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Conversations I've had have been along the lines of "millionaires will just leave the country" (which to be fair they are, but that argument can be levelled at most taxes paid by the wealthy). I have had no chat, read no post, no article, nothing, zilch welcoming the changes. And that goes for left leaning media and individuals, not just the usual right leaning ones. People have not got behind the attempts to raise taxes on wealthy individuals and business at all... instead they are blaming all the countries economic ills on them... despite the economic problems already being present before the tax rises, and before the election.
Here you go, front page of the guardian today, and its not even a website I regularly visit,
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/23/tax-the-rich-extreme-wealth-dale-vince
Maybe try a bit harder making excuses and blaming everyone else for what you are arguing against.
but I don’t see any signs that they will be welcomed by the public if they do…
And yet Labour were voted into power after proposing tax rises on non-doms, private schools, energy companies etc, and also a commitment not to raise taxes on working people. And then labour went back on their promise not to raise taxes on workers and at the same time said they still couldn't afford to improve services despite that tax rise. The takeaway for the voters is that labour aren't willing to raise taxes on the rich, but are willing to raise taxes on workers, and the result of that is they still can't afford to materially improve public services. If you had any doubt about Labour's incompetence and confusion on this issue look at recent messaging:
- We can't afford to build new hospitals
- We need to water down tax rises on non-doms because they have 'concerns'
Is it any wonder the voters don't trust labour on tax and improving public services?
and ultimately the government gets all its power from the voters.
Who by a clear majority back higher taxes on the wealthiest
Majority back higher taxes on wealthiest – new research
https://taxjustice.uk/blog/majority-back-higher-taxes-on-wealthiest-new-research/
A majority (64%) of people in the UK would be more likely to vote for a political party at an election if it was committed to higher taxes on the wealthiest to invest in the NHS and public services.
I think the problem is that Sir Keir Starmer is very willing to consider unpopular and "difficult decisions" but considerably less willing about making popular and easy decisions.
I don't think that you need to be a genius to figure out why that might be.
Let’s be honest, the people vocally supporting the first tax rises on the rich are few and far between. Minor tax rises on wealthy individuals and companies has gone down like a bag of sick
Not only is that not true of the wider public it isn't even of the very wealthy themselves :
Nearly three quarters of millionaires polled in G20 countries support higher taxes on wealth, over half think extreme wealth is a “threat to democracy”
It is just a minority of voters, a minority of very wealthy people, the Tories, and the leader of the Labour Party Keir Starmer, who don't like the Idea of taxing the wealthy more to pay for better public services.
"Bring in taxes" ... taxes come in ... "No, not those taxes because..."
- Employers say they'll pass on the cost of taxes to workers
- The economy is going to shit, must be because of those taxes
Supporting hypothetical tax rises doesn't always carry through to support for actual real tax rises.
Personally, I think the government need to ignore the noise, and press on... increase spending now... increase taxes on wealth in future.
Because both are needed together... when the government put money into the system without raising taxes on the wealthy, they get wealthier and the divide between rich and poor increases, both in terms of money and quality of life.
“Bring in taxes” … taxes come in … “No, not those taxes because…”
Sorry to interrupt the argument that you appear to be having with yourself but all the research and opinion polls are very clear concerning which taxes we are talking about.
The two links which I provided makes that very obvious.
Personally, I think the government need to ignore the noise, and press on… increase spending now… increase taxes on wealth in future.
Agreed.
But this is wishful thinking currently.
Government doesn't understand what taxes do or why they should tax wealth.
All government's are terrified of taxation whereas if they got there economy growing as per their needs by spending - then tax can come later to stem inflation and sort redistribution.
I think this drive to 2% inflation is now of little use. This arbitrary number is causing everything else to fail.
Post-pandemic letting CPI settle to around 3% was fine. Doggedly aiming for 2 whatever the cost of daft. But central banks are hanging on as long as possible.
(The NI tax rise however is ridiculous and will cause chaos that is not needed.)
Agree on a lot of that. I think there are people in the government (and their officials) that understand the effect of taxation far better than you or me though. On the inflation target, I think 2-3% as a target is exactly what is happening in the UK, rather than 2% or lower, even if not declared. How that changes if Trump really does push or 0% in the USA I don't know... hopefully that's just empty nonsense, but who the hell really knows.
Agree on a lot of that. I think there are people in the government (and their officials) that understand the effect of taxation far better than you or me though.
Their recent plan to make military (non-operational) death in service benefits liable for inheritance tax would say otherwise.
Am I right to assume this effects the richest families negatively, and existing inheritance tax thresholds will still protect those service families who aren’t rich from paying any IT at all?
My mum is still gets a (small) pension from my dad’s service pre AFPS 75 (medical discharge), before you get any ideas that I’m against the state looking after the family members of those who serve, by the way. I’m not.
Labour MPs ordered to sink landmark climate and environment bill
^^^that's a private members bill from a lib dem. The govt usually opposes them. Most aren't debated and about one in two hundred become law, so not terribly meaningful .
so not terribly meaningful
Someone should perhaps tell Keir Starmer, he doesn't seem to know that. Apparently he is so worried that there is talk about a three line whip and disciplinary action against Labour MPs who supports it.
