Curious to see to what extent Starver has sold us down the river to appease the Orange Idiot.
Nailed it.
Yup, banking crisis, everyone hit, vote for Brexit as a reaction, tie the hands of UK companies and governments, most of us hit, then vote for Reform as a further reaction.
Curious to see to what extent Starver has sold us down the river to appease the Orange Idiot.
I still can't see how it can go much beyond cars for cars.
I still can't see how it can go much beyond cars for cars.
Increasing involvement of tech dickheads like palintir etc.
True. And legal changes to feed everything about us, and created by us, into USA owned AI. There's the potential for a very depressing deal if it's shaped for USA tech/data giants. Thanks for the cheery thought.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1920078940082667807
"Labour are at their lowest since 2019"
So that will be during Jeremy Corbyn's disastrous leadership and more than 4 years away from the general election then.
At what point do Labour MPs decide it is time to replace the Leader?
I guess it depends on whether the Leader is a bit of a lefty social democrat or a Tory/Farage aping right-winger, no?
2028 ?
Ouch to that poll.
And to DazH - agree with the sentiment. Many Graun columnists starting to get sweaty.
Seems a few folk are coming around the obvious idea that improving living standards might be part of the problem.
However it's obvious that Starmer/Reeves won't get it cos we're waiting for growth/taxes that's why they're so desperate to sell us down the road.
If only the had a central bank they could pull on that is in the unique position of creating the £ for the purposes of government spending/investment. If only that mechanism existed.
Ouch to that poll.
And the Greens have increased their share of the vote since the general election by 150%, all the polls show that their support has more than doubled.
I wonder what that could mean?
It had better not be our much vaunted red line on food standards.
How much of a vote loser is that really outside rural areas (about which Lab don't care as they don't vote Lab)?
It had better not be our much vaunted red line on food standards.
How much of a vote loser is that really outside rural areas (about which Lab don't care as they don't vote Lab)?
I think the safety and quality of our food and an interest in animal welfare is not a rural/urban issue
How much of a vote loser is that really outside rural areas (about which Lab don't care as they don't vote Lab)?
Do only rural people eat chicken? Food standards affect everyone - it's not about protecting farmers, it's about protecting consumers from sub-standard food.
Larry Elliott.
I wondered when that serial tosspot would get another run out in the Graun.
It's all very well now saying how the government must neuter the threat of Farage by doing x or y. The fact is, Elliott backed the single most important thing that empowered the likes of Farage. He backed setting fire to the house, now he's advising the fire brigade how to put it out.
But apart from that did you like the article?
@morecashthandash @the-muffin-man The issue might be that there's a subset of people who want cheaper food and don't care about either animal welfare (which is why they have to wash the chicken with chlorine in the first place) or quality. How big that group is, and what their voting preferences are, I don't know.
@morecashthandash @the-muffin-man The issue might be that there's a subset of people who want cheaper food and don't care about either animal welfare (which is why they have to wash the chicken with chlorine in the first place) or quality. How big that group is, and what their voting preferences are, I don't know.
A fair comment, I'm probably reflecting the views of my middle class bubble there.
Not sure it would be THE issue thst would sway votes, but would be yet another failure of this government if they backed down.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/whats-really-in-uk-trump-trade-deal-3682727
Doesn't sound particularly bad on our side if this is correct
But apart from that did you like the article?
He writes the ****ing obvious and is merely a resident cyst in Farage’s colon, talks about England yet treats it like the entirety of the UK.
Another gobshite that i’d love to slap.
Food standards and digital tax are big deals for me.
The former is obvious.. But on the front of digital tax... The amount of tax mega-corps don't pay in the UK is insane.
Companies like meta, Amazon, alphabet are prime targets to 'shake down' if the UK wants to raise some tax revenue.
The daily mash informs me that in the trade deal we can now buy guns.
@morecashthandash Aye, I think it's another straw that would persuade LD/Green-leaning voters not to vote tactically for Lab.
