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Then maybe it’s time to break the cycle
Good luck with that. The practice of categorising political camps dates back to the French Revolution when politics as we know it first became a thing. I would suggest that as a first step you end all class antagonism.
Your side and the other side? Really there are way more. Not every political issue is binary
I very much agree but that however isn't the case on stw political threads which are generally echo chambers. Any political disagreement is generally between the two camps which I described.
Look at this thread, any significant disagreement is mostly based on those who support the current Cabinet and those who don't consider it to be radical/left-wing enough.
Even before you have clicked on this thread when you see who the last poster was you can often pretty much predict what stance will.
Merry Christmas you Marxist bastards! 😀
I don’t think that’s a “truth” at all, I don’t think any of the regular posters on here would describe themselves as either centrist or intellectually superior to anyone
Well I haven't been wasting my time arguing about **** all so you can draw your own conclusions there. As for policy, I think I've actually just given up caring, nobody else seems to be interested in anything other than being right.
This is so funny. the political compass has moved so far to the right.
As far as I am concerned there is only one vocal lefty on here. Ernie. ( including me - ) Lots of self described lefties that are actually centre to centre right when viewed objectively.
None of our major parties are actually leftwing objectively. None believe in redistibution of wealth, state ownership or any of the other key left wing policies. There is nothing left wing about Starmers labour party.
I’m left of Starmer, but probably not by a wide margin. Not sure if I’m a centrist or that much of a regular poster but definitely intellectually superior to most of you.
Happy Christmas to you all anyway.
Chaps, have a day off, eat some food, be with your friends and family, go ride your bike, do whatever you do for Christmas, just let the politics have a day off as well.
I don't think so TJ. Sure the lefties might be a minority on stw but I am definitely not the only one. Although I grant you that I am probably the only one who binners can fairly accuse of being Marxist.
What is surprising IMO is how pretty much universally no one wants to admit to being right-wing, which for a period fooled me, to a certain degree.
I remember a time when witnessing the level of anger, bile, and hatred, directed towards the previous Tory government that I thought to myself "there are going to be a lot of extremely disappointed punters on stw when Starmer becomes PM and they discover that his government isn't massively different to the Tories".
But then in the months before the general election when Starmer increasingly made it clear that despite all the criticism Labour would govern in a fundamentally similar way, and many so passionately defended him, I realised that anti-Toryism for many has no depth. For them it is much more a game of personalities rather than politics.
Obviously like the wider public a few former strong Starmer supporters have expressed disappointment at the direction that the government has taken, but these imo are individuals who have a tendency to display a certain level of honesty anyway.
Chaps, have a day off, eat some food, be with your friends and family, go ride your bike, do whatever you do for Christmas, just let the politics have a day off as well.
Why aren't you taking your own advice?
It is Christmas morning and you have decided to click on a thread titled "UK government thread"
Have you just outed yourself as a mod? It's the only explanation I can think of.
Chaps, have a day off
I have no relatives visiting this christmas, who am I going to argue with about politics?
Last night's Father Ted Christmas special had a chat line for priests - need one similar for stw argumentalists.
Bond markets tanking. It's almost like Reeves' and Starmer's strategy of draining any remaining confidence from the economy with their constant doom and gloom messaging is having the opposite effect to what they thought. You can't boost an economy by extracting money from it.
I thought she might be in danger in the summer but looks like Reeves will be gone much sooner. She's toast.
Bond markets tanking
I'm not all that clued up about 'high finance' what impact does a tanking bond market have on the common man or women? Not a backhanded question, I honestly don't know.
Often is seems to me we (the everyday people) become really concerned about how the city is doing when it doesn't really seem to matter when it comes to jobs, job security, bills and lifestyles for us.
I’m not all that clued up about ‘high finance’ what impact does a tanking bond market have on the common man or women?
