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Ive got no preference for Angela Rayner, and there absoloutly no chance i'll be voting labour in the near future, due to some awful/offensive policies, but this is yet another witch hunt.
*As i understand it*
The Newcastle home is in trust, along with a payout granted to her child due to his disability (which was caused by negligence somewhere else). The money and home are protected by the trust to ensure her kid always has somewhere to live. Her Ex and she take it in turns at the house, with the kid who gets to stay in their home. Many people cant afford that, but a good setup, if you can.
The grace and favour house isnt "her" house. Its somewhere to live while shes at work in london. TBF i think that whole system is stupid and they should build a block of apartments (like the barbican) where each MPs seat has a designated apartment. what are they doing with the olympic village these days?
The Brighton house, is her house. Why she is MP of a constituency 250 miles from her home is another stupid situation. MPs should HAVE to be MPs where they live.
Shes made some "efficient" declerations, for instance claiming one primary residence for council tax reasons, and another for childcare reason, but ultimatley a loophole not illegal.
Grinds my gears when they whine about these loopholes. Lets see ALL the MPs loopholes on the table please. i wonder how many MPs have offshore held property, shell companies, LLCs etc.
I dont agree with it, but dont whine about it when youre all at it.
Comrade Corbyn made some interesting comments yesterday, about how the labour party is very top down, and at the top they are more concerned with the power struggle than actually doing any work. Which is probably how she got stuck in this mess. Plonker. Why can they just get it right while theyre subject to publi scrutiny. It cannot be that hard.
that she has deliberately manipulated house buying and selling to evade tax and been caught out doing so
By my count Angela Raynor now has a "property portfolio" that's the same as well, yours. Two things. Thing One You've never disguised your dislike for Angela Raynor, I'll put you in the box along with all the politicians capitalising on it. Thing Two, I find it difficult to swallow, given her previous experience selling houses, that she'd try to game the system.
Only I am selling mine - and am intending to pay the tax even tho I could game the system to avoid it
Its obvious she set up the various deals to avoid tax if you read the reports and her statement
Comrade Corbyn made some interesting comments yesterday, about how the labour party is very top down, and at the top they are more concerned with the power struggle than actually doing any work. Which is probably how she got stuck in this mess. Plonker.
Please draw a line from internal power struggle obsessions to trusts, property portfolios and tax efficient schemes.
You were doing quite well up to that point.
Its obvious she set up the various deals to avoid tax if you read the reports and her statement
It's not 'obvious' at all. Her Manchester house is owned by a trust, so's my mother's house. There are pretty easy to undertand reasons why folks do it, and it's perfectly legal. I'll bet something approaching the following was the conversation
conveyancing lawyer "Do you own any other properties?"
AR "I do, as a trustee"
Con lawyer: "Do you have an interest in the trust?"
AR: turning to Trust's lawyer "Do I?"
Trusts Lawyer : "No, you're just a beneficiary"
The conveyancing lawyer has over simplified the query and the trust's lawyer has answered the literal question as opposed to answering the question AR should've asked. Should we expect a normal person to seek out further advice from Tax/Stamp duty expertise once they've had a conversation with two lawyers? Probs not, but if you're the DPM who's been stung on property before, in hindsight she probably should've. At the very least it would've headed off the obvious trolling of folks who get thier knickers in a twist about successful single mums owing (count them) two! houses...
Comrade Corbyn made some interesting comments yesterday, about how the labour party is very top down
Given the comical/Kafkaesque levels of central control exerted by Seamus Milne and Karie Murphy after the 2017 election defeat, he should probs keep schtum about "top down" control.
I have a bridge to sell you if you believe that Nickc 🙂
I have a bridge to sell you if you believe that Nickc 🙂
"All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds"
Raynor's excuse is very hard to believe. I looked into doing exactly the same to avoid higher rate stamp duty, and arrived at the right answer after a short time on Google. I'm sure STW could have given me the right answer too.
I don't believe that a housing minister with daily access to the Chancellor can't find correct tax advice on a simple house transaction.
The conveyancing solicitor says that it did not offer tax advice: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/04/angela-rayner-used-family-conveyancing-firm-to-buy-tax-row-flat
The conveyancing solicitor says that it did not offer tax advice
“I confirm my firm does not deal with trusts or offer tax advice. The stamp duty land tax was calculated using the HMRC calculator and was strictly based on the facts and information provided to us.”