@mattyfez No-one likes the tech giants and taxing them harder is popular, particularly when Lab have committed to not raising taxes on Hard Working People™. Cutting taxes on them to curry favour with a US regime that is itself deeply unpopular in the UK seems… inexplicable.
The fact is, Elliott backed the single most important thing that empowered the likes of Farage.
Oh FFS when are people going to stop relating everything back to brexit? Elliot's point about brexit was that it would enable the UK to break free from the neo-liberal economics enshrined in EU law and allow the state to implement policies which would boost UK industry and investment while also enabling a more equal share of the proceeds. The problem is every UK govt since brexit hasn't done that, and has doubled down on neo-liberal austerity which has got us to where we are now. It's got very little to do with brexit* and everything to do with establishment groupthink and politicians who don't give a rats ass about anything other than staying in power by keeping the top 1% happy.
*Remember how after brexit Farage disappeared into the shadows? That was because his job was done. His resurgence is a result of successive govts failing to change the status quo post-brexit.
How big that group is, and what their voting preferences are, I don't know.
The food industry?
*Remember how after brexit Farage disappeared into the shadows? That was because his job was done. His resurgence is a result of successive govts failing to change the status quo post-brexit.
Farage was just waited for Brexit to fail to deliver, then stepped forward to put forward the same lies as you… Brexit hasn’t been done wrong, it has handicapped UK companies (boo, people trying to make a living) and UK government, whatever its colour. Lots of money to be made by Farage, and for Farage, in the mess ahead of us.
Farage was just waited for Brexit to fail to deliver, then stepped forward to put forward the same lies as you…
If the position of mainstream politicians is that nothing can be improved because of brexit, then Farage will have victory delivered on a plate. Despite all their faults, the Labour leadership seem to understand that because it would be the easiest thing in the world for a passionate opponent of brexit like Starmer to blame all his problems on leaving the EU. Where's he's going wrong though is assuming the old strategies of boosting economic growth and improving the cost of living will work in a post-EU economy. They won't, and he needs to understand that and start doing something different.
Oh FFS when are people going to stop relating everything back to brexit?
But isn't Brexit the whole reason why Nigel Farage and Reform are currently doing so well?
Hatred of asylum seekers and the seductive appeal of far-right solutions is all but nonexistent in European countries which have remained in the EU, or of course in the United States.
How else would you explain the Farage/Reform phenomenon.......by the failure of neoliberalism and its centrist backers? Give me a break!
The three reasons why Nigel Farage now looks the most likely to become UK PM after the next general election are Brexit, Brexit, and Brexit. It's so simple!
If the position of mainstream politicians is that nothing can be improved because of brexit
It isn’t. Doesn’t change the fact that the position of the UK, and people living here, has been negatively impacted by Brexit, and no one is better placed to take advantage of that then Farage. It’s a frustrating irony, but true.
Hatred of asylum seekers and the seductive appeal of far-right solutions is all but nonexistent in European countries which have remained in the EU, or of course in the United States.
Is that a strawman? Some whataboutery? Both?
Doesn’t change the fact that the position of the UK, and people living here, has been negatively impacted by Brexit, and no one is better placed to take advantage of that then Farage
Doesn't make a lot of sense seeing as Farage was the primary flag waver for brexit. If it was so damaging why would he be so popular or able to take advantage? His opponents could easily point the finger in his direction and explain why everything is so shit. And yet they don't. Weird! 🤷♂️
Mandelson looks like the miserable old guy from Up
Is that a strawman?
Well I guess it depends on whether it's not true and the far-right solutions and anti-asylum rhetoric, which we all apparently hate, has indeed had traction in EU and the United States. You decide.
And here's a clue, Nigel Farage is wrong about most things.
The optics of this are great for both leaders, and Peter Mandelson with him plumby voice is such a contrast to everyone else. The is some good soft power being wielded here, it's all we've got so it's good to see.
But apart from that did you like the article?
Some of it.