Last time this happened interest rates were raised which cost me an extra £200/month on my mortgage. It's a good point though, and as always there are winners and losers. If you have lots of savings and no debt then you're in luck. If the other way round you'll be worse off. Exporters will be happy, but business in general not overly confident in making big investment decisions which will feed through to fewer jobs and lower pay.
The solution of course is to reorganise the finacial system so that the wider economy is not exposed to the vagaries of the bond market. That won't happen though as politicians. economists and the captains of industry don't have the creativity or the courage to try something different. There is no alternative apparently.
Bond markets tanking.
All eyes on the USA and possible trade wars incoming.
You can’t boost an economy by extracting money from it.
The UK gov has increased spending by more than it's increased taxation.
Exporters will be happy
I don't think they are right now. Far from it.
FFS a poll taken two days ago puts Labour and Reform both tie on 25%, with the Tories on 20%
https://findoutnow.co.uk/blog/voting-intention-8th-jan-2025/
The threat from Reform is clearly not going to go away anytime soon. Are the centrists really going to ignore it with their blinkered "There Is No Alternative" mantra?
It is obvious that voters want radical change, not middle-of-the-road centrism. If the ruling Labour government seem prepared to accept what increasingly appears to be the growing inevitability of a Tory-Reform government, or even possibly a Reform-Tory government, it begs the question do they really care?
I suspect possibly not. What with the usual lucrative post-ministerial career, and in the case of Starmer a generous post-PM pension, why should they?
I can see them feeling the same level of remorse that Nick Clegg does for shafting the LibDems and giving the Tories a huge boost.
Another poll also out today by More in Common puts Labour and the Tories tie on 26% and Reform on 22%
It is obvious that voters want radical change, not middle-of-the-road centrism.
Been obvious since 2015 when Corbyn surprised everyone by beating the centrists to win the Labour leadership. Then he surprised everyone even more by winning 40% ov the vote and robbing the tories of their majority.
The centrists regained control of labour but the end result is their vote share tanking and the rise of Reform. They won’t be bothered by that because reform got them into power but it’s only a short term advantage and it’s clear where the direction of travel is going.
Not that Starmer and Co will care though, they’ll be long gone. They will have a lot to answer for once Farage and his oligarch mates have squeezed every last drop of hate and division out of the country.
I really think the UK and wider western world is heading towards a very dystopian future, and it will all be the result of hubristic centrist politicians who didn’t have the courage to stand up to the billionaire oligarchs and try something different to the deadend neoliberal cluster****.
Edited.
Actually 'no'.
I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. No point.
Six months ago that same electorate gave Labour one of the greatest landslide victories in UK history.
So i don't think it could be argued that Labour have not been given an opportunity
decreased productivity
Do you have any evidence that productivity has decreased?
It is obvious that voters want radical change
I don't even think it's particularly radical to ask for a somewhat left of centre govt that attempts to start to undo the damage of the past decade. It shouldn't be.
Been obvious since 2015 when Corbyn surprised everyone by beating the centrists to win the Labour leadership. Then he surprised everyone even more by winning 40% ov the vote and robbing the tories of their majority.
Remind me again how many elections Corbyn lost? It's clear the electorate are not interested in his politics writ large, despite what you personally want.
Further backed up that if the challenge to Labour is coming from the [far] right, then the electorate are very unlikely to be swayed by Labour veering left.
I accept that we / you wish it were different.
Never mind how many votes each party will get - it will take an awful lot just to get people off their sofas to vote at the next election. Trust in politicians of all sides must be at an all time low.
Self-serving bunch of hypocrites.
It’s clear the electorate are not interested in his politics writ large, despite what you personally want.
