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Doubt it, sounds the same as expensive cars, hit the higher levels, but it's not really stopped sales, maybe it's just time to bring back the poll tax!
I'll pay a fair chunk more on 0.5% property value tho whatever I guess - I knew I was probably voting for a tax rise! Any clue how they'll do the valuation? Are they going to refresh it yearly or just a one off like 91?
Any clue how they’ll do the valuation?
Very good point, that's another question entirely... they could use Zoopla I guess... but that's not an independent valuation, just a broad aproximation based on previous market trends.
So if it came down to an argument as to whether a property is is worth 400k or 600k...it's pretty ambiguous.
0.5% of value would suit me, as i’d get a discount from it, but that’s not really going to work across the country with helping fund councils
It would be a significant discount for me, and I'm not entirely comfortable with that. The area I lived in has some significant deprivation, so everywhere is fairly cheap apart from a couple of pockets that I dont believe are big enough to counter the cheap areas.
It would be a significant discount for me, and I’m not entirely comfortable with that. The area I lived in has some significant deprivation, so everywhere is fairly cheap apart from a couple of pockets that I dont believe are big enough to counter the cheap areas.
True, maybe something like 0.7% would be more fair than 0.5%?
So if it came down to an argument as to whether a property is is worth 400k or 600k…it’s pretty ambiguous.
The Valuation Office Agency already values properties for council tax and business rates, and resolves disputes on both.
The problem will be it will generate a new income stream for the shady "are you paying too much tax" ambulance chasers who will take a fee for handling an appeal you can do yourself for free, whether its valid or not. Legislation had to be used to tackle them 5-6 years ago as they very nearly broke the whole system by flooding it with spurious claims, wasting millions of tax payers pounds.
apart from a couple of pockets that I dont believe are big enough to counter the cheap areas
More funds needs to come from central government. Increasingly relying on local taxes, as we have been in the last decade or so, further embeds and exacerbates inequality. The opposite of “levelling up”. Tax wealth more, wherever it is, and spend more where it is needed more.
Also suggest we improve transport links to the North of England… but that basic requirement to help rebalance our economy seems to be treated as unachievable these days, sadly.
The Valuation Office Agency already values properties for council tax and business rates, and resolves disputes on both.
It's an interesting but very flawed point.
A house, for example, is only worth as much as you can sell it for. Untill you sell it, it's pure speculation.
The problem will be it will generate a new income stream for the shady “are you paying too much tax” ambulance chasers who will take a fee for handling an appeal you can do yourself for free, whether its valid or not.
We already have that with estate agents who take a percentage of sale price rather than a fixed fee for a sale.
A house, for example, is only worth as much as you can sell it for. Untill you sell it, it’s pure speculation.
So you base the valuation on known sale prices at a certain date from the Land Registry data. Put houses into £25k bands, or £50k. Like council tax, but revalue every 3-4 years.
Keep It Simple
You might need to re-check your maths on that,
0.5% of 450000 is 2250.
The £450K example was for a done up ex council house. The average price in the area is around £800K hence the £4K.
Paying £4K a year for the shit services we get doesn't seem like good value. I would just scrap council tax all together and allocate the money from central government to each council based on number of people living in borough, number of people needing care in borough, number of children needing schools in borough and so on.
Basing it on value of house is stupid. If you want a wealth tax on housing then have that as a separate central tax.
So you base the valuation on known sale prices at a certain date from the Land Registry data. Put houses into £25k bands, or £50k. Like council tax, but revalue every 3-4 years.
Keep It Simple
Sorry I may have not made my point very well.. . nothing has value (in this monetary context) until it is sold and paid for.
Let's take a car for example...I want to sell my old fiesta for £2000. That doesn't mean it's worth £2000.
I eventualy sell it for £1550, so thats what it's worth, at that particular point in time.
Making the assumption (lol!) that the governemt is running correctly, then that would mean tax rises.
Where those tax rises are targeted is a matter of debate.
Yep, great. Why should councils have to pay social care for example when it is a national thing and pot luck on how many need it in whatever borough and worse still that impacting what councils can spend on actual council stuff.
Making the assumption (lol!) that the governemt is running correctly, then that would mean tax rises.
Oh I understood from this thread that the government could supply as much money as they want to without raising taxes.