He's right to divide the last 33 years into two equal blocks. He's right that warehouse and call centre jobs were a callow compensation for highly paid, unionised jobs. He fails to mention that both those extremes were/are too extreme for the balance of society and the economy. I agree that pushing for 50% of the population to be at university is too high - in fact it has led to the withering away of vocational qualifications that used to be a fantastic middle ground.
But he is far too black and white. Class has very little to do with, say, all the knee-jerk rightwing stuff amongst the supposed working class against the stricter inheritance tax rules for farmers. This was a measure that was literally closing a loophole that allowed wealthy landowners to avoid paying their fair share. But the likes of Farage only had tell many people who probably ought to want that kind of measure that it was (spit) socialism and un-British and they were all over everywhere backing "our farmers". Why were so many of the supposed working class kicking off about wealthy individuals having a loophole closed? It still is tribal, it is just that the tribes have changed.
I find Elliott's writing far too dogmatic and entrenched to pay him much regard. He tells the right time occasionally, like a stopped clock. Personally I think he is frightened about facing the realities of his political position and who he finds himself on the same side of arguments with.
That's my opinion, anyway.
Elliot's point about brexit was that it would enable the UK to break free from the neo-liberal economics enshrined in EU law and allow the state to implement policies which would boost UK industry and investment while also enabling a more equal share of the proceeds.
Do you think Aaron Banks, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nigel Farage got his memo?
And, at what point did Larry look around him and think "these don't look like the kind of people who like giving more equal shares of anything" and "why are they banging on about immigration all the time"?
🤣
Hatred of asylum seekers and the seductive appeal of far-right solutions is all but nonexistent in European countries which have remained in the EU
Really? Isn't there far right growth across Europe?
Class has very little to do with, say, all the knee-jerk rightwing stuff amongst the supposed working class against the stricter inheritance tax rules for farmers.
That's a very niche example. If higher inheritance tax for a few farmers is the best you can come up with, then Elliot clearly has a point. The key thing I think is that the focus is now returning to economic rights and equality and away from individual rights. Individual rights are great and we (mostly) all support them, but they cost very little (the reason why many govts were so keen on promoting them) and do little to improve the lives of the majority of working people. Working people care mostly about having well paid jobs, affordable housing and utilities, a functioning health service and welfare safety net, and decent schools for their kids. Deliver those and they won't care much about things like immigration and other identity issues, and that's what politicians need to focus on.
Well, Trump got "something" from the UK Government with his hardball tariffs on cars, steel etc. In most areas the UK still hasn't got arrangements as good as we had last year though. A damage limitation deal, rather than anything better than we had before Trump. Still higher tariffs on cars when selling into the USA than we had before (10%, where it was only 2.5% before Trump IIRC). Still 10% on most other goods that used to have lower tariffs. No surprise Starmer is making so much of it. Take it with a pinch of salt though. It's better than other countries have so far... so in one way the (painful to watch) process of the UK Gov has worked... but we're still going backwards. Good to see food standards maintained as a red line, credit due there, I have little faith that would have been the case if someone else had formed a government last year.
Working people care mostly about having well paid jobs, affordable housing and utilities, a functioning health service and welfare safety net, and decent schools for their kids.
And yet so many of them say they are willing to vote Reform, and lose all that.
And yet so many of them say they are willing to vote Reform, and lose all that.
Kelvin you know as well as I that people vote to change things when the status quo isn't working, and the status quo very much isn't working at the moment. Reform may or may not change anything for the better, but people will still vote for the chance of that rather than stick with what they know isn't working.
At least Mandleson will be at ease sucking up to trumps arse, busman’s holiday for himself
That's a very niche example.
Taking the point of view that Brexit, pushed as it was by the likes of Farage and along the lines he pushed it, was likely to lead to levelling up and a fairer society is a lot more niche than that.
Larry blame-anything-but-Brexit Elliott. Rivalled only by Adrian Chiles for gutter-press-worthy-drivel articles in the Guardian. And a genius when it comes to points of view that fly in the face of what's happening - Capitalism is dead, the EU is a failure, globalisation is over, Brexit is fantastic just be patient (and it's far worse in the EU than the UK).
