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No doubt the cross over between people who don't want ID cards and don't want migrants is pretty large.
Exactly "illegal workers" is just double speak for immigrants, it is just more racism from Starmer with a veneer of deniability for the chattering classes. Another dead cat for his right wing economic failures.
Petition against digital ID rapidly approaching 250k signatures, not that these things are anything but the illusion of democracy in action.
Well there are around 50 million people in the UK over 18 soooooo....0.5% don't want it so far. Not that I'm massively for it mind you but sometimes when people quote these petitions as being useless (which they mainly are) this is generally because.
0.5% don't want it so far.
No, you appear to be referring to how many people have signed a petition, not how many people don't want it.
It is self-evident that 99.5% support for the proposal is unlikely.
I very rarely sign petitions but it doesn't mean that I am generally quite happy with what the government is doing.
It does seem to be popular though, in sharp contrast to when Tony Blair attempted to introduce it. Blair has obviously given it some thought and the "you'll be able to report potholes and missed bin collection" stunt appears to have possibly paid off.
No, you appear to be referring to how many people have signed a petition, not how many people don't want it.
That was kind of my point! This is why I said these petitions are mainly useless. I added in the mainly because they do trigger a commons discussion at 100,000. However in this instance that’s pointless as obviously there will be plenty of parliamentary discussion on this subject anyway.
Yes I agree that petitions of this sort are mostly pointless, which is why I rarely sign any. But the level of support they attract is a reflection of the wider public feeling.
A petition with huge public support is likely to attract the attention of government politicians, whatever they may claim.
Governments with massive majorities literally quake in fear when faced with an internet petition. It’ll be panic stations in number ten right now.
If you’ve not signed it already then you’ll be ostracised in the common room
Again a million and one other things they could fix and it won't stop sweet FA.
Quick my energy and water bill has gone through the roof - then the solution must be digital ID cards!
Starmer is walking disaster.
Like everything else, whether it's a good idea or not is going to depend largely on how it's implemented (the Digital ID, not compulsory physical ID cards, compulsory physical ID cards are always going to be a terrible idea).
Norway and several other countries have a 'P-number' which you get at birth and then is used for pretty much everything vaguely official. It's worth bearing in mind Norway is a country of 6 million, not 60 million.
As a foreigner, once you've got your p-number everything is fairly straight forward and you quickly forget all the hassle you had when you didn't have one. For example, you can't open a bank account without a P-number. Landlords (who often don't like renting to foreigners anyway) won't take tenants without a P-number, etc.
When I first moved to Norway I was quite lucky because work provided me with accommodation for the first month and someone from the employment agency took me to my appointments at the police station to get the paperwork sorted. For those who are left to sort themselves out it can be a nightmare.
So, like I said, it can be OK if it's implemented well. Good luck with that.
my watch probably has more data on me than the government does
im struggling to see a problem with this other than Bruce's point about implementing it well.
So it’s effectively a digital National Insurance card?
In a world where Tesco are holding more information on me than the government, it’s not even registering on my give-a-shit-ometer
Also: Farage is opposed to it, along with the usual tinfoil helmet brigade saying this makes us into North Korea or some other paranoid guff
I think the devil is in the detail.
You have about 3.5 million people without a phone. The records of the NHS, tax , pensions etc will all need linking.
Given successive governments wonderful record with big IT projects, there might be a few glitches.
Given that it has taken lots of phone calls and emails to sort out my electoral status after the local electoral services unit made an extra version of me. I remain to be convinced.
The other concern is for people like the Windrush people who have been here for years and who might get caught in the anti immigration fervour.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but my biggest concern with digital ID is how much cross-linking of data there is between phone apps. They all feed data from one another.
How long before Facebook, Insta, X and your health apps require permission to access your digital ID (hidden in T&Cs that we all click accept) cross pollinating personal data.
You have about 3.5 million people without a phone.
I can’t imagine many, if any of those are working age.
They might not be but it’s foolish not to recognise that use of this ID is going to proliferate.
Would you be happy for a Farage led government to be able to erase you from the digital record.
We are already seeing Starmer happily handing data to the AI tech bros, legislation reducing our rights to our own data at the time when we need more legislative protection.
I have always been a fan of big data being used for epidemiological studies to improve health and life, but the people the keys to the kingdom are being handed to are not interested in our health and happiness, they are interested in squeezing the life out of us for their gain not ours. In the past I ticked the box saying they can use my data whenever it appears on health forms, over the past 12 months I have stopped because of how I see data being treated and the likelihood that it will be used against me and the increasing lack of legislative protection.
