Proportionality is a guideline in UK ROE, problem is it's subjective, how do you define what is and isn't? Only with significant hindsight and that creates more questions and problems.
Doesn't help with the war-hawks and war porn junkies in this day and age who've never seen up close the effect on the human body of various weapons and munitions and who think it's a game to be enjoyed before 10am.
But one thing for me that is immovable; deliberately targeting civilians is in no way, nor ever will be, proportional. The lessons of history are there to learn, problem is ole Putin gives zero ****s about anyone else, even his own people.
Yep - he treats his own citizens in a similar fashion, just not quite so visibly on the streets.
Skip to 5.13 to see Mcnamara talk about Japan and how he, Truman and the American generals were war criminals
For context also listen to Dan Carlin's podcasts called "Supernova in the East" (especially the last episode which deals with the firebombing of Tokyo by LeMay's strategic bomber sqdns) about the rise of Imperial Japan, and how otherwise sane and intelligent people like McNamara end up in a situation where firebombing Tokyo is a logical and sensible thing to do*
* I'm not suggesting that it was a logical or sensible thing to do, but how people after 6 years of brutal warfare can get there. Also, let's be clear, by any measure (either at the time or with hindsight) Curtis LeMay couldn't ever be described by anyone as sensible or logical.
Nickc - just finished on episode 6 - very good on the human dimension of horrific events, and how people justify these decisions to themselves…
Curtis LeMay couldn’t ever be described by anyone as sensible or logical.
Wasn't he the inspiration for General Buck Turgidson?
This is historically ignorant.
Excellent post thols2.
Nonsense. The evidence is utterly overwhelming. Getting a prosecution is another matter, but there is really no doubt whatsoever that Russia has been deliberately and systematically brutalizing and murdering innocent civilians.
Yup, the evidence is pretty conclusive. It's also almost as if the person you're replying to has never heard of the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal.
I’m still confused that some on here seem to think Putin and Russia are still communist/Socialist. They really aren’t, and that’s why there are American right wingers backing him
My point was less about Russia's actual political policy and more about how American right-wingers seem to be drawn to it despite a recent poll showing 52% of Republicans, 56% of Trump voters, and 42% of all Americans think Russia is still communist.
...the far right in America is pouring petrol with their disinformation beliefs. Which is being lapped up in Moscow. Article in the Guardian this morning.
Yep. Which is the part that amazes me. Not so very long ago you'd be run out of town for suggesting that any good ol' boy God-fearing freedum luvin Murican would support Russia.
Now those apparently same demographics are being drawn towards the right-wing authoritarianism because they like that "strong" Putin upsets the librul snowflakes and fights against the growing "evils" of gender equality, homosexuality, trans rights etc
This is the Grauniad article mentioned by the way:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/06/us-right-wing-republicans-russia-ukraine-disinformation
I periodically check the Fox News website and yesterday it had more articles about Hunter Biden's Laptop than the war in Ukraine. The war itself didn't even make the top 10 articles.
So for half of the US population the War has already receded into the background. Unlike us, they are not seeing news about the atrocities that have been and are being commited by the Russians right now.
because they like that “strong” Putin upsets the librul snowflakes
Yeah, I read an a article that describes them as Anti "anti-Putin" they're not necessarily pro Putin, they're just arguing against the people they perceive to be anti-Putin just to take the opposite view to keep up the partisanship
Whatever propaganda Fox News, Farage , Carlson etc are spinning for Putin
his war is not going to plan
It seems that the Ukrainians are pursuing the same tactics that worked well in the North again, this time in donbass and the east- hitting russian supply lines in the rear so their front lines are compromised
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1511672397946138630
Whatever propaganda Fox News, Farage , Carlson etc are spinning for Putin
his war is not going to plan
Sadly that won't change the minds of the recipients of the Fox/Farage/Carlson/etc propaganda.
As Bret Schafer (Alliance for Securing Democracy) concluded in that Graniud article:
“Given that many within those audiences have been primed to dismiss and distrust the ‘mainstream’ media and expertise writ large, there’s no amount of factchecking and objective reporting that is likely to change attitudes once certain falsehoods become adopted as facts.”
Depressingly, it looks like the Home Office is still applying it's 'Hostile Environment' ethos to refugees. A 51 page visa application to be made from whichever country you pitch up in, then a two week wait (at least) to process the application.
It would be easy to put it down to the usual incompetence but it appears that they're doing everything in their power to put obstacles in the way of families wanting to take in refugees, with some absolutely farcical reasons being given for rejecting people
700 applications have been approved out of 32,000 made, and 250,000 families offering to take people in are sat their waiting for the Home Office to pull its ****ing finger out
I'm absolutely ashamed of this country and its absolutely pathetic and inhumane response to this crisis
I don’t know - American commentators seem to be saying there is broad bipartisan support for helping Ukraine, and this in a country where there hasn’t been bipartisan support for anything for years…
Where the reps and dems differ is, surprise surprise, admission of refugees…
Also agree with Binners - Uk treatment of refugees is shameful - sadly I’m not sure I expected much different…
I’m absolutely ashamed of this country government and its absolutely pathetic and inhumane response to this crisis everything.
Depressingly, it looks like the Home Office is still applying it’s ‘Hostile Environment’ ethos to refugees. A 51 page visa application to be made from whichever country you pitch up in, then a two week wait (at least) to process the application.
Local TV news have been following a guy who's been trying to get his extended family into the UK since the war started. He met them at the Polish border, got them as far as Holland, and has now had weeks fighting the system to try and get them visas.