Most aren’t debated and about one in two hundred become law,
From the link which I assume you didn't read much beyond the headline :
Savage, the South Cotswolds MP who is also an environmental activist and a former ocean rower, came third in September’s ballot for private member’s bills, meaning she would almost certainly get enough parliamentary time for it to pass with Labour support.
Another poll out today places Labour in third place behind both the Tories and Reform, only this one is different in that it gives Reform a clear lead, not just tied with the Tories.
Voting intention: 22nd Jan 2025
https://findoutnow.co.uk/blog/voting-intention-22nd-january-2025/
What I find interesting is that in June 2016, when we were still potentially 4 years away from a general election, the Centrists were trying to stage a very public coup against the then Labour leader on the pretext that opinion polls were showing very little support for Labour.
In fact in June 2016 all the opinion polls were showing Labour support in the low 30s, about 2-5% behind the Tories.
Today we are 4.5 years from a general election and Labour are about 25% behind the combined Tory-Reform vote. And yet despite that the silence from the Centrists is deafening.
I think we can safely conclude that Centrists aren't really concerned about how Labour preforms in the polls, their true concerns are exactly the same as the Tories - to do everything possible to stop a left-wing government implementing left-wing policies.
They probably even consider the prospect of Nigel Farage becoming Prime Minister to be more desirable than that. They are certainly not treating it with the same urgency.
I see Reeves has said “the country” needs some Trump positivity. I think she means that she needs more positivity but the real question is of all the positive people you could mirror why would you pick Trump as the example…
I don't think you can read anything about what centrists think from posting on here, I suspect many are just not interested in responding to the goading from a few posters and have taken debate elsewhere.
The goading is mainly coming from the centrists.
The tough decision further rigging the economy for the rich against the poor, the ass kissing fascism, the inability to call out genocide as ""living in the real world", the blaming the left for for the rise of the far right.
Your own comment above, nothing about policy, the events of the world we have seen over the past days or week, just a divisive comment that you blame on every one else.
A majority (64%) of people in the UK would be more likely to vote for a political party at an election if it was committed to higher taxes on the wealthiest to invest in the NHS and public services
That’s actually a very stark and worrying statistic if true.
64% of people want improvements but are not willing to to pay for it
Taxation should be fair across all spectrums of the population. Currently Labour are making the very poorest and the middle rich pay for it it would appear. Definitely appears that trying to get votes wins against trying to do the right thing.
And what is the centrist political ideology anyway, at best it seams the argument is that they will slow down the flood of money to the oligarchs, slow down the erosion of living standards, slow down the drift towards fascism, absolutely no offer of actually fixing the problems the status quo has created just the continuation of slow failure.
I don’t think you can read anything about what centrists think from posting on here, I suspect many are just not interested in responding to the goading from a few posters and have taken debate elsewhere.
I am talking about the behaviour of Centrist MPs today v the behaviour of Centrist MPs in 2016. Why would I expect any of them to respond to my comment on this thread?
Are you outing yourself as a Centrist MP Jon? 🙂
64% of people want improvements but are not willing to to pay for it
You have that arse about tit, that 64% realise they are paying the costs of the current system that only a few are benefitting from and that needs redressing in the economic model we are living under. The current economic model isn't having a neutral impact on peoples lives, assets have been inflating far faster than wage growth for 50 years, productivity has been rising faster than wage growth for 50 years, the numbers forced into the economic "underclass" has been rising for 50 years, the cost is high and is affecting each generation worse and worse.
64% of people want improvements but are not willing to to pay for it
People pay for nothing via taxation in this system. 90% of the current problems are attributed to this thinking.
And yes there is no appetite for taxation. So the solution is for the government to run that deficit first and make changes necessary or forever go downwards.
Come March Reeves will be again looking for more ways of trimming the budget on probably the vulnerable and removing more money from the economy.
You can't make it up.
Agreed, I'd be happy to pay more tax if I thought for a second I'd be getting any value at all out of it... as it stands, I pay tax and it goes into some parralel universe where public services actually work.
Centrism is getting many things back to front and supporting the institutions like the BoE to carry on paying interest to those with money.
The BoE paying interest is technically the same a running a deficit from a cash injection point of view. Only instead of paying to fix stuff for society you are giving money to those with wealth.
I don't think Centrist 'policy' exists. It's simple acceptance of Neoliberal 'policy' that things can be done better under the system we have rather than understanding the system we have is the problem.
This is why Reeves' is in a mess - she's saddled by her own restrictions due to misunderstanding of the economy. Being fiscally more prudent is actually less responsible when it comes to helping the vulnerable.
Prudent would be running that deficit, and telling the BoE and the 'markets' exactly what you're going to do and instructing them to get in line.
What's worse about our current situation is that as we go further down it will require more and more radical support to make it all happen.
Centrists incorrectly called this ideological purity back in 2017 - but the system Labour operate now is ideologically pure in that it can't escape it's walls of constraint it has put in place with the economy.
It's so so dumb.
Back to front.
