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That was the deal offered by Russia.
That was not the deal offered by Russia. Russia's "deal" is that it sees Ukraine as part of Russia and refuses to recognize its sovereignty. Russia's ultimatum to Ukraine back in 2014 was to either reject closer ties with the EU or face invasion. It was not a "deal", it was an ultimatum backed up by threat of war. As a sovereign nation, Ukraine has the right to reject ultimatums like that. Russia then invaded Ukraine in violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. The problem here is Russia, not Ukraine, not NATO, not the EU.
..
Do you see England honouring the results of an independence referendum should it go against them ?.
That could well be a question for the future.
Will we see the US siding with England and claiming the Scottish referendum is illegal.
LOL, fantasy stuff
If the referendum is legal and binding then of course it will be respected. The last one would have been respected.
Gas is an internationally traded commodity, so prices are set by the market.Any price pressure just ramps up the speed of decarbonisation. RUK government has Barnett savings, I imagine it will also stop the massive tax subsidies for decommissioning etc. In other words paying Scotland for gas isn't an issue in a web of complexity unless they start territory grabs and threatening to shut the gas off which is fantasy stuff
The rats are abandoning ship
She could just be visiting her mum for the weekend
She could just be visiting her mum for the
weekendduration of hostilities.
I'm sure it'll all be over with by Easter and she'll be back home with her hubby.
So, either the Ukrainian leaders are so utterly stupid that they wait years and years until there is a huge Russian army assembled on their borders, then they attack Russia, or Russia is using the exact transparently bullshit excuse for an invasion that everyone knew they would use once they'd finished assembling their invasion force.
https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1494956256771063813
Maybe it’s those bastard Americans doing the shelling? I bet it’s another part of their dastardly imperialist plot to discredit Putin and the Russians
We’ve already established that absolutely everything else in the world is their fault, after all
Makes you think…
A friend of mine is married to a Russian whose family live near the Ukrainian border. (30km away) He whatsapped the group saying Ukraine had attacked Russia last night. He's flying her family out.
There are other threads for Scottish Indy discussion. Let’s try and keep it off this one.
This about Ukraine being invaded by Russia. They have asked for assistance from NATO. NATO has not invaded Ukraine and has no plans to.
Having clarified that, what is it about Putin that you guys admire so much?
They've flooded Ukraine with weapons though which could easily be seen as an act of aggression.
Not a fan of Putin myself. What is it about Boris YOU admire so much?
This is not football, it's not about taking sides and cheering them on. I am against war and hope to god there isn't one.
https://twitter.com/eliothiggins/status/1494954072566378502?s=21
I’m sure it’s all the work of the U.S.
…somehow…
dyna-ti
Free Member
I stopped referring to you or anything you had to say 3 pages back.
No, you did not. Stop making things up. You're as shameless as the Russian propaganda outlets.
dazh
Full Member
Oh look, Russia is moving troops back to their bases. A lot of people on here are going to be very disappointed.
Was anyone actually naive enough to believe the Russian claim that they were withdrawing rather than repositioning ready to attach Ukraine? If you were, I have a Sick bicycle you might be interested in purchasing.
What was that 😕 Did i hear something there ?,
Nope, nothing that concerns me. Moving along.
I’m sure it’s all the work of the U.S.
Havent the US just delivered a huge cache of weapons to this group ?, so in effect they are somewhat responsible.
Or it could have been British munitions and training, so technically you are correct.
so in effect they are somewhat responsible.
Nope, Putin is entirely responsible for this. He attacked Ukraine in 2014. NATO countries did not supply Ukraine with any weapons until after Russia invaded. Supplying weapons to a country that has been invaded is not a provocation to the invader. The fault lies entirely with the invading country (which is Russia, in case you have forgotten).
You have to grudgingly admire the Russian propagandists. They know that everyone knows they're just making shit up, but they just don't care. That's their whole point, they'll do whatever they want and don't care what anyone thinks.