Perhaps the likely collapse of the AI bubble will actually come to the rescue before the gormless clowns in government, but if we look at the dominance of the likes of amazon, facebook and google that emerged after the .com bubble, and how they use data and market dominance to control and manipulate society and politics, I would prefer legal protection rather than "hopes and prayers"
Would you be happy for a Farage led government to be able to erase you from the digital record.
How or why do you think anyone is going to ‘erase me from the digital world’?
if you don't think every form you fill in online isn't in some way already using your data you're woefully naive. At least with the card they're transparent about it.
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Also this is Labour were talking about will this ever see the light of day? Like all their fraudulent incoherent promises they're so far in the future as to be irrelevant.
They can't deliver a supermarket trolly back to the car park never mind run a country.
The conference will be written by Jesse Armstrong I'm sure.
Also this is Labour were talking about will this ever see the light of day? Like all their being promised they're so far in the future as to be irrelevant.
They can't deliver a supermarket trolly back to the car park never mind run a country.
Owen Jones is presently on the radio making out that this is Minority Report 🙄
So we’re being asked to simultaneously believe that the government
a) couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery
b) is the dark sinister hand, ruthlessly manipulating every aspect of our lives
Mkay…
How long before unscrupulous people figure out how to harvest your government ID from third party sites (see latest npm attacks for examples) and you wake up and find your pension is now being sent to a bank account in Russia, and you can't do anything about it because they changed the "security" questions?
Farage is opposed to it, along with the usual tinfoil helmet brigade saying this makes us into North Korea or some other paranoid guff
Ah, the politics of the sixth form common room......if people I don't like take a position then it must be wrong and I will oppose it. It makes life so much simpler and easy to understand !
Are the Liberal Democrats part of this "tinfoil helmet brigade"?
@oldandpasit Given that describes most modern banking, and that happens rarely, I'm going to say it's unlikely.
You have to prove that you have the right to work in the UK already to get a job. For most folks that's your passport or some other residency permit, and that goes un-remarked by 99% of people. But replace the word passport with ID card and some folks lose their minds
Farage is opposed to it, along with the usual tinfoil helmet brigade saying this makes us into North Korea or some other paranoid guff
Lmfao. You can bet if the Tories or Reform were doing this you'd be calling it Taliban-esq or something.
Who would even begin to trust Labour and Starmer with such a project - the lying mendacious charlatans. These are the same people that think private finance in the shape of Blackrock is going to save the UK.
Are the Liberal Democrats part of this "tinfoil helmet brigade"?
Aha the good old test of Liberal values versus Labour party zealotry.
"We are Centrists we shape our ideas based on whatever Starmer believes on a Friday."
When are you Libs gonna get it - Starmer is destroying everything you believed in and here they are lining up to justify another absolute Reform inducing win.
I haven't got a problem with ID cards but I do have a problem with Digital ID cards due to Cybersecurity risk. I can see a time in next 10 years or so when a lot of things go back to paper based as stopping cyber criminal activity (especially when state actors will have quantum computing available) will take more time/effort and importantly cost meaning any profits are gone on protecting digital systems. Yes it will be like going back in time to less efficient days but it will happen.
You have to prove that you have the right to work in the UK already to get a job. For most folks that's your passport or some other residency permit, and that goes un-remarked by 99% of people. But replace the word passport with ID card and some folks lose their minds
Which makes you wonder how introducing Digital IDs is going to 'Stop the Boats' as Starmer has claimed. How are Digital IDs going to do what the current requirements can't?
As usual, Starmer has framed this argument so poorly people are left scratching their heads and wondering what the real play is. And assuming the real play is not going to be something that benefits them.
There is definitely a conversation to be had about Digital IDs but the way Starmer has decided to kick it off means people are quite rightly asking questions about what the government is trying to achieve with all this.
The petition against the BritCard up nearly 100K signatures since I signed it this morning:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/730194
Note, I have no political leanings and distrust them all equally.
Which makes you wonder how introducing Digital IDs is going to 'Stop the Boats' as Starmer has claimed. How are Digital IDs going to do what the current requirements can't?
It won't. It's impossible to police in that way.
There will always be away specifically in the digital realm to get passed it. (Can I borrow your phone mate.) It's hardly going to put desperate people of is it?
Also, is it actually going to be called a 'BritCard'?
I'm sure that's going to be wonderfully popular with at least one section of society in Northern Ireland and Scotland.
Governments with massive majorities literally quake in fear when faced with an internet petition.
What has size of majority got to do with it? Are you seriously suggesting that governments with massive majorities don't care about internet petitions/public opinion but governments with tiny majorities do? That will explain why the last Tory government was so unbothered with how unpopular they were! 😂
Sir Keir Starmer is currently shitting himself because of the unprecedented collapse of support for a Labour government, according to a recent opinion poll he is one of the most unpopular leaders in the Western world. Yesterday your mate Andy Burnham was openly gunning for him.