Oh I understood from this thread that the government could supply as much money as they want to without raising taxes.
You haven't understood it correctly then as nobody has said that. And the point I am making is that instead of taxing for local services being based on however much your house is worth you get the taxes from elsewhere which would amount to the same but remove the nonsense about council budgets with money going to councils from central source based on their needs for social care as an example, i.e. 10,000 people need social care so council receives 10,000 x £n for that year.
The £4k I would have paid in council tax will come out of increased income tax or maybe some wealth tax if you really want to tax based on a persons house value. It may even help with the ridiculous property prices, who knows.
Oh I understood from this thread that the government could supply as much money as they want to without raising taxes.
Okay it can spend as much money as it wants to, but - it may need to offset some spending with taxation to control inflation.
The taxation is not used for spending.
Further to this there has to be the resources available to soak up the money.
Local government though operates like a household and spends revenue
Central government doesn't.
Christ I feel for Starmer actually on all this.
Markets plummeting this morning etc and all this racist hooligan behaviour but the biggest issue is the right wing media now jumping in to attack Starmer having taken all these years of right-wing failure which have led here.
This is where Centrism fails - it will be attacked from the craziest as not siding with the working class. Centrism gets manipulated. People are also wrapping the winter fuel allowance into the mix for the discourse on the radio.
Be interesting to see if things level or get worse, but also see how Starmer even begins to sort stuff out.
The right are totally manipulating with what the working class "is" in this situation.
There also sense that we're going to get escalation in the middle-east. I think that's what the markets don't like.
Very difficult times ahead.
Am i reading this right, are you saying ‘centrism’ is the reason for all of these riots and discontent?
No you're being ridiculous. Looking to score points too aren't you?
I'm saying centrism gets attacked from both sides. The right are saying Starmer is too authoritarian - just spend time with all the usual sources. Or listen to callers on the radio. (Starkey and Hitchens with frankly absurd takes.)
Corbyn? That sort of response is frankly pathetic.
Centrism however will not solve many of our problems I am saying that
the right wing media now jumping in to attack Starmer having taken all these years of right-wing failure which have led here.
'RIGHT-WING failure.'
Honestly Argee that was a silly take and you didn't read my post.
So instead of governing towards the centrist mass, Starmer should appease either sides extremists?
So instead of governing towards the centrist mass, Starmer should appease either sides extremists
What on earth are you talking about?
I'm criticising the critics of Starmer in this particular context.
What the hell is a centrist mass?
Lost for words on this particular set up.
I'm saying centrism is ill-equipped to govern and deal with complex issues but I also feel bad that years of discourse created by the 'right' has led to this and this feel empathy for Starmer in such a situation.
You made a statement about the failures of centrism, on a government that have been in power for a month, against discontent that has been years in the making, not just one month, do you think this wouldn't have happened exactly the same as it has if the election was November rather than July?
You've also linked the markets falling, but fail to state that the initiator for this was the Japanese market tumbling due to the fear of a recession, the UK market just opened and felt that pain instantly.
I’m saying centrism gets attacked from both sides. The right are staying Starmer is too authoritarian – just spend time with all the usual sources. Or listen to callers on the radio.
Rone, just dipping in and not trying to get argumentative or anything!
It's certainly a truism that a centrist government can be attacked from both "extremes" but that doesn't invalidate a centrist government or centrist voters surely? Centrist voters, in large part, put this government in power.
To be honest, sorry, epic what's aboutery here, but if Corbyn (someone I voted for twice) was in government today, these riots would still be happening.
If Gandhi, Jesus, Mother Teresa and Lenin were in the cabinet over the last few days it would not have changed a thing imo.
Sorry for hyperbole but just trying to emphasise the point. 🙂
You made a statement about the failures of centrism, on a government that have been in power for a month, against discontent that has been years in the making, not just one month, do you think this wouldn’t have happened exactly the same as it has if the election was November rather than July?
That's a gross misrepresentation.
I said this where Centrism fails in response to all of this. Not what they've done in a month.
I didn't link the markets in any way shape or form other than pointing out it will be part of the landscape of criticism to deal with.
I'm just pointing out that as many of the things around the world start to fall apart many of them being driven by right wing ideology - that centrism is ill-equipped to deal with it and it's bad timing for Starmer.
(Markets started to fall on poor US job hiring figures. Markets across the world are linked you know.)