Yes they didn't like Corbyn, largely because his own MPs and most of the press were telling them that he was a racist anti-semite and extremist. But they did like the policies. Opinion after opinion poll indicates that the voting public are in favour of left of centre policies and an activist govt which redistributes wealth from the rich to the poor. The vote share in 2017 was largely a result of those policies. How Starmer would love a vote share of 40% right now, and the fact that he doesn't is almost certainly due to the fact that voters can see that he doesn't really have any policies other than being a semi-competent manager. Everyone can see that Starmer has no intention of challenging the status quo where money flows upwards and voters are routinely ignored. In 2028/29 we'll back in a 2016 situation where people will vote for anything other than the devil they know, and the result will be a Tory/Reform govt which will finish the job of turning the UK into a cut-throat rapacious economy which victimises the poor and dispossessed.
It’s clear the electorate are not interested in his politics writ large, despite what you personally want.
Is it? More of the electorate were interested in 2017 than were interested in Starmer last year. Whilst I think he was a poor leader there's pretty good evidence that a centre left manifesto was popular... whether that's still true nearly eight years later is hard to say, but no-one could reasonably argue that the government's current offer is landing well.
It's a great tragedy of C21st British politics that the one time we get a left of centre politician leading the Labour Party, he's a brittle, touchy bonehead with zero charisma and leadership skills.
A charming leader of the left would clean up in elections in this country I'm sure, we just never see them because the left always eats itself.
Why did you delete you right wing meme post earlier, and then insinuate that you are the victim?
Maybe you would like to state why you claimed working people deserved lower living standards because they are unproductive?
Why did you delete you right wing meme post earlier
Because of people like you. And it wasn't 'right wing' or a meme.
and then insinuate that you are the victim?
I didn't insinuate anything. Please point to where I claimed to be a victim.
Maybe you would like to state why you claimed working people deserved lower living standards because they are unproductive?
Seeing as I didn't state that, it would be difficult to explain 'why'...
At no point did I say anyone deserved anything. If you don't like the fact that (very) gradually declining living standards in the developed world are driving more voters towards the far right than a socialist utopia then that's your issue to deal with.
Think that's that dealt with. If you'd just ignored my ill-judged* post then none of that would have been necessary.
*That is ill-judged as in 'likely to precipitate a pile-on from the usual suspects' rather than anything else.
Because of people like you.
Ah yeah. another right wing snowflake, I are asked to provide a source for your claim. You said income was reducing and that was the fault of lower productivity, which is a clear lie and easily disapproved (I provided a link), all I asked was you to provide the evidence for your claim, then you threw a hissy fit for no reason and deleted your post.
I think it provides some context to your political beliefs.
But heyho, carry on with your own attacks on anyone to the left of Thatcher and claiming you are the victim when challenged, I am sure some more of the right wingers pretending to be centrists will like your posts to "stick it to the left".
Errr, OK dude.
I know when someone is not to be argued with.
No, I apologize that was a complete over reaction from me and I am sorry
It’s a great tragedy of C21st British politics that the one time we get a left of centre politician leading the Labour Party, he’s a brittle, touchy bonehead with zero charisma and leadership skills.
A charming leader of the left would clean up in elections in this country I’m sure, we just never see them because the left always eats itself.
I kind of agree with the sentiment if not the full wording - Boris showed that populism gets votes rather than policies, a left wing populist making it seem cool to want to spread the wealth to lift everyone would be great. If we could find one.
*That is ill-judged as in ‘likely to precipitate a pile-on from the usual suspects’ rather than anything else.
It's good that you have the courage of your convictions.
No, I apologize that was a complete over reaction from me and I am sorry
Not a problem. I'm sorry that I kept biting back too. I know that your responses were quite unlike you and I shouldn't have pushed back like I did.
"People like you" is not a phrase of which I am proud. Apologies.
If it's OK - let's just chalk this one up to experience and move on...?
Is it? More of the electorate were interested in 2017 than were interested in Starmer last year. Whilst I think he was a poor leader there’s pretty good evidence that a centre left manifesto was popular… whether that’s still true nearly eight years later is hard to say
It was particularly popular among the under 54's at the time too. Judging by the Lord Ashcroft polls, labour won by a large margin in that age group, who will by the time of the next election be the under 65's - an increasingly influential cohort.
