Politico are reporting multilateral political pressue being applied to Germany to allow/participate a coalition of Leapord users to re-export to Ukraine.
https://www.politico.eu/article/france-and-poland-push-germany-to-send-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine/
French official told POLITICO that Paris is turning the screws on Germany in the hope of extracting an agreement from Berlin to send Leopard tanks to Ukraine ahead of a Franco-German summit on January 22, the 60th anniversary of the Élysée partnership treaty between the two nations.Similar pressure is coming from Poland, which wants to form a broad coalition among Western partners to jointly hand over Leopards to Ukraine. “We encourage other countries to form a broad coalition for the transfer of more modern tanks to Ukraine, such as Leopard tanks,” Deputy Foreign Minister Paweł Jabłoński told Polish public radio on Monday.
They have those planes. The Ukrainians who have roughly the same aircraft have been using them from improvised bases for most of the conflict.
The Russians dont seem to have effective stand off anti radar weapons which means the Ukrainians still have a lot of their heavy AA missiles still available
Thanks for explaining that, it seems to underline the point about mutually inclusive platforms being necessary to form a system.
Does the UK have "those planes"? They used to operate Harriers in the woods at RAF Wittering, does the F35 have that sort of capability?
There is a VTOL version of the F35. Can't remember if the UK bought any of those though.
We've bought the F35B short take-off, vertical landing (STOVL) version.
Some good videos on YT showing both capabilities.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1613181488341700613?t=fzEPlkHnOAWR99u0hzfuMg&s=19
Anyone seen verification of this?
This ^^^ is great news. Maybe all the stalling was over training....
If that's true, and from what was being said on Radio 4 last night, the German's must have granted an export license. Hopefully this means other countries and Germany will supply many more.
Looks like the UK will send some Challenger2 as well!
It's great that we want to send tanks but it seems they ideally need to stick to a single type if Ukraine is branching out from the old Soviet and Ukrainian stock they currently have. I can't see us sending many Challengers so therefore is it really worth it to train up the engineers just for a handful. Leopards on the other hand appear to be in numerous quantity, it just needed the various governments to be given a push. Maybe the talk of Challengers was to give that push and is mostly lip service so Germany will give the go ahead for the Leopards.
Leaopards also have an existing supply chain in Poland
President Duda announces that Poland will transfer 14 Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine.
Maybe all the stalling was over training….
Training is (likely) mostly about getting the army in Poland up to speed on the Abrams going to them. Important that other countries don't weaken their own defences as they ship equipment to Ukraine. I know some people still believe that Russian state aggression will stay limited to Ukraine, often the same people that thought they wouldn't invade Ukraine (again), but Putin will jump on any weakness.
Reminds me of this little exchange...
newstatesman: WATCH: Boris Johnson claimed the days of big tank battles in Europe were over
Just 14? Hopefully the tip of the iceberg.
I can’t help feeling that for all that the Ukrainians need equipment, they are going to end up with a horrible mush-mash of different stuff. That must surely cause all sorts of logistical and training issues which will limit their overall effectiveness.
Yes, but it's better than nothing!! The obvious solution is to divide the kit up by units/Areas.
That’s a problem that other countries are taking on for them in the main. One of the reasons that kit from USA and elsewhere is going to European countries so that they can sent some of their own on… to reduce the variety going to Ukraine.
Big news
BBC News - Ukraine war: Sergei Surovikin removed as commander of Ukraine invasion force
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64235713
He's not going to want to walk past any open windows is he.
Quite!
There has been quite the revolving door for generals in charge of the Ukraine invasion, which speaks volumes about how badly it's going for Russia. I live in fear that the next one they appoint is going to be competent, and be able to leverage Russia's advantages in economic and miliary might to make progress in Ukraine, especially as they have a history of starting poorly and eventually succeeding, but so far each one has failed. It's starting to look like their whole system has been so hollowed out by corruption that it doesn't matter who's in charge.
With all the armoured vehicles being sent (like the Bradleys, etc), roughly how long would it take to get trained on using them,to be considered ready to use them in battle? I’m assuming it will be months before the Ukrainians can take them to the front?
(and separately, how long is the training a British soldier would have on a challenger or warrior or the other armoured vehicles before being considered ready?)
Surely they've done the training recently in the UK and other NATO bases?
20 weeks for drivers (Troopers), but that includes licence acquisition, driver maintenence, communications and learning to fight the tank. All based around no previous knowledge.
There are further courses for more senior personnel in terms of gunnery, loading and commanding the tank.
Similar courses exist for the Imfantry and other capbadges that operate armoured vehicles.
Training in the UK would be conducted at Bovington (driving) and Lulworth (gunnery). There always the plain for bigger formation training.
I'm sure more bespoke courses could be offered that capitalise on existing knowledge and skills.
I'm not sure how much truth there is in the CR2 chat, I'm pretty sure that the Dorchester armour is still very much restricted and carries significant security classification.