Rone, just dipping in and not trying to get argumentative or anything!
Interesting that contributors now feel the need to de-escalate before posting a perfectly reasonable point.
To be honest, sorry, epic what’s aboutery here, but if Corbyn (someone I voted for twice) was in government today, these riots would still be happening
Probably - because I'm saying it's years of extreme ideology that creates these problems.
Not the current government.
But I am saying the current government will probably struggle to solve much of the discourse because there's no push back.
I'm not saying the current situation is anything to do with Starmer I'm saying going forward because Labour have adopted many Tory economic ideas - that real solutions are not kicking around.
Austerity creates problems. Etc
Interesting that contributors now feel the need to de-escalate before posting a perfectly reasonable point.
It's just a conversation or debate. None of this will affect my day.
People can say or think what they want.
I'm totally happy reading and responding to whatever is put out there.
fenderextender
Free Member
Rone, just dipping in and not trying to get argumentative or anything!Interesting that contributors now feel the need to de-escalate before posting a perfectly reasonable point.
I'n fairness, Rones never had a pop at me. I just know that tensions are high in the political threads at the moment as, to a degree, it reflects where the UK is at the moment.
I still see all you dastardly lot (whatever you are on the political soectrum) as the good guys! 🙂
We all want better! That's for sure.
rone
Full Member
We all want better! That’s for sure.
Absolutely, 100%.
We might disagree about how to get there but "better" is what we all want.
Probably – because I’m saying it’s years of extreme ideology that creates these problems
I don't think that anything that any 'centrist' govt however described, can counter the effects of the propaganda that folks have been subject to for years now, and TBH I don't think they should try. The folks that are soaked in this stuff only believe/listen to the opinions they want to hear, and most of it is just horse shit that isn't based in reality anyway. The propaganda has no real aims based in normality or resolving real issues, , beyond other than to label political ideas that the far-right disagree with as "the work of your enemies" Its convenient currently to use immigration and refugees, if they weren't there, it'd be something else. I don't think that centrist govt are 'failing' at their attempts to resolve this issue, because if they enacted policies that are likely sensible or sustainable, however you tried to then explain that; the mob would merely be directed to something else.
Its a category error, you can't counter this sort of confected or spasmodic hatred with sensible or directed policies. It doesn't work.
Do you think this guy really wanted and needed Corbyn and a more socialist UK?
And the winner of the gold medal for strawman of the year goes to...
Argee I can see you're looking for a big argument, can I suggest in these polarised times of high tension that you climb down from your parapet and exercise some common sense? I could give a sensible response to your Corbyn hand grenade if you want but I'm not sure I can be arsed as it'll just escalate into more anti-lefty nonsense, probably culminating in funny Monty Python picture.
I don’t think that centrist govt are ‘failing’ at their attempts to resolve this issue, because if they enacted policies that are likely sensible or sustainable, however you tried to then explain that; the mob would merely be directed to something else.
Well there might be less of a reason to be in that particular mob?
My main counter to all of this is austerity creates all sorts of deep rooted problems.
That's not to say this current situation is currently is directly linked to austerity but I absolutely don't believe more of the same economic choices will lead to a better society.
Rotherham is just up the road from me - and the decline of the place has been staggering; economically.
Yes there will always be the mob causing havoc for all sorts of incoherent reasons.
Reasonable working class people who might not be on the riot spectrum from areas like mine get pulled into the mob because they feel the decline of successive governments.
Labour have tried to ride tightrope appeasing the boundaries of this culture with their flags and lack of EU enthusiasm - well that's not going to work either with the looks of things.
Brexit wasn't enough. It will never be enough.
well that’s not going to work either with the looks of things.
Yeah, I agree completely it won't work. I agree that improving the economic outlook for disadvantaged and left behind areas is a priority for any govt and recently (last couple of decades) govts of both stripes have failed in this area.
I agree that improving the economic outlook for disadvantaged and left behind areas is a priority for any govt
This is why I keep banging on about the austerity narrative. All the messaging coming from govt (both labout and tory) is about not being able to spend money, about not having any money, and about not being able to 'raise' money. Labour have inherited a shitshow no doubt, but the tone of their response is all wrong and is targeted at the wrong people - mostly the middle and 'affluent' working class. The result is that in places like Rotheram et al people have no hope that anything is going to get any better so they turn to extremists and need very little encouragement to take to the streets.