The EU is sclerotic and seething with voter rage at the inability of its governments to raise living standards or control immigration.
Nahh, it's mainly miserable old ****s like you, Larry. Replace two letters in that sentence and it makes a lot more sense anyhow. For 80% of miserable old ****s immigration was the key issue in September 2015 - that's what's got the UK where it is now. Really:
Elliot always has a hilarious take that flys in the face of reality
And yet so many of them say they are willing to vote Reform, and lose all that.
When the right of the Labour party fail to deliver blame the electorate when the left of the party fail - blame the leadership.
This is how it goes it appears.
Just seen badenoch's response. She really is deluded, apparently the us tariffs being triple is the fault of labour and this trade deal
Good to see food standards maintained as a red line, credit due there
I'm not sure that's actually the case. Brook Rollins, US agriculture secretary, says "all of the meats, all of the produce" are being considered for agricultural export.
Did I really just hear the UK Prime Minister say that the 80th anniversary of VE was a fitting day to celebrate the school bully not punching us in the face after nicking our lunch money?
He's making a right **** of himself in his desire to dress up a shit sandwich as something positive. A shit sandwich is still a shit sandwich, whether the bread is artisan or not.
Wtf was he meant to do. Turn round and say trump is being a dick and we don't give a toss about reducing the tariffs? Trump only responds to platitudes, it sucks that they have had to do that and I don't like starmer but still it is better than what we got shafted with
Ah yes, making a deal with a fascist, perfect way to show the world that on VE day the lessons of history will be ignored.
, US agriculture secretary, says "all of the meats, all of the produce" are being considered for agricultural export.
Seems to me they've announced the deal before the details are finalised. UK government are saying the US imports will still have to meet our standards. It can't be both.
but still it is better than what we got shafted with
Awesome so we **** our industries when they couldn't give a shit because we are tiny. Glad you have your morals, in this case I'm going with pragmatism
Seems to me they've announced the deal before the details are finalised.
As I understand it they have announced what has been agreed so far and there are further negotiations to be carried out.
Trump and the oligarchs will not stop just because Starmer rolled over to have his tummy tickled.
Giving fascists any victory is failure, and the people in the UK, EU and the ROTW will pay a heavier cost because of it.
Does anyone know the nuts and bolts of this agreement?
All I'm seeing so far is sound bites and precious little detail.
And or people who don't do twitter?
An official source would be nice.
As far as I understand it (which is very....very little) this is more a "we plan/hope/wish to do this for trade between our two nations", it needs ratifying by congress in the U.S. and our Parliament.
The way trump is declaring it as a "trade deal" is akin to doing the first mile of the West Highland Way and declaring to everyone that you've walked it..........then moving on to the next thing.........SQUIRREL 🤪
........the truth is rather more involving for the next 100 or so days till the deal is through congress.
2 deals Kier probably cant believe his luck, a deal that excludes hormone fed beef is not good for American farmers, Trump must have been incredibly desperate to fold on that, i wonder if he'll stick to it if his farmers object, the art of the repeal?
Mandelson will be chortling into his Bollinger tonight
The big test now is whether he can't forge a better deal with the EU
Yep, fascist bully's always go away if you give in to them, they never come back and demand more.
might make us feel better but going against trump would be insane economically. It’s probably the only thing Starmer got right.
2 deals Kier probably cant believe his luck, a deal that excludes hormone fed beef is not good for American farmers, Trump must have been incredibly desperate to fold on that, i wonder if he'll stick to it if his farmers object, the art of the repeal?
Mandelson will be chortling into his Bollinger tonight
The big test now is whether he can't forge a better deal with the EU
There's a lot of talk about the youth mobility scheme with the EU...
It's fundamentally ageist and possibly incompatible with equal opportunity law... But "shhh.." one step at a time! 😉
Not sure which thread this belongs in, but apparently it's not a trade deal with the US, as that would have to go through Congress.