She added: “We believe we did everything correctly and in good faith.”
That sounds pretty much like what I'd expect - convayance solicitors are not typically estate planning specialists.
So I supose the questions are now -
- Did she 'DIY' the trust? sounds really stupid if she did.
- Did she instruct a specialist solicitor to set up the trust, and what was thier advice?
The conveyance solicitors opinion is a bit of a red herring if you ask me - it's really not thier job, or area of expertise beyond basic fraud/laundering checks when purchasing property.
EDIT:
she is understood to have consulted two experts on trust law before completing the purchase.
These are the people that need to answer whether they gave bad advice, or if they gave good advice and she ignored it.
Yes, you have to feel sorry for the small family run solicitors that she is trying to throw under the bus. Being blamed for this potentially puts them out of business .. after all, if it's their fault who would use them if they are so incompetent?
It's understandable for your average person to make such a mistake regarding such a complicated situation - but then again average people don't arrange such complicated situations; it's for those people a little more than savvy who are looking at the finer details where potential savings can be made .. someone leading any local government department of housing or the deputy leader of government you'd expect to be diligent to have all the details for sure. And if not - surely that in itself shows how incompetent she is to be in such an important role.
When I have a tax query I just phone up the HMRC who have always been very helpful and know their subject. I am sure they would have given the answer or good guidance if called.
I tested the issue with my wife who is a chartered tax advisor and teaches accountancy. Her view is that this is basic knowledge any qualified tax accountant would have.
Rayner’s allies say she did not initially realise the tax implications of her son’s trust, even though she is understood to have consulted two experts on trust law before completing the purchase.
Drip drip drip of info. This is the critical bit - she needs to say who gave her this advice and what it was.
The last time I used a conveyancer they managed to get the purchase price and the stamp duty calculation wrong. When they amended the purchase price at my instruction they got the new stamp duty amount wrong too. I supplied the correct figure for them. They ain't exactly giving this work to a crack team of solicitors who go over your tax affairs to make sure everything is in order.
This is the critical bit - she needs to say who gave her this advice and what it was.
I am not sure it really matters now and she was accountable just as I am if I don't declare stuff/work out stuff correctly regardless of who gave me duff advice. I often phone up HMRC just to check when doing things that could have a tax implication. This is just for my benefit of not getting caught out but if I screw up it won't be front pages news.
If you are looking to ensure you pay as little tax as possible at least do it properly like Farage...
If you are looking to ensure you pay as little tax as possible at least do it properly like Farage...
100% this, always going to be the achileas heal of 'a working class' MP
those with wealthy backgrounds will have the knowledge and connections to make sure they dodge tax in the approved fashion.
being honest I wouldnt have a clue either, Id just do what my solicitor said.
But Im not housing minister & ignorance is no excuse etc, so I reckon she's toast, which is a shame as she will just be replaced by a faceless PPE graduate.
The RW press have been after her since forever , it was almost inevitable that she'd get caught for something
The RW press have been after her since forever , it was almost inevitable that she'd get caught for something
If you're aware of a vendetta then you make darn sure that you're cleaner than a very clean thing
She knows that the media are looking at her property dealings since the pre-election tax row and she should have sought expert counsel before media coverage, not after.
As above, her conveyancing firm has denied giving either trust or tax advice to Angela Rayner, which has always been my experience of conveyancers.
In a statement to the Telegraph, managing director Joanna Verrico said: ‘We acted for Ms Rayner when she purchased the flat in Hove. We did not and never have given tax or trust advice. It’s something we always refer our clients to an accountant or tax expert for.’ https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/conveyancing-firm-denies-giving-rayner-tax-advice/5124370.article
I'm more intrigued why the compensation money from AGs' child would be used to buy a parents share of the family home
So the child can stay in the home as an adult, with parents taking it in turns to return to be with and look after them? The alternative is buying them a new home with the funds and the parents staying in the old home, but that doesn’t really work if the marriage has broken down.
She's gone.
And like that, she's gone.
A shame. I have little hope that her replacement will be as effective, or can relate to people in social and ‘affordable’ housing in the same way. Whoever they are.
