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https://bsky.app/profile/edwinhayward.com/post/3lvyjo3vudk2h
None of this surprises me at all.
Reform and Labour coalition coming soon. 😏
And they say democracy doesn't work...
I had to spend a minute or two thinking about whether to post this link here or in the Farage thread (which is telling in itself). Anyhow - every bloody word of this:
The galling idiocy of it all is that posting hectically about immigration and rolling out hardline measures is self-defeating. It doesn’t even work to instil confidence in Labour as the only credible party on immigration. The more Labour presses the issue, the more it reinforces the validity of anti-immigration rhetoric, empowering Reform as the specialised vehicle of crackdown. To voters mobilised by this, Labour can never be better than the real thing.
Why is the guardian so late to this?
I mean in the run up to election there was plenty of rhetoric that we were told - 'they needed to do get elected.'
Some of us were calling Labour a right-wing support act more than 12 months ago.
The more Labour presses the issue, the more it reinforces the validity of anti-immigration rhetoric, empowering Reform as the specialised vehicle of crackdown. To voters mobilised by this, Labour can never be better than the real thing.
Absolutely. It's the "Controls on Immigration" mug all over again. Did little to nothing to gain Labour support, it just put more wind under the wings of the campaign to leave the EU.
Whilst I agree illegal immigration is a sideshow to the many more serious issues facing the country, does anyone have any sensible suggestions about how Labour do tackle this mess? The Tory's weaponized and then lost control of small boats. Labour could just ignore the whole thing but that just gives their opponents a big stick to beat them with. Trying to point out that in general immigration is a good thing is not going to win any hearts and minds at the moment.
They could actually start tackling the problems of affordability and wealth inequality, end the 2 child cap, invest in education, bring back the 28 billion they promised for GBenergy to create good jobs (directly employed not farmed out to corporations) and actual hope of decreased energy costs in the future, increase NHS spending especially for local services and dentistry, government housebuilding (not a burning of the regulations to let developers profit further from desperation and despair, learning the lessons from Grenfell was just another in the long list of Starmers lies), bring back surestart to give the youth a chance to break the cycle of no hope leading into crime.
That's just a few things of the top of my head they could start with to let the country know they were on their side, and not just keep repeating the oligarchs propaganda about growth and trickle down, start cutting the legs off the lies that point to immigration as the dead cat distraction to cover the failures of the idiotic fantasy economic system that is making things worse.
. Labour could just ignore the whole thing but that just gives their opponents a big stick to beat them with.
It is not simply a question of ignoring the issue, it is about prioritizing issues. When people start going "blah blah blah, small boats, blah blah blah, small boats" the response should "well okay, yes it's not an ideal way for people to claim asylum in the UK" and then move on to talk about real issues which actually effect people's lives, eg, affordable housing, NHS, etc
If you allow Nigel Farage set the agenda he will always win, just ask Rishi Sunak.
The problem is that Starmer's so-called Labour government doesn't have any credible solutions for issues which concern people's lives, just like Rishi Sunak and the Tories, so they run with the small boats bollocks as a distraction, just like the Tories.
It is time that voters were actually offered something genuinely different. Maybe time for a new party?
Labour could just ignore the whole thing but that just gives their opponents a big stick to beat them with.
Or here's a thing ... They could try and fix stuff that disenfranchises people to go down these hateful paths. It's been a while in the making.
They could try and take hold of the narrative better than they are doing too.
But, no, because they've failed the electorate with their lack of economic planning and delivered screw up after screw up - they are just taking the cheap and authoritarian route. I mean it's Yvette Cooper - who'd have thought she was going to be a decent human being?
Acid test: if this were the Tories would you be saying the same thing. Of course your wouldn't.
What happend to the liberal 'standards' of being mostly pro-migration ?
Labour's obsession with believing that the electorate will buy this approach is almost as incredible as the people that thought they would turn left in power. It would be great to of the put some effort into doing things instead of stood in front of flags and saying random things like 'mission led government.'.
People didn't buy it and that's on them for not using the tools of the state to fix it start to fix massive structural issues.