Announced today his family - the family of a UK citizen - have given up on the UK and are heading to Ireland.
Absolutely ****ing disgraceful.
"over 40" Russian vehicles destroyed by Ukrainian Artillery fire on a Russian rear base.
How close did they have to be to shell behind enemy lines? How did they get that close?
and 250,000 families offering to take people in are sat their waiting for the Home Office to pull its ****ing finger out
A caller told a local radio station that he was told to send in a gas safety cert and show evidence of adequate household insurance cover. No one at the home office could tell him what "adequate" means
binners
Full Member700 applications have been approved out of 32,000 made, and 250,000 families offering to take people in are sat their waiting for the Home Office to pull its ****ing finger out
Inevitable really. Johnston gets to make headlines with the announcement then Patel gets to entertain herself by making it practically impossible to do.
How close did they have to be to shell behind enemy lines? How did they get that close?
Depends on the size of the artillery, I know the British Army have stuff that can lob a shell over 15 miles, I presume the Russian pieces that the Ukrainian use are similar. So not that close in the scheme of things.
How close did they have to be to shell behind enemy lines? How did they get that close?
They've got Soviet era multi launch rocket systems with a range of 70km, and self propelled guns with a range of 40km.
Announced today his family – the family of a UK citizen – have given up on the UK and are heading to Ireland.
It was saying on Radio 4 that this is happening across the board. People are just giving up trying and just going to more welcoming countries, ie: everywhere else
I don't doubt for a second that this was exactly what this shower of shite government intended. How to not end up taking in any refugees without actually coming out and saying 'we're not going to take in any refugees'
I don't know how Priti Patel, the daughter of refugees taken in by the UK, can sleep at night. Pull that ladder up behind yourself, eh?
I don’t know how Priti Patel, the daughter of refugees taken in by the UK, can sleep at night. Pull that ladder up behind yourself, eh?
That's how Tories work. They justify not being kind by saying 'well we managed, I managed, so you can you'.
Priti on the outside, perhaps.
She should read some 
I read the Guardian article earlier. Closing paragraph is where we are as a society right now with no sign of it getting better.
I don’t know how Priti Patel, the daughter of refugees taken in by the UK, can sleep at night. Pull that ladder up behind yourself, eh?
Pritler doesn't sleep per se, she just rests in a box full of earth dug up from North Essex until she has to go and feed again.
Here's an account of the type of vicious bureaucracy that Pritler has put in place.
If you haven't read the Guardian piece, it's a depressing read.
‘Homes for Ukraine’ is just a slogan – as I found out by trying to welcome a refugee
Yet again, its just a three word slogan in place of any actual policy. this government is an utter disgrace
That’s an order of magnitude worse than anything the U.S. has done in the last 40 years.
Bollocks is it. 10 times worse than Fallujah? You need to get some perspective.
NB what the Russians are doing is terrible. I want Putin out. But have some perspective nothing that is happening is x10 worse than what the Americans did in parts of Iraq.
10 times worse than Fallujah?
Yes, much, much worse.
EDIT: I disagree
nothing that is happening is x10 worse than what the Americans did in parts of Iraq.
How do you know?
There's only so bad you can be. Nothing is 10x worse than chemical weapons that cause birth defects for years to come.
Dunno, being raped, summarily shot in the back of the head and dumped in a mass grave seems pretty shit to me as well.
And apart from Assad/Putin (Russia) and Saddam, who's chucked chemical weapons around recently?
There’s only so bad you can be. Nothing is 10x worse than chemical weapons that cause birth defects for years to come.
Nothing is 10x worse than chemical weapons that cause birth defects for years to come.
Nothing at all? Is that an absolute? I am certainly not condoning anything that happened in Iraq (some of it was quite horrific) but I'd suggest that what we are being told is happening right now in Ukraine is certainly up there as being >10x worse.
Yes I am wrong. If you used x10 the amount of chemicals then...
Nothing I have seen is close to that.
Hundreds of children have been killed by US drone strikes in the last 40 years X10 worse than that?
X10 worse than the methodical torture program of the US?
Come on!
Nothing is 10x worse than chemical weapons that cause birth defects for years to come.
Are you saying the Americans used chemical weapons in Fallujah? Did I miss something somewhere?
They used white phosphorus
Hundreds of children have been killed by US drone strikes in the last 40 years X10 worse than that?
Russia appears to have surpassed this in weeks, not 4 decades
Ah, yeah that they did. Used it to flush out buildings full of civilians, which is a no-no.
Yeah, but some people's political leanings can't process or allow for anyone other than the US bad guys.
I mean the same people are often quiet on the brutality of many other regimes and organizations. But you know, murica bad.
Russia appears to have surpassed this in weeks, not 4 decades
It is possible to abhor both US and Russian bombs.
Are you saying the Americans used chemical weapons in Fallujah? Did I miss something somewhere?
& other stuff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_77_bomb
It is? Thanks for pointing that out, I'd never have gleaned that nugget if it weren't for your astute observation.
The thing is I don't believe some of you, you seem to be very vocal in one direction. Like this thread; it's about Russian aggression in Ukraine, yet some still insist on popping in to let us know that what's happening isn't as bad as {insert other area of conflict}.
It is possible to abhor both US and Russian bombs.
Nope
Gosh, that convinced me
It is possible to abhor both US and Russian bombs.
I abhor all of them regardless of who is using them
Problem is, it doesn't stop people using them