She believed that she relied on the legal advice she had received, but unfortunately did not heed the caution contained within it, which acknowledged that it did not constitute expert tax advice and which suggested that expert advice be sought.
Thats the quote from the ethics advisor
“I deeply regret my decision to not seek additional specialist tax advice”
From Raynor
So once again its the lies, partial truths and cover up that gets them. Yesterday she said she took advice from 2 experts
Sad.
Time for the media to have a close look at Farbage's tax history now eh?
Sad.
Time for the media to have a close look at Farbage's tax history now eh?
Nigel Farage is using a private company to reduce his tax bill on his GB News media appearances and other outside employment in a television star-style arrangement that has in recent years become frowned on by major broadcasters.
The Reform UK leader diverts money from his prime-time TV show into his company, which means that he paid only 25% corporation tax on profits, instead of 40% income tax, and could offset some expenses.
The Clacton MP, who is also paid a £94,000-a-year MP’s salary, has in the past criticised people who try to avoid tax as the “common enemy” and has previously come under fire for setting up a trust fund in an offshore tax haven.
He has also claimed that some tax avoidance schemes were acceptable. “Most forms of legal tax avoidance are OK, but clearly some are not,” he said in 2014, adding that nobody voluntarily paid anything to HMRC while defending reducing a tax bill within the law.
Farage claimed last year to have “bought a house” in his constituency, but the property is actually owned in the name of his partner, meaning he legally avoided higher-rate stamp duty on the purchase of an additional home – given that he already owns other properties.
The use of personal service companies is not illegal, but it has been criticised across the political spectrum as a way to reduce tax bills. Farage has declined to publish his tax returns for 2023/24.
Several broadcasters including the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 have cracked down on the practice in recent years. HMRC has repeatedly tightened the rules around off-payroll working (IR35) to stop this kind of tax avoidance.
The parliamentary register of interests shows that Farage has made nearly £400,000 from GB News since August 2024, for about 190 hours’ work. This suggests he is being paid more than £2,000 an hour by the news channel.
All payments for his GB News work are paid directly to his company, Thorn in the Side Ltd, of which he is the director and only shareholder. He has other paid roles including as a brand ambassador for gold bullion firms, speaking on the international circuit, and a Daily Telegraph column.
The latest accounts show that as of 31 May 2024, the company had £1.7m in cash, up over £1m in a year. It also owns two investment properties.
She should've resigned as soon as the story emerged, her position was clearly untenable.
I am proud that in every decision I made, I did it for them. I would never have become deputy prime minister if not for the decisions taken by the last Labour government, giving me a council house to support me,
From Raynors statement. A council house she then bought at a discount and then sold at profit meaning that house is no longer available for others in her position. A house she bought using tory legislation to do so
gross hypocrisy
So once again its the lies, partial truths and cover up that gets them.
This - only the bare minimum was disclosed to the public and not necessarily in the correct time order.
Yesterday she said she took advice from 2 experts
I'm sure she did but my guess is it was after the Telegraph story and they both said that she'd underpaid.
When she bought the Hove house maybe the conveyancers asked her if she owned another house and when she said "No" they intimated that only normal SD was due.
They could only work with the information they were told - I'm finding it hard to believe that she was unaware of the situation regarding buying another house given the amount of time spent working on the legals for her son's trust.
A council house she then bought at a discount and then sold at profit meaning that house is no longer available for others in her position. A house she bought using tory legislation to do so
gross hypocrisy
Oh bugger off TJ. She didn't do anything millions of other working class people did. Or are you arguing that working class people should be doomed to a life of rent-paying and never have an opportunity own their own homes? The right-to-buy policy had many flaws - not replacing social housing stock being the main one - but it at least provided a leg up for working people to achieve a little bit of security. You seem to be arguing that working class people are hypocrites for wanting to be better off financially. How about you direct your ire at silver spoon multi-millionaire tax dodgers instead of someone who worked her way up from nothing?
Well, she has resigned from all three positions now. Honestly, the right decision and something that i have to give her credit for.
Of course its gross hypocrisy to state that the council house gave her a chance she wouldn't have had otherwise and then to remove that council house from the stock of council houses whilst making a profit from the public purse. She directly took opportunity from others
Or are you arguing that working class people should be doomed to a life of rent-paying and never have an opportunity own their own homes?