Whilst I agree illegal immigration is a sideshow to the many more serious issues facing the country, does anyone have any sensible suggestions about how Labour do tackle this mess?
How about putting them to work? A lot of the hysteria around immigration/asylum seekers is the imagery of down-at-heel young black/asian men hanging around working class formerly white communities with very little to do. People see this either in real life or in the news and then jump to the conclusion that they are either committing crime or harassing the local female population. We've got fruit farms and other businesses going to the wall due to the lack of immigrant labour, yet have thousands of 'illegals' sitting on their backsides living on food stamps. Seems like an obvious solution to me? 🤷♂️
Whilst I agree illegal immigration is a sideshow to the many more serious issues facing the country, does anyone have any sensible suggestions about how Labour do tackle this mess?
Redirect their reason for existence to enacting actual change in people's lives. Get rid of the Sweeney and do something similar to what Daz is suggesting if workable.
It sounds counterintuitive but it would also steal Reform's thunder by nationalising utilities. People will be a lot more accommodating if they believe the government has done something good for them. (Oh my water bill has gone down instead of up.)
I genuinely believe the majority of anger comes from people's material conditions not being dealt with.
Change the narrative, talk about patriotism in terms of how well we look after each other too.
Let's face it they are doing the exact opposite of this and it just gets worse.
How about putting them to work?
Na, you can’t win over the anti-immigrant contingent that way… either immigrants are stealing their jobs… or they are sponging off the state (despite the evidence to the contrary). Working, or not working, people are led to hate and blame them either way.
either immigrants are stealing their jobs…
Much better to have immigrants stealing their jobs (and this is an easy accusation to counter) than raping and assaulting their daughters.
I don’t know…. I’ve heard how some people talk about immigrants (and people they think are immigrants) working in the NHS… and it’s very much along those lines. People are whipped up to hate/fear beyond logic. And this government isn’t helping counter that at all right now, with it’s messaging about deporting people (yes, there are people that will need to be deported… but crowing about doing so only feeds the “send up back to where they came from” feelings at large in the UK).
Guess this belongs here as it talks about the future of the youth movement in Labour (or lack of it) by Hattie Simpson
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2025/08/inside-labour-students-revolt-over-gaza
Much better to have immigrants stealing their jobs (and this is an easy accusation to counter) than raping and assaulting their daughters.
The kind of person who would vote for Reform will just accuse them of both.
I’ve heard how some people talk about immigrants (and people they think are immigrants) working in the NHS…
Most of the current narrative around immigrants pushed by both Reform and Labour is focused on illegals and asylum seekers, not legal immigrants working in the NHS. This morning Reform held a laughable news conference focused entirely on illegal young migrant men who are a threat to young women in our communities. The idiot Reform MP even talked about illegal asylum seekers being 'sexually frustrated' because they're bored and have nothing to do. This has got nothing to do with legal NHS workers so Labour should at least be making huge efforts to separate the two sides of this by highlighting the benefits of legal migration and coming up with a plan to keep illegal migrants busy so that they don't feel tempted to sexually harass our innocent and impressionable young women.
The kind of person who would vote for Reform
There are lots of types of people who would vote Reform, many of them are pissed off working class people who haven't benefitted from a Labour govt or Labour representation in nearly 20 years. These people are very persuadable that immigration isn't the primary issue they should be bothered about, but they need to see improvement in other places before they'll be convinced of that.
These people are very persuadable that immigration isn't the primary issue they should be bothered about, but they need to see improvement in other places before they'll be convinced of that.
I'll take your word for it...
These people are very persuadable that immigration isn't the primary issue they should be bothered about
I like the positive spin, and I really want you to be right.
I fear we're into a "people can be persuaded not to have too much fast food" situation... the lures are far stronger at a base level, and the advertising so much more prevalent, the clickbait too lucrative, the grifters too experienced and embedded... it's an uphill battle to say the least.
They could try and fix stuff that disenfranchises people to go down these hateful paths.