Seems all we've got is a reduction on some tariffs and plans for more talks
Seems all we've got is a reduction on some tariffs
reductions on tariffs that would have been death blow for uk steel and car manufacturing
that Trump is so desperate hes trying to big it up as a trade deal is illuminating in itself
starmer has got quite lucky, badenochs 'shafted' response came across as rather bitter
that Trump is so desperate hes trying to big it up as a trade deal is illuminating in itself
starmer has got quite lucky, badenochs 'shafted' response came across as rather bitter
Sorry, my post wasn't clear, I think we've got a result out of it.
As you say, the fact that Trump is making a big fuss at backing down on his stupid tariffs is quite telling.
It has also backed Badenoch into a corner and undermined Farages "pals with Trump" charade.
Borh sides need a deal to show the public hence the announcement before the detail.
However politically Trump needs it more because of his absurd claims and I suspect the uk negotiators are capable of running rings round their counterparts
I think there is still a significant chance it collapses.
Borh sides need a deal to show the public hence the announcement before the detail.
However politically Trump needs it more because of his absurd claims and I suspect the uk negotiators are capable of running rings round their counterparts
I think there is still a significant chance it collapses.
I suppose if trumps breakfast Big Mac has gherkins on it when he specifically asked for no salad...
That could really throw a spanner in the negociations.
However politically Trump needs it more because of his absurd claims and I suspect the uk negotiators are capable of running rings round their counterparts
Yeah, Davis and Frost were brilliant, so good I'm sure Starmer can borrow them from the Tories. they ran rings around that counterpart Barnier. 🤠 The US doesn't need the deal more, Starmer does because of JRL which has been promised 100 000 cars.
Expect Europe to put the same tarifs on the UK as the US to prevent the UK being a back door. It's a trade war remember.
Why would Europe put tariffs on the uk as a result of this "deal"?
It doesn't make any sense
Even if the UK had the best negotiators in the world, how do you dress this one up?
US: We want unrestricted access for hormone fed beef.
UK: Blah, blah, blah, we could replace check A with check B, percentage of hormone level X moves to Y.
US: We are 8 times bigger than you. We want unrestricted access for US beef.
The stuff that is being written off as detail in this story is what used to be called a treaty. What we have so far is a vague statement of intent, suspiciously light on detail but ready for the 80th anniversary of VE Day. Like any supposed deal with a bully it will mostly be what the bully wants it to be.
And even if it isn't, and the UK negotiates a fantastic package of detail...
Trump is a big enough **** to ignore it anyway. Who is the UK going to say "but, teacher" to?
The only thing Trump takes notice of is power. The US economy is 8 times the size of the UK. If the UK was in the EU, the US economy would be about 1.5 times the size. This will play out accordingly.
It is pretty much how he arrived at his tariffs in the first place.
The US economy is 8 times the size of the UK. If the UK was in the EU, the US economy would be about 1.5 times the size.
And yet the UK has been able to negotiate and reduce tariffs while the EU hasn't. Being smaller and more agile seems to be an advantage in this case.
We want unrestricted access for hormone fed beef.
Always curious about the outrage about this and chlorinated chicken. Have you seen the shite that people in this country already eat? We're hardly paragons of healthy eating and lifestyles. We probably should put our own house in order before we start lecturing others about their food standards.
PS. Allowing US beef into the UK seems to me to be Starmer's revenge for all the nonsense about farmer's inheritance tax. He's already lost that cohort of the electorate (not that he ever had it) so not much for him to lose by not defending their interests.
Always curious about the outrage about this and chlorinated chicken.
It's largely to do with undercutting farmers who have to comply (quite rightly) with higher standards of animal welfare. It won't affect the butcher I buy my meat from but the processed food industries will be rubbing their grubby hands together.
It's largely to do with undercutting farmers who have to comply (quite rightly) with higher standards of animal welfare.
Well if the price of saving tens of thousands of jobs in the automotive and steel industries is farmers being a bit poorer then so be it. They can hardly complain about a PM they despise not being too motivated to fight their corner.
