't had time to properly investigate.
Hasn’t stopped them talking about war crimes previously when they haven’t had time to properly investigate
Hundreds of witnesses and victims is pretty compelling. We confidently convict criminals with the evidence of many fewer
Possibly just Poland and some other piling on some pressure
A group of Nato countries may be willing to put troops on the ground in Ukraine if member states including the US do not provide tangible security guarantees to Kyiv at the alliances’s summit in Vilnius, the former Nato secretary general Anders Rasmussen has said.
So forgive me if im cynical and slightly bias
No problem with cynicism but do you still believe we should align ourselves with Russia?
but do you still believe we should align ourselves with Russia?
Currently ?, i wouldn't think so. Maybe in the future when we're all friends again.