They did try that with welfare reform which is a much bigger issue than illegal immigration. They tried to tackle the completely random way it supports people and the unsustainable growth of welfare but the left wing of the party torpedoed that. Real change to peoples lives will take a generation to happen and will be painful. People have been promised a pipe dream of how the state can support them which was never sustainable. The penny's finally dropped and people are looking for someone to blame, immigrants are always the easy target.
The world has changed and the welfare state of the past is not fit for purpose. It was largely based on most people working (either earning a wage or as a care giver to family members) and only living a few years into retirement. We have people living 20 plus years past retirement whilst attne same time an ever increasing number of people taking themselves out of the labour market through lifestyle related physical and mental health issues. I would see people living longer and more people having the opportunity to work (remember the halcyon days of the 70s where it was still expected women would give up work and look after kids and elderly relatives) but this is bringing challenges successive governments have failed to tackle because it's hard and the electorate didn't want a cold dose of reality after years of cheap credit and being told they could have it all. Look at the venom directed at the boomer generation just because they had the audacity to be born at a more advantageous time.
Ah so people on welfare are responsible for wealth inequality and that’s why labour have to be racist, what moronic right wing bollocks are you going to come out with next.
15 years of tory austerity and still the right wingers want to cut more.
The world has changed and the welfare state of the past is not fit for purpose. It was largely based on most people working (either earning a wage or as a care giver to family members) and only living a few years into retirement. We have people living 20 plus years past retirement.....
So your explanation for why Keir Starmer has gone from making "the moral case for socialism" when he was standing to be Labour leader, to now as Prime Minister 6 years later, adopting hard-right Nigel Farage approved policies is that working people are living too long?
Yeah, let's blame the NHS for the need to abandon socialism, they are making people live too long! If only working people were living just a few years into their retirement instead of "20 plus years"!
Or if only someone came up with some sort of "new technology' which meant that the economy wasn't as Labour intensive as in previous decades !
successive governments have failed to tackle because it's hard and the electorate didn't want a cold dose of reality after years...
So the centrist argument used to be that right-wing policies had to be embraced because that was allegedly what the electorate wanted.
Now the electorate are being castigated for not wanting "a cold dose of reality"
Look at the venom directed at the boomer generation just because they had the audacity to be born at a more advantageous time.
Venom? You do realise your entire rant was basically directed at the boomers right? Well aside from the normal tedious right wing rant about those nasty lefties being to blame for everything despite it being the centre and hard right who have been in power.
I know its not the right wing way to take any personal responsibility but its pretty ****ing rich to lecture people about "cold dose of reality" whilst reinventing things so that the boomers just happened to be "born at a more advantageous time."
Perhaps if they hadnt voted for parties promising them the earth and selling off our countries resources on the cheap to give them an easy life then we might be in a better position now.
Look at the venom directed at the boomer generation just because they had the audacity to be born at a more advantageous time.
It's not that, though.
It's them being born at an advantageous time, retiring at 55 on gold-plated pensions, then acting ****ishly in their political leanings thereafter.
Yeah the ones that did okay ok with their pensions and houses, and then lecturing everyone else about working harder etc. (Adoring Thatcher just because she sold assets created by the state. Many boomers don't realise it was socialist policies that provided their lifestyle and advantage.)
People are clueless about how an economy makes decisions for them and they just happen to be in the right place at the right time.
If anything we should learn from thes situations as to what makes an economy work for everyone rather than punish, especially at retirement.
whilst attne same time an ever increasing number of people taking themselves out of the labour market through lifestyle related physical and mental health issues.
Wow! I've read some bollocks on these threads but this is up there with the best. What are these lifestyle related mental health issues? Maybe it's the crushing realisation for many young (and not so young) people living in a neoliberal capitalist economy that no matter how hard they study and work they will never achieve the things their elders did? Or perhaps it's more material stuff like being stuck in a cycle of paying ever increasing rents to landlords with no hope of being able to buy their own home? It's ok though, they have iphones and mocha lattes, aren't they ****ing lucky!
Yeah the ones that did okay ok with their pensions and houses, and then lecturing everyone else about working harder etc.