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1494994307614400513
NATO countries did not supply Ukraine with any weapons until after Russia invaded.
Are you sure?
I find it remarkable, that that chap whose name i forget, is now agreeing that Russia supplying Syria is totally legitimate and not a provocation.
What an astounding turn of events 😯
Are you sure?
Ukraine still uses Russian/Warsaw Pact equipment, a lot of the Soviet military factories were in Ukraine so it produces some weapons itself. After Russia invaded in 2014, Ukraine asked NATO countries for help, but they were only offered "non-lethal" assistance, not weapons. This was because there was no hope of Ukraine actually beating Russia in a straight-up fight and the Russian invasion ground to a stalemate so sending weapons would only have escalated it into a bigger stalemate. Once it became clear in recent months that Russia was building up for a large-scale offensive, NATO agreed to supply anti-tank and anti-helicopter missiles. NATO definitely did not supply Ukraine with any heavy or advanced weaponry before Russia invaded in 2014, all of Ukraine's heavy weapons were of Russian or Warsaw Pact origin.
dyna-ti
Free Member
I find it remarkable, that that chap whose name i forget, is now agreeing that Russia supplying Syria is totally legitimate and not a provocation.What an astounding turn of events
@dyna-ti
Don't make things up, it's pathetic. The problem with Syria is that the government flagrantly ignored human-rights concerns in the civil war. It simply slaughtered thousands of innocent civilians, including using chemical weapons. Russia supported them in this. Supplying weapons to a democratically elected government fighting an invasion is not the same thing as using chemical weapons against helpless civilians.
But you already know that, you just don't care do you? If you have to make up nonsense like that, step back, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why you have such breathless admiration for murderous tyrants.
I will now state for the record that I am being forced against my will to engage in discussion with the member 'Thols2'
ask yourself why you have such breathless admiration for murderous tyrants.
One could level the same accusation against yourself and your endearing admiration for the US led NATO alliance.
dyna-ti
Free Member
I thought we were discussing the Russia/Nato/Ukrainian thing.Oh do try to stay on topic 🙄
Why the idea that Putin would back down and not invade was always naive.
https://twitter.com/ProfPaulPoast/status/1495012102418878465
https://twitter.com/ProfPaulPoast/status/1495012650228621312
Is there an echo in here 😕
Oh yes, to continue on topic.
Russia feels its actions are totally justified in taking whatever steps it feels it needs to, in what it views as aggressive expansion by NATO.
Russia feels its actions are totally justified in taking whatever steps it feels it needs to
Yep, that is Russia's position. It can do whatever it wants for whatever reason it wants and no criticism will be tolerated. Ukraine disagrees, it take the view that it's a sovereign nation and Russia does not have any right to invade it.
I agree with Ukraine on this, just in case you were under any illusions.
Is there any other countries with such a massive military budget, who have been starting wars left ,right and center over the last 30 years ?.
And routinely invents pretexts to justify massive and brutal invasions. Like Israel, you mean?
I agree that you have a right to agree.
Or disagree.
I fear we have to invoke Thols2 here to remind you to stay on topic, and Israel is not part of this topic. You know how ranty he gets when faced with opposite debates and points of view.
He'll be accusing you of siding with isis in Somalia or something.
The false flag operation that launched Putin's career.
https://twitter.com/razhael/status/1494738097849962496
You have to grudgingly admire the
RussianTory “partygate” propagandists. They know that everyone knows they’re just making shit up, but they just don’t care. That’s their whole point, they’ll do whatever they want and don’t care what anyone thinks.
FTFY
They’ve flooded Ukraine with weapons though which could easily be seen as an act of
aggressiondeterrence
Seeing as the weapons aren't that much use for offensive operations
There are other threads for Scottish Indy discussion. Let’s try and keep it off this one.
To be fair it was more an insight into the thought processes of the poster.