But who knows what will happen.
The politicians have obviously done their sums and decided that western MBTs won't upset the conventional weapons balance and precipitate an escalation
The Leopard 2 are the obvious fit in Ukraine because of the numbers produced and the number of European countries that could provide a few adding up to a decent-sized force. A single MBT sourced in Europe would also simplify logistics and the training of maintenance crews.
Challenger and Leclerc MBTs combined production totals about a third of that of the Leopard and both have been sold to only a couple of countries and would be much thinner on the ground.
Abrams production numbers is about 3x that of Leopards so maybe we'll see a few of those
(Thanks Wikipedia for the numbers used)
Abrams production numbers is about 3x that of Leopards so maybe we’ll see a few of those
The Abrams also uses a ludicrously complex and fuel-hungry gas turbine engine that is nothing like anything any Ukrainian techies have ever had to deal with, whereas the diesel powertrain on the leopard or challenger are going to take considerably less time to get their heads around.
Although I fully realise that the last 10 months have clearly shown that the average Ukrainian's ability to MacGyver their way to victory shouldn't be underestimated.
Good point here from Mike Martin who usually talks a lot of sense. Russians throwing everything at Soledar and Bahkmut for no particular reason other than being able to show a small victory. Ukrainians happy to let them expend huge resources for little gain while they wait to pounce elsewhere.
https://twitter.com/ThreshedThought/status/1613547734019018754?t=WB4cMHZZU_6IA4-RkPb6QA&s=19
Abrams aren’t heading to Ukraine, they’re heading to European countries so that they can forward Leopards and other easier to mobilise kit to Ukraine. I’m repeating myself now though.
Good point here from Mike Martin who usually talks a lot of sense. Russians throwing everything at Soledar and Bahkmut for no particular reason other than being able to show a small victory. Ukrainians happy to let them expend huge resources for little gain while they wait to pounce elsewhere.
Fingers crossed this is what is happening.
As for the 'Russians can use the mines as a warmer, drier base and storage for troops and vehicles' thought - I am assuming the Ukrainians know ever exit from the mines, and the full layout. It may be rather useful to effectively trap a lot of Russian resources in there temporarily.
It may be rather useful to effectively trap a lot of Russian resources in there [s]temporarily[/s] permanently.
FTFY
Considering that the Ukranians have at least 1 Pion 203mm heavy mortar active in the Soledar area I imagine they will have little trouble in doing so.
I would be very surprised if Ukrainian combat engineers hadn't left a lot of explodey surprises in those tunnels. Even if they haven't the Russians will have to assume they have and take a long time clearing them.
I would be very surprised if Ukrainian combat engineers hadn’t left a lot of explodey surprises in those tunnels.
A few bottles of Vodka left behind by the guards, with some polonium flavouring, could be effective.
Can we all take another moment to appreciate the Ukraine meme production. 👏
I have also worked out why the salt mines are so important to the Wagner generals.
.
.
No windows
Can we all take another moment to appreciate the Ukraine meme production.
Yes, they are very good at it.
No windows but maybe plenty of long lift shafts instead (might be the wrong type of mine).
Videos showing Wagner PMCs getting surprisingly close to Ukr forces and then shooting them up.
Disturbing.
Talk of Wagner wearing Ukr colours and one video supposedly had the Ukr shouting "you're one of ours" just before being murdered.
It may be rather useful to effectively trap a lot of Russian resources in there temporarily.
Yeah I thought the same thing. Plus salt mines really can't be the best place to store already shonky Russian military equipment. (Never buy a second hand bike that's lived by the coast!)
branes
Full Member
It may be rather useful to effectively trap a lot of Russian resources in there temporarily.Yeah I thought the same thing. Plus salt mines really can’t be the best place to store already shonky Russian military equipment. (Never buy a second hand bike that’s lived by the coast!)
That's not the case. Salt mines are generally lovely and dry, otherwise they wouldn't have salt in them, it would dissolve.
I think there are some in the Peak area in the UK which are used for storage of documents and stuff.
Talk of Wagner wearing Ukr colours and one video supposedly had the Ukr shouting “you’re one of ours” just before being murdered
Ah, that explains that video. If Wagner are wearing UKR colours that also explains why they don't want any other Russian groups in the area 🙁
Yet another war crime to add to an already long list. 🤬
Sadly, they care not for the rules of war. Nor will they be held to account as Russia will NEVER comply with any tribunals.
Plus salt mines really can’t be the best place to store already shonky Russian military equipment
Salt mines are generally pretty good storage facilities.
In the UK there is Deepstore Records Management Facility in Cheshire which is used by National Archives and various other organisations for long term document storage.
Russia will NEVER comply with any tribunals
Well they would, but it would take a massive escalation (ie, WWII level of defeat) which is almost certain never to happen (and if their was such an escalation, I doubt any of us will be here to have a new version of the Nurenberg Trials).
Against a nuclear power that just isn't going to happen.