Mrs Daz's uncle was a very successful business owner and never misses an opportunity to tell his younger relatives how they need to work hard, knuckle down and stop complaining about how the world is screwed. I don't begrudge him his success but he sold his business aged 50 (and put a lot of people out of jobs in the process) and has spent the last 30 years playing golf on a Spanish Costa and swanning around the world on cruises and fancy holidays. If he and his ilk want to lecture the younger generation about working hard maybe they could set a better example?
I know plenty of people who have done very well from being lucky and not particularly working hard and more people who have worked hard and are just getting by.
Our system does not allow for this by compensating the difference via government intervention. That is the point of government economic choices - to elevate everyone up as much as possible.
The rentier economy is poison for the well-being of a nation.
It really doesn't have to be like this - but it's going to take someone with "balls" to crack some eggs.
Wow! I've read some bollocks on these threads but this is up there with the best. What are these lifestyle related mental health issues?
The largest increase in mental health and lifestyle health referrals is coming from the 8-25 age group. Its triggering the largest increase in welfare costs in the shortest timeframe the NHS/DWP has experienced, there's been an increase in claims and payments of 38% from 19/20 to 23/24. There's a few reasons; COVID, social pressures, cost of living, poor work, increase in DT2 (once a disease of the elderly, now pretty common amongst 30 year olds) and other lifestyle diseases. Mental health services in the NHS has a massive waiting list (it's always been a Cinderella service) and the current response - have a welfare payment while you wait too long for treatment, isn't sustainable for anyone.
Needs long term solutions that will take 20 years or more to see results, but will also take huge amounts of social changes including increased interventions (the Nanny State) about lifestyle choices, increased investment in mental health services, and (probably unpopularly) incentives to get back into work rather than part reliance on state handouts, and tax increases. This is a problem that taken a decade and half from 2008 to materialise, and the further economic hits of Brexit and COVID hasn't helped. I doubt this govt has the political capital to spend to make the changes needed. I doubt near-future govts will either.
huge amounts of social changes including increased interventions (the Nanny State)
Ban all social media sites unless they can adhere to strict guidelines regarding moderation, responsible usage and misinformation. If we can regulate gambling we can regulate social media.
This is a problem that taken a decade and half from 2008 to materialise
Wasn’t denying the existence of mental health problems, more that people were ‘removing themselves’ from the workforce and that they were somehow self-inflicted due to lifestyle.
more that people were ‘removing themselves’ from the workforce and that they were somehow self-inflicted due to lifestyle.
There's some truth to it, the UK has more of it's population 'economically inactive' than most other countries in Europe. I think the evidence shows that all industrialised nations have taken a hit (especially around COVID) the UK has been slower to recover. Some of those folks have lifestyle diseases that make it harder to get back to work. BBC article
lifestyle diseases
Such as? Your link shows students, carers, retirees and the sick as the main groups not working. What is a "lifestyle disease"?
What is a "lifestyle disease"?
Sounds very fashionable, whatever it is.
There's some truth to it
Maybe there is, although like Kelvin I don't really know what a 'lifestyle disease' is. Unless you're referring to the lifestyle disease that is caused by living in an economy which provides very little hope or opportunity to young people who want to stand on their own two feet and achieve things in life. It's easy for us older types to shout 'get back to work you lazy sods' or 'things were harder back in our day blah blah' but I honestly think young people today have so little hope* that they essentially give up and who can blame them? Add in the fact that many young people come from families who have massively benefitted from the property boom and rentier economy there's not much incentive for them to work a normal job.
*If I look at my own kids as an example I see two teenagers who from an early age (15-16) were worrying about 'building a CV' so that they could get a decent job in later life, who worked their asses off to get decent GCSE/A-level grades (far beyond what I ever did), who had part time jobs to save for university, who pay exorbitant rents at university (£800/month for a room in a shared house), who don't go out drinking and partying all the time because it's too expensive, and who will almost certainly struggle to get a decent job when they graduate. Unless they are very lucky they will almost certainly end up living back at home after university and I'll be extending my working life to help them in any way I can. I look back at what my life was like at that age and I can categorically tell you I didn't have any of these worries, so it's a little rich for the older generation to be moaning about how lazy they are.
What is a "lifestyle disease"?