Seeing as the weapons aren’t that much use for offensive operations
Dude, you're arguing with a guy who thinks that Syrian civilians getting bombed with chemical weapons set them up for the "win". Not much point trying fact based stuff on him, he just doesn't care. If a democratic country is involved, it's bad. If a brutal dictator is involved, it's sticking it to the man.
I would also point out one side of the discussion aligns with what Rod Liddle thinks
The other doesn't
Jesus wept, this is truly pathetic playground level nonsense.
Lalalala can't hear you. Tell him I'm not talking to him
Grow up.
That is a ridiculous statement B'n'D. They are for both offence and defence.
That is a ridiculous statement B’n’D. They are for both offence and defence.
Those are all light infantry weapons. You ain't gonna launch an attack on Moscow driving Humvees. The only country shipping heavy offensive weapons into Ukraine is Russia.
Jesus wept, this is truly pathetic playground level nonsense.
Lalalala can’t hear you. Tell him I’m not talking to him
Grow up.
Sorry Squirrelking, but i cant actually find reference to that quote you've just posted. I mean you went to the trouble of highlighting it as a quote, but it actually appears like you've cobbled it together, added your own interpretation and posted it up as a legitimate quote.
dyna-ti
Free Member
added your own interpretation and posted it up as a legitimate quote.
LOL. Dude, go back and look over your history on this thread of making stuff up.
You're bickering again Thols. You've been previously warned about that haven't you.
But thols you do agree that USA has been messing in countries that it has no business messing in for that last 50 years don't you? Iraq, Libya, all over central America, Vietnam etc. You are not denying that are you?
I'm not denying that Russia has been up to no good.
I’m not denying that Russia has been up to no good.
Obviously. But that isnt important to 'the other individual' just by you saying the US can be just as bad if not more so, is tantamount to you agreeing with the Putin regime.
You’re bickering again Thols. You’ve been previously warned about that haven’t you.
No. The only person who got warned was you.
My mistake then. I thought Drac was connected to the moderation team*
.
*
Best group of people you could ever want to be moderated by. Mother Theresa and Gandhi don't have a patch on....
😛
But thols you do agree that USA has been messing in countries that it has no business messing in for that last 50 years don’t you?
This thread is about Ukraine. I was utterly opposed to the invasion of Iraq, it was obviously going to be a disaster. I hoped I was wrong and took no pleasure in being proved right. I'm too young to remember the Vietnam disaster, but that was the same. Those are the two biggest U.S. disasters in the last century, but the U.S. has had many disastrous interventions in other countries' business.
In this case, Russia is making pretty much the same mistake the U.S. made over and over again. In the case of Ukraine, Russia is utterly in the wrong. The U.S. being wrong in previous instances has no bearing on Russia being wrong in this one.
Rod Liddle thinks
Little evidence for that.
My mistake then.
The clue here is that the only person behaving offensively was you. You should think about that.
dyna-ti
Free MemberI dont think anyone has said directly that Russia is correct in this.
Russia is specifically not morally correct in its actions. This has little relevance in reality though.
But do you still stand by your statement that NATO, are not expanding right up to their perceived enemy Russia. And that this is by no means an sign of aggression.
I never said that. Stop making things up.
NATO has not invaded Russia. NATO has not invaded Ukraine. Ukraine has not invaded Russia. Russia has invade Ukraine. In this, Russia is the aggressor. Those are the facts.
NATO has not invaded Russia. NATO has not invaded Ukraine.
NOBODY has said they have thols. NOBODY.
What has been said though is Russia feels that NATO building bases on their border is aggressive. And if we accept that NATO is an enemy to Russia, then it clearly is.
It is as aggressive as Russia putting 130,000 troops on the border of Ukraine. There is no difference.
Everyone here has agreed with this, but some on this thread has attacked all and sundry for suggesting that Russia might feel justified in their actions. Seems the only opinion that matters to these people is their own.
Therefore if you suggest such, then they feel you agree with the annexation of Crimea, Syria atrocities, this ,that and anything and everything thats bad in the world.