64% of people want improvements but are not willing to to pay for it
it’s absolutely shocking that only 64% of people want improvement even when paid for by other people.
what do to other 36% want then? Even shittier services so long as the rich get richer?
The past 8 years in the US is a perfect example of how the system works.
Trump brought in tax cuts (95% that was focussed on benefiting the rich), then Biden came to power and created a small stimulus package, but with the privatisation of government services and not reversing those tax cuts the biggest benefactor of that stimulus was the rich rather than the those government services.
So we see government services limp along, assets inflate way faster than wages, living standards are eroded, economic inequality rises, false solutions and lies are the only alternative that is offered and the people who are suffering are just disillusioned and don't vote.
It is laid bare for everyone to see.
Oh do bore off, rone...or at least start a thread called 'everyone I don't like is a centrist'.
Oh do bore off, rone
I know that STW is Centrist Grand Central but how about not exposing yourself as being intellectually bankrupt with petty insults and instead come up with some sort of vaguely coherent counterargument to the points which rone makes.
Here's a good one, if it's not too challenging for you :
"I don’t think Centrist ‘policy’ exists. It’s simple acceptance of Neoliberal ‘policy’ that things can be done better under the system we have rather than understanding the system we have is the problem."
It seems a perfectly reasonable comment to me and if don't agree with it how about explaining why you think Centrist policy is any different to classic neoliberalism and why you believe there is nothing inherently wrong with a system, rather than trying to bully someone into shutting up?
Oh do bore off, rone
Wow imagine a world where being bothered about stuff results in minor jibes on a forum.
Not going anywhere really. Feel free to drop all the insults you want.
Centrists do need holding to account as they told us so much good stuff about Labour's trajectory.
I see many things Centrists love being taken apart anyway. Have you seen the regulator they've just tweaked on the CMA?
Ooof. Look it up.
And the usual suspects yet again prove that they can't engage in "grown up" political debate.
Any comment about the latest opinion poll which puts Labour third behind both the Tories and Reform binners, or are opinion polls now "so 2016" and no one cares about them anymore?
It will probably all turn out alright in 4.5 years time, eh? There's absolutely nothing to worry about Keir Starmer taking Labour down to a Liz Truss level of support! 🙂
Good to see the usual suspects take this thread the same way as every other political thread on here…
Stop doing it then.
Of course one reason for labours unpopularity is Europe. Many folk I believe lent Labour their votes in the hope as many expressed on here that he would pivot towards the EU one elected. Of course is ever hardening position on Europe is a real vote loser with once again polls showing a huge shift in the population towards Europe.
I haven't looked at the polls in detail but it's clear in the shift back to the SNP in Scotland
That post above should kill this thread as none of the usual protagonists want to mention or even see thr words brexit or EU
Why should it "kill" a thread where the subject is the UK government? Presumably you were expecting a reaction and are disappointed?
When I saw your comment yesterday "of course one reason for labours unpopularity is Europe" I didn't think that it needed to be urgently tackled. Because although I don't doubt that Labour is unpopular with you due to their stance on Europe there is no evidence that is true of the wider population.
In fact there is evidence to suggest the opposite, ie, it has nothing to do with Europe. The only political party whose popularity has increased substantially since the general election is Reform UK, a strange refuge for people nostalgic for the EU. And support for the most pro-EU main party, the LibDems, has remained completely static.
I suggest looking at other reasons why Sir Keir Starmer has taken his government to Liz Truss levels of unpopularity.
None soblund as those who will not see.
Pro Europe parties are up. Brexiterr ones down. The vast majority of the population want back in ASAP
Reform is taking votes from the tories. Lib dem green snp and plaid from labour
Pro eu parties are up.
You and the other main political commentators refuse to discuss this. The obvious elephant in the room
You try and pretend brexit has nothing to do with both the disastrous economic situation or the labour parties woes
That's why I said it would kill the thread. None of you from different directions want to talk about the elephant
Reform is taking votes from the tories. Lib dem green snp and plaid from labour
Not in the recent council by-elections. It was quite a mix but biggest swing was labour to conservative. Reform got very little.
You try and pretend brexit has nothing to do with both the disastrous economic situation or the labour parties woes
It has very little to do with this thread. This is the UK government thread and the UK has left the EU and has no current plans to rejoin. That's annoying but it's how it is
None of you from different directions want to talk about the elephant
I’m always keen.
The vast majority of the population want back in ASAP
Given the choice, perhaps they would.
There are huge areas of England (and baffling Wales) where seats would fall to Reform if that choice was given.
That could also be true if Labour removed its “Red lines” (which you accurately describe as a hard Brexit position).
Economically, those “Red lines” need to go at some point. If they go before the next election, we’re in for another decade of instability and all that follows from that. So, here’s the rub… properly close ties could make things better for the UK… attempting to jump to that this decade could make them much worse.
There are huge areas of England (and baffling Wales) where seats would fall to Reform if that choice was given.
When the polls say the opposite that moving towards Europe is popular and that is without labour trying to sell the idea
So somehow in your eyes a position that the majority want and would be a huge economic boost is a vote lower
As I said. None so blind