Chlorinated chicken isn't a problem, the EU's own reports underline that point. What is a problem are the poorer quality production methods that are then masked by chlorination.
Unprecedented market access for British farmers with protections on food standards maintained (my emphasis)
Hormone-produced beef is supposedly a UK red line and if we import that then we can forget about any future agreement with the EU. Neither the processed food industry nor any other will be getting it,
In a win for both nations, we have agreed new reciprocal market access on beef – with UK farmers given a quota for 13,000 metric tonnes. There will be no weakening of UK food standards on imports. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/landmark-economic-deal-with-united-states-saves-thousands-of-jobs-for-british-car-makers-and-steel-industry
UK beef import tariffs will be imposed on US beef at 13,000 tonnes, a higher level than previously, but UK farmers benefit from a raised export allowance of 13,000 tonnes
UK people could of course stop eating over processed meals containing beef and just stick to 'actual' beef form their butchers which would be good on various levels. They won't do that though will they.
UK people could of course stop eating over processed meals containing beef and just stick to 'actual' beef form their butchers which would be good on various levels. They won't do that though will they.
dont disagree but a quick google says that a supermarket beef grillsteak costs approx £10/ kg whereas a supermaket beef steak is approx £20-30 /kg
theres a reason that meat is processed, its not just a deliberate ploy to make the nation obesse
i pointed this out on the trump thread but non-hormone fed beef in the US is the rarity and is usually a lot more expensive
80-90% of US beef is hormone fed, which means its mostly organic beef that would be allowed in
that's has a hefty price premium over hormone fed, up to 67% more, not sure how that will be profitable to ship & sell here
EXTENSION.IASTATE.EDU
i can't see American beef farmers being too excited by this
UK people could of course stop eating over processed meals containing beef and just stick to 'actual' beef form their butchers which would be good on various levels.
Or they could stop eating beef altogether and spare the suffering of millions of cattle and do the environment and planet a massive favour but they won't do that either. 😉
I don't think cash strapped Britains are all of a sudden going to start eating anything other than what the supermarket sells them at cheapest possible price.
Globalisation has already done its job. And the consumer has been led down that path through no fault of their own.
In some ways Trump has literally and awkwardly shone a light on the the issue of the race to the bottom. (Not saying he did it for anything other than disruptive reasons.)
But we're already on that journey - the UK ultimately has been ridiculous since leaving the EU in not investing in its own future.
If I were Starmer I'd be looking at what we can do here on our shores with a big green investment lens.
Or they could stop eating beef altogether and spare the suffering of millions of cattle and do the environment and planet a massive favour but they won't do that either. 😉
What would you do?
KIll more than 1.5bn. cows?
Tell 8.2bn people that beef will be off the menu when we've killed every cow?
We could all travel by bicycle, but that won't happen either
Current research is genetic selection of high meat/dairy producing, low-farting cattle fed on supplements to reduce methane emissions further.
Farming is essential to maintain our soil and biodiversity, if for no other reason than farmers irrigating fields and providing water for livestock to survive
The soil condition and biodiversity in the UK peaked about 6000 years ago before man started chopping down the natural post-glacial wooodland.
Farming is essential to maintain our soil and biodiversity, if for no other reason than farmers irrigating fields and providing water for livestock to survive
Farming destroys soil & biodiversity - Farmers are not the custodians of the land, they use it for profit.
Farming is essential to maintain our soil and biodiversity
Soil degradation is one of the most pressing problems facing our planet. More than 80% of the world's farming land is 'moderately or severely eroded', with 75 billion tonnes of soil lost every year.
Over the past half-century, the intensification of agriculture has led to failure of soil structure and organisms, reducing it to little more than ‘dirt’ – a sterile medium in which little can grow without artificial fertilisers. It is a self-perpetuating cycle of destruction and chemical dependence. Without soil organisms and soil structure to retain them, water and nutrients leach away, and the soil compacts and becomes prone to erosion.
https://knepp.co.uk/rewilding/ecosystem-services/soil-restoration/