The tactic being used is evasion of any counter question by attacking the questioner. They wont listen, they wont agree, its always straight on the assault, accusing them of anything and making it out as a given position.
Then they have the audacity of referring this to a debate.
Thols your excitement has reached new heights. Please post a picture of your model battle reenactment. I bet you’ve got hand painted tanks and everything.
Stop trolling.
@dyna-ti
You've persuaded me
https://twitter.com/adamdavidson/status/1495054294705393677
Is that where you get all your information from .. Twitter.
You know the names they have for people who rant and rave on twitter don't you. Cured pork is one that jumps to mind 😉
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/just-when-you-wanted-one/
I'll be honest I don't buy in to the whole 'Russia has a point because NATO is encroaching on their land' thing. These are sovereign countries deciding, by consensus, that they want to join. And they want to join because they want protection from Russia, which a scary basket case of a country. Ukraine is not part of Russia, this is not Russia regaining land taken from it, this is a big country invading a smaller country because it suits them and no-one is prepared to stop them. The fact is that if Ukraine had joined NATO then Russia would not be about to invade and an awful lot of lives will have been saved, and this (last time I checked) is a good thing.
this is a big country invading a smaller country
Ukraine is a pretty damn big country… but one which elected to disarm itself of its nuclear capability. It now needs help if it’s to resist being further occupied, piece by piece.
so that's Xi's shindig over, 5 am kick off ? Wonder if the western powers would go for a "no fly zone" over Ukraine ?
Ukraine is a pretty damn big country
Geographically. But not in terms of population, economy, military might, global influence, etc, etc.
Chechnya is a small country and that didn't go well for Russia...
Big in terms of importance though
The pipelines connecting the Siberian oil and gas fields with Europe are a major economic asset for Ukraine, as their importance to Russia gives Ukraine leverage in negotiations over oil and gas imports.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/Resources-and-power
I’ll be honest I don’t buy in to the whole ‘Russia has a point because NATO is encroaching on their land’ thing.
I think it's more that there is that perception in Russia, whether justified or not.
You have to bear in mind Russia has a totally different perspective on world history/politics than we do. According to my friend who lived out there for a while and had a Russian wife, over there what we call WWII is called the Great Patriotic War and was basically between Russia and Germany as far as they are concerned. Sort of understandable to a degree when they lost 18 million 26 million people or whatever it was.
There is a deep cultural memory/fear of being invaded through Eastern Europe. That doesn't make what they are doing acceptable, but it probably does help explain it to a degree. That and the fact Putin is a nasty nationalistic scumbag who loves money and power.
I guess it's time to go for war. Germany will probably let Ukraine go as they need the Russian gas supply.
I think half of Ukraine just along the river will be annexed.
Well energy bill is going to sky rocket soon if gas supply is cut off from Russia. No more "green" energy when people have to start using other fuel to generate electricity. Coal anyone?
That and the fact Putin is a nasty nationalistic scumbag.
Yes, but what can others do about it? Talk him to death? Same goes to CCP (China).
Russia “does not have the demographics for war”.
I will wait for few weeks to see if that happens.
With the greatest respect, I'd rather not interact with you.
Germany will probably let Ukraine go
Is meaningless comment as Germany has no influence; Nord Stream2 isn't operational yet and may stay that way.
NATO doesn't have the intention of putting 'boots on the ground' in any meaningful way; noises off, supply of military hardware/tech services and threats of sanctions are the limit of what countries other than Ukraine will do.
I doubt Putin is bothered about any of this nor will he be concerned about loss of Russian lives as they will be presented as deaths in defence of the mother country.
While the west has been talking about sanctions it's likely that Putin and his favoured oligarchs have been moving their assets out of reach.
Just to add - unconfirmed report in US media that Russian generals have received their invasion instructions.