She has made it harder for those who follow her
She directly took opportunity from others
No, the policy which didn't allow councils to reinvest the money from council house sales in new social housing did that. The people who bought the houses simply took a very good opportunity to better themselves. People who bought council houses are not morally responsible for the lack of social housing in this country. This is a very odd take TBH.
Aye right.
Oh bugger off TJ. She didn't do anything millions of other working class people did. Or are you arguing that working class people should be doomed to a life of rent-paying and never have an opportunity own their own homes? The right-to-buy policy had many flaws - not replacing social housing stock being the main one - but it at least provided a leg up for working people to achieve a little bit of security. You seem to be arguing that working class people are hypocrites for wanting to be better off financially. How about you direct your ire at silver spoon multi-millionaire tax dodgers instead of someone who worked her way up from nothing?
Unusually I agree with every word of that, in principle right to buy was an excellent tool to enhance social mobility, i practice it was implemented terribly because all Thatcher was interested in was more home owners who are more likely to vote Tory. She didn't want social housing and actively stopped councils from using the proceeds to build more housing.
Ultimately I wanted Rayner to be so much better than all of this.
All this what? what are you complaining about exactly? The nub of the story here is "Woman with complex tax arrangements is badly advised, political opponents seek to capitalise" There's even a headline in todays Telegraph (of all places) that says "I'm a tax expert, and even I don't know about the rules Rayner broke" . So what's your complaint about her? That she has complex tax arrangements? That she's buying a place in Hove? That because she's a Labour politician she can't take advantage of the salary she's earning? That she should live in a council flat and wear a sour expression?
She didn't really do a whole load of much.
Why on earth do centrists keep queuing to defend the indefensible?
I thought she would be better in every respect.
All I will say is your expectations of a Labour government is extremely low.
As soon as this scandal broke or even as soon as she realised she had underpaid, maybe she should have just put her hands in her pockets and coughed up the evaded £40k plus the maximum % fine (~30%?).
Right to buy was never about social mobility. It was about destroying the stock of council housing and even if councils had been allowed to build new houses with the receipts they could never have replaced the stock because of the discounts given. It was once again the transfer of state owned property into private hands with a corresponding huge loss of money to the state.
It has meant in most of the country there now is very little council housing and many of the houses sold have ended up as private rented to folk on housing benefit at much higher rents than council rents.
It was a huge transfer of money and property from the state ie the people to individuals. Its cost the country massivly
She believed that she relied on the legal advice she had received, but unfortunately did not heed the caution contained within it, which acknowledged that it did not constitute expert tax advice and which suggested that expert advice be sought.
Thats the quote from the ethics advisor
“I deeply regret my decision to not seek additional specialist tax advice”
From Raynor
So once again its the lies, partial truths and cover up that gets them. Yesterday she said she took advice from 2 experts
I have some sympathy for her. She sought expert advice, and the experts then said "oh but we aren't really experts in this area so you might need even more specialist advice to be sure". They'll still have charged her for telling her what they don't know, I'm sure! Anyone who has ever sought legal or tax advice knows it always comes with caveats like this. In her position, should she have done more? Possibly. Should she be liable for 2nd home stamp duty given she doesn't own the other house? Possibly not - it seems the trust carve out is probably not for that reason, and if I understood the "expert" on the radio yesterday if she had waited till her son was 18 she'd have been in the clear!
When I say I have some sympathy, I don't mean loads of sympathy - she can afford an £800K house, so I'm sure she'll survive! Moreover regardless of the tax position I don't think its a good look for the housing minister to be actively complaining about a housing crisis and owning a house she wasn't going to be living in! Personally I'd welcome all MP's financial affairs being open to such scrutiny, but it conflicts me that whilst I'd welcome that for all, it feels like this has become a personal vendetta - how did anyone know what she paid in Stamp Duty?
The criticism for buying a council house using a tory law is pretty ridiculous (it was a Thatcher policy which multiple governments of various colours kept; should potential politicians live their whole lives in a parallel world where they never benefit from policies they oppose?). Anyone who could do it, and didn't, was probably making poor financial decisions. The flaw in the policy was not the right to buy - it was that the proceeds were not used to build replacement properties.