A disease that's caused by lifestyle choices. excessive alcohol, eating, smoking, lack of exercise etc etc. They're generally things like COPD, Hypertension, DT2, obesity, stroke, some cancers. The patient groups are getting younger and younger.
excessive alcohol, eating, smoking, lack of exercise etc etc
I could imagine that these are precisely the habits that a person would fall into if they were unable to get a job.
I could imagine that these are precisely the habits that a person would fall into if they were unable to get a job.
And opting out of starting a family or leaving it much later than previous generations did. It's a real thing that with modern economic pressures and the doom and gloom associated with climate change and other future crises (war etc) many young people have no intention or inclination to have kids themselves.
We're raising a generation of nihilistic individualists who feel very little agency in society or their communities and that's mostly a result of economics, politics and modern technology. One thing I do agree with nickc is that this is going to require massive state intervention to turn around, but there's very little sign that'll happen, and instead it's going the other way at an accelerating rate.
I don't agree however that these diseases nickc describes are 'self inflicted'. They're a direct result of the socio-economic environment in which people live. Doesn't take a genius to work out that people will be healthier if they have financial security and a positive outlook on life and the future.
Doesn't take a genius to work out that people will be healthier if they have financial security and a positive outlook on life and the future.
And largely that's a job, not benefits. Moving the increase in population we've managed to leave aside for this long will now take a generation to change I reckon
I don't agree however that these diseases nickc describes are 'self inflicted'.
They are in so much as they're the sorts of diseases that are entirely preventable through different choices, and are not genetic or some other cause that's out of the control of people. Just explaining obesity as some sort of result of being out of work is just lazy finger-pointing. There is however a massive gap in education that still manages to catch me off guard. We've (the practice I work at) have started a patient group for hypertensive, Obese, DT2 patients and there is still surprisingly a lack of understanding about what, for example, eating healthily means. We've still so far to go that any number of lists of calorie content on menus isn't going to solve. It will take legislation about fast food pricing and restaurants near schools, the out-lawing of smoking for this coming generation, I dunno, tax breaks for not going to the GP?
Any govt of any stripe wanting to tackle the causes of these diseases, not just this govt, will find that they'll become pretty unpopular pretty rapidly if there's (for instance) an increase in alcohol tax, or a 20p tax on a Big Mac...
tax breaks for not going to the GP?
How will that help prevent people becoming too sick to work?
I'm just making suggestions, I've no idea what will work and what won't. I do think though that giving people benefits has been the 'easier' choice for previous govts rather than tackle to root causes of why there's been a massive increase in the population who're either mentally of physically unwell.
I’m with you on the “prevention before direct support” angle, but that doesn’t help those already sick or those that will become sick no matter what the early interventions. So you need both. Also, “tax breaks” to not see your GP can only put people off seeking early interventions (unless they are really about allowing those who can most easily pay tax to opt out and go private, decreasing funding and support for the NHS).
The Free Speech Union, the delightful Toby Young, has come down to my neck of the woods, to defend free speech. Thanet council are proposing £100 fines for swearing in public... That's at least how the media and Young are portraying it, in the least nuanced basic terms to get people all frothed up.
I had to look them up just to confirm my suspicions about them, which didn't take long at all. Didn't recall seeing them or him mentioned on here, so did a search... results from 15 years ago, with all the usual suspects 🤣
I dunno, tax breaks for not going to the GP?
Will probably have the opposite effect by discouraging people from going to the GP and getting treatment for treatable conditions. Extra tax on junk foods seems like a no-brainer, although higher alcohol taxes and banning smoking will create a backlash. All this seems to be avoiding the real problem though, which is providing decent, well paying jobs where people feel secure and having a supportive safety net when they can't work.
I hope that Sir Keir Starmer is paying close attention to what his buddy Donald Trump has to say about the worsening human rights situation in the UK.
I guess that the "Special Relationship" which Starmer keeps banging on about gives particular value to the opinions of the president of the United States
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqjyeeke7qko
I don't suppose they took into account that you can now be arrested for terrorism in the UK for holding up a sign saying "I oppose genocide, I support Palestine Action"