Blinken: "Russia on brink of invading Ukraine"
Blinken makes the point that sanctions should only be triggered in event of an invasion, not to preempt an invasion.
Interesting take on Putin and the crisis as a whole.
I really don't think a further invasion will happen, the West will face and give in to se limited demands.
I very much doubt it - NATO has already agreed to keep Georgia and Ukraine out of the club in accordance with Russian demands, this is about much more than Ukrainian sovereignty. Russia wants to use this opportunity to redraw eastern Europe.
If NATO and it's allies fail to deter Russia, then we risk other countries being empowered to take someone else's territory knowing that precedent has been set.
That's interesting about Russian demographics and the higher Covid death rate
With the greatest respect, I’d rather not interact with you.
I am Not trying to interact with you as you did not write the article nor made any comments about the article.
My comment was for the article Not you.
NATO doesn’t have the intention of putting ‘boots on the ground’ in any meaningful way; noises off, supply of military hardware/tech services and threats of sanctions are the limit of what countries other than Ukraine will do.
I think most people can guess that. That is why I said Ukraine will be "let go". With silly Biden around it will only be hot air.
The only way for Ukraine to get out of this without war is to relinquish half of Ukraine to Russia just after the river. That will give Russia the buffer zone they need.
I am Not trying to interact with you as you did not write the article nor made any comments about the article.
As before, thirteen years of my forum experience has demonstrated that any interaction with you is completely futile and a waste of time. I respectfully ask that you do not interact with me in this thread.
Bye.
Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them
That’s interesting about Russian demographics and the higher Covid death rate
Indeed. Perhaps one of Putin's goals is to create the conditions for a refugee crisis in Central/Western Europe.
Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them
They are repeating them on both sides. Russia wants their buffer zone and see NATO creeping up to their doorstep.
Russia is not exactly expanding their territory but when more of their alliance start to switch side they are not going to sit there to let it happened. They see "their territory" (influence) shrinking.
In current situation Ukraine is not going to remain intact territory wise. Russia is too close.
CCP on the other hand is expanding their territory by their strong arm to claim all the islands in South China Sea.
Ukraine is still years away from fulfilling the requirements to join NATO.
Putin wants Ukraine to remove from their constitution the stated objective of joining NATO.
I think Putin is looking to his legacy and place in Russia's history; the man who restored Russia's place in the world and restored national pride.
It's complete bollocks but he has master-minded mis/dis information and cyber warfare on a global scale and convinced much of the Russia populace of a massively distorted reality.
Ukraine is still years away from fulfilling the requirements to join NATO.
Yes, a long way to go and a rather complicated ones as well. Russia will make sure that does not happen nor even let them think about the idea.
I think Putin is looking to his legacy and place in Russia’s history; the man who restored Russia’s place in the world and restored national pride
He has to otherwise they are just going to look weak.
...but he has master-minded mis/dis information and cyber warfare on a global scale and convinced much of the Russia populace of a massively distorted reality.
That's not a new phenomenon for Russian and former Soviet citizens, who by and large knew that their daily reality was distorted and that Soviet society was failing. Moreover, around one million Soviet conscripts were deployed in Afghanistan between 1979-1989 and this in turn sparked anti-war protests in Ukraine during the 1980s and arguably fueled the successionist movements in the Baltic states. The potential invasion and occupation of Ukraine could be fraught with unforeseen consequences for Putin.
It's also worth remembering that Russia hasn't had a functioning democracy as we'd know it, but various forms of autocracy have been the norm since the days of the Tsars.
My daughter asked me last night "What do Russia want?" and I didn't actually have a sensible answer. AIUI Putin doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. Ukraine would like to join NATO. NATO don't particularly want members who are likely to be invaded so don't want Ukraine. So other than an ego trip for Putin what's in it for Russia?
So other than an ego trip for Putin what’s in it for Russia?
Domestic support, and empire building in the soft sense, I think.
Looks like there's a potential summit on the cards now between Biden and Putin.
Fingers crossed.