Having a "massive majority" actually puts Starmer in a more precarious position. The reason that over a hundred Labour MPs signed a letter yesterday urging that the government changes its policy on the child benefit cap, and Andy Burnham did nothing to quell talk of his leadership ambitions, is precisely because a government with a massive majority is stable.
If the government barely had a majority then Labour politicians would be extremely reluctant to rock the boat, create instability, and trigger the possibility of an early general election.
And on the question of compulsory ID cards yes of course the government cares about public opinion despite its massive majority, hence the gimmick about being able to report missed bin collections and potholes in your road. It's clearly the sweetener for an otherwise unpopular policy.
Exactly "illegal workers" is just double speak for immigrants, it is just more racism from Starmer with a veneer of deniability for the chattering classes. Another dead cat for his right wing economic failures.
Do you realise that you are the leading light of the chattering class of STW...
Also, is it actually going to be called a 'BritCard'?
That is the intention. It is to emphasis the fact that illegal foreigners won't be allowed to have one.
Or report missed bin collections.
That should win over a few Reform voters, maybe. And it makes Nigel Farage's opposition to it sound a bit unpatriotic.
I predict it'll be known as the ShitCard within a week of implementation. If it's ever implemented.
I mean it's fair enough to not want one of these things, or to think that on balance it's not a great idea. But given these things are standard across most european nations, the hyberbolic wailing thats happening seems especially ridiculous.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1971506935234273703
I feel warmly reassured by the last sentence.
I wonder how Nigel Farage will respond to Sir Keir Starmer's latest strike at his base? A couple of days ago it was about removing the settled status of foreigners, Farage must surely be running out of ammunition against the wily ol' Starmer?
Well there are around 50 million people in the UK over 18 soooooo....0.5% don't want it so far. Not that I'm massively for it mind you but sometimes when people quote these petitions as being useless (which they mainly are) this is generally because.
738,393 now so approx 1.5%.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but my biggest concern with digital ID is how much cross-linking of data there is between phone apps. They all feed data from one another.
How long before Facebook, Insta, X and your health apps require permission to access your digital ID (hidden in T&Cs that we all click accept) cross pollinating personal data.
Right, I guess the next step will be to link it to the adult verification thing, then they can very easily tie your twitter posts, porn viewing habits, reddit subs etc back to you. Makes mass surveillance trivial.
And on the question of compulsory ID cards yes of course the government cares about public opinion despite its massive majority, hence the gimmick about being able to report missed bin collections and potholes in your road. It's clearly the sweetener for an otherwise unpopular policy.
From one of the first posts on the subject….
The Times is running a poll on it and 8,000 votes in and it’s 80% in favour
But, yeah…. it’s not an internet petition, which we all know is the real nuclear option of democratic decision making.
I’m sure that like everything nowadays, it’s been focus-grouped to within an inch of its life
Somewhat hilariously, when asked for a comment on the subject, Kemi Badanoch said “there are arguments for and against”
Is it related to the OneGov account? The thing they try to force you to create an account for, and can only verify your identity using the OneGov phone app? Tried to renew my driving license, and leads to this. Unfortunately the app told me there were problems signing me in, before I'd even entered any sign in details. Tried another way. Couldn't verify security questions to ask me didn't even get to the stage where I gave them answers. Went to the Post Office in the end. Done.
edit: the only good thing about it: it gave the choice of using TXT msgs or an authenticator app, unlike universal credit which has me standing out in the middle of the road trying to get signal once a week.
Somewhat hilariously, when asked for a comment on the subject, Kemi Badanoch said “there are arguments for and against”
I must be lacking in 6th form humour, what's 'hilarious' about that?
There aren't arguments for and against?
Double post for some reason
Here is the fuller comment by Kemi Badenoch, it sounds remarkably sensible considering who is saying it.
https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1971465563781116253
There are arguments for and against digital ID eg many people already use digital identity for banking and online services. We’re certainly not opposed to that. But mandating ID is a different matter altogether.
Right, I guess the next step will be to link it to the adult verification thing, then they can very easily tie your twitter posts, porn viewing habits, reddit subs etc back to you. Makes mass surveillance trivial.
And then pass on a list of people borrowing Nineteen Eighty Four from the public library to the HMRC so they can investigate their affairs in detail.
Ah… so the whole thing is a distraction to shift the gaze of the nation away from… *checks notes* … ‘shady group’ Labour Together?
Righto.
Is it related to the OneGov account?
Yup. Your problem getting verified is what needs addressing. And you'd hope that is exactly what this is for.
Of course it's being sold as some kind of defence against immigrants... isn't everything now? Depressing.