It'll get worse too, because in places where there are riots, people will see the lack of an effective response from the police and start organising to defend themselves like they did in Bolton. When that happens we then have the spectre of full-on race riots and estates/communities going to war with each other.
All above for sure.
What worries me is the fringe of all this. People I know - teachers, builders, shop staff etc moderates - all getting drawn into the bile of the racists.
They don't punch up.
It starts with one comment about a polish person killing a swan or nicking a job. Then they link migrants with ruining the economy or NHS instead of looking at the real reasons we're in the mess we're in. (I've heard all these things from people that should know better.)
Unless we fix certain things those people will not link the correct issues.
It's Brexit fuel on steroids. The next level.
It's not really controversial to say that those places that have been involved in all this are pretty deprived. It's never going to help with that backdrop.
On a completely different level these things to seem to kick off when it's summer and hot. Always a bit of a fuse.
And the winner of the gold medal for strawman of the year goes to…
Argee I can see you’re looking for a big argument.....
Okey dokey, i shall just agree with you guys, since this centrist, or centre right labour party has come into power, the country has fallen apart, we have riots on the street because of centrism, and the financial markets are falling due to centrist policies, not the Japanese concern that they may enter a recession.
I shall also not use Saint Jeremy's name in vain again, the best prime minister we never had.
since this centrist, or centre right labour party has come into power, the country has fallen apart, we have riots on the street because of centrism, and the financial markets are falling due to centrist policies, not the Japanese concern that they may enter a recession.
No one has said any of this.
Consider this though on the riots. Had Corbyn won in 2019 we would have seen a much more humanist and compassionate approach towards immigration and asylum rather than the 'it's a necessary evil' narrative we get from everyone else. He would have taken on the racists directly rather than ceding ground to them and would have made the positive case for the contribution immigrants make to this country. Whether that would have prevented all this is debatable, but I reckon it would have at least marginalised Farage and others on the extreme tory right. You'd also have seen a much more engaged and energetic approach to reducing deprivation and social decay in many of these areas which would have starved the EDL of supporters.
Totally agree, but apart from that we all know Corbyn was awful don't we. It is about what is coming out of government and the last 5 years have not been great have they. As you say difficult to prove but having a vocal anti racist and more compassionate person as head would have a better chance than having Johnson, Truss and Sunak.
Had Corbyn won in 2019
Oh goody, in the absence of any actual arguments we're left with misty eyed counter-factualism. That's the blitz spirit right there. Honestly if I was Revves and was being asked why money isn't being spent in Rotherham (poor old Rotherham, I wonder why it's being picked on, its really rather nice) I'd be telling them "You know when you voted in 2016 to leave? Well, it wasn't consequence free."
Consider this though on the riots. Had Corbyn won in 2019 we would have seen a much more humanist and compassionate approach towards immigration and asylum rather than the ‘it’s a necessary evil’ narrative we get from everyone else. He would have taken on the racists directly rather than ceding ground to them and would have made the positive case for the contribution immigrants make to this country. Whether that would have prevented all this is debatable, but I reckon it would have at least marginalised Farage and others on the extreme tory right. You’d also have seen a much more engaged and energetic approach to reducing deprivation and social decay in many of these areas which would have starved the EDL of supporters.
The first half of that paragraph contradicts the second, how exactly would Corbyn being nicer to immigrants and asylum seekers have caused the likes of Farage to be marginalised, are we forgetting that the right wingers we have seen in the news lately exist, and there are more like that around the country, there's millions of them, and it's been a powderkeg for decades, waiting for an excuse, unless Corbyn had some greater plan to remove them, i'm not sure how it would all be rosier now if he'd got in at the 2019 election.
how exactly would Corbyn being nicer to immigrants and asylum seekers have caused the likes of Farage to be marginalised
When the govt demonises immigrants the electorate see it as a bad thing and this cedes ground to the extremists and provides fuel for their hate. That's what has happened over the last 5 years with the tories in power. Farage will always have the support of racists and bigots, but the stuff that's happening now is propped up by a general acceptance in the population that immigration and the expansion of muslim communities is a problem. If we fail to make the positive case for immigration and acknowledge the benefits of it then we allow the bigots to drive the wider narrative and public perception.