Was Corbyn even particularly left wing? As far as I can see the most left wing economic policy in his 2017 manifesto was nationalising the water companies, which was seen as unusual and unnecessary at the time but now has mainstream appeal. Other than that it's just ordinary stuff about improving workers rights, increasing wages for lower paid workers, he was committed to delivering brexit in a sensible way, there was some tax increases but at least he was upfront about it.
Reading that manifesto now with the benefit of hindsight, it looks like exactly what the country needed at the time, certainly moreso than the charlatans we ended up with.
Nothing in Cobyns manifesto was outside of mainstream European socil democratic policied
I am sure he would have been pm if not for the constant attacks from the labour right even tho he was a poor candidate
Taken in isolation it wasn't particularly left wing, it was hardly socialism was it, but it still had to be treated as such by the people with power who don't like that sort of thing.
he was committed to delivering brexit in a sensible way
Thats certainly an ‘interesting’ interpretation of events. After going AWOL for the entire referendum campaign, he magically reappeared on the morning of the result to demand that article 50 be triggered immediately, thus stressing his lifelong Brexiteer credentials that would make Farage feel inadequate.
There was never anything remotely ‘sensible’ about Magic Grandads. relationship with Europe.
Thats certainly an ‘interesting’ interpretation of events. After going AWOL for the entire referendum campaign
Your interpretation of events are quite "interesting" too.
If Corbyn was the election liability to the degree which was endlessly and tediously claim he was then you should be very grateful indeed that he supported Brexit/did bugger all, it must have put a lot of "gammons" off voting to leave.
Just imagine how big the vote to leave would have been if Corbyn had enthusiastically supported the EU.
As it is he screwed Labour in 2019 by committing the party to a second referendum that voters very clearly did not want. Thanks to relentless pressure from his Brexit shadow minister Keir Starmer.
Jeremy Corbyn says 'overwhelming case' for staying in EU
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430606
I am sure he would have been pm if not for the constant attacks from the labour right even tho he was a poor candidate
Far more damaging attacks from the right wing press, which he didn't have the nous to deal with.
Hard for many on here to accept, but Labour's failure to get elected in recent years isn't automatically the fault of the "other" wing of the party. Consistently crying that it was does not endear you to wavering voters.
Reading that manifesto now with the benefit of hindsight, it looks like exactly what the country needed at the time, certainly moreso than the charlatans we ended up with.
Absolutely. And it didn’t need hindsight. Which is why nearly everyone discussing this on here voted Labour in 2017. Speaking for myself, it was the first time I’d voted Labour at a general election, and I can pin point the moment my vote switched… it was when that manifesto was leaked early, and contained so much that seemed so obviously needed (to me anyway).
I am sure he would have been pm if not for the constant attacks from the labour right even tho he was a poor candidate
Might have looked that way in Scotland and London, but nearly everywhere else the mistrust of, and even hatred for, Corbyn was deep seated and based on his own past and continued willingness to back Russia and Iran so publicly, and nothing to do with what any other (mostly also unpopular and untrusted) Labour politicians were saying about him.
Corbyn rightly or wrongly was seen as a left wing loon by much of the electorate, that wasn't the fault of the more moderate PLP members, Corbyn abjectly failed to address that. Up against an idiot like Johnson many more people, me included, voted for Corbyn. If he had been facing an even vaguely moderate or competant Tory government the defeat would have been a lot worse.
Far more damaging attacks from the right wing press, which he didn’t have the nous to deal with.
Which were amplified by the loons in the labour right who were happy to help out. Every ****ing attack the tories launched the right wingers helped out since they preferred a hard brexit than anything vaguely left wing.
As for nous. Lets see how the current glorious leader is handling it?
Hmmmm not well really is he? Although its good to see the right wingers have now suddenly decided that the right wing rags can be a problem.