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I really wish you could just accept that Stephanie Kelton might not be the final word in all fiscal matters, rone.
Challenge me on my knowledge then?
It's not just Stephanie Kelton. Btw.
Few facts for you:
The dollar being the reserve currency is one thing - MMT is another.
It's just that if you assume it's as simple as printing money and taxing later then you are going to find a lot of rich people have gotten much much richer while everyone else has gotten much much poorer
But that's how the system works. There is no other way currently. We spend first and tax later. Fact.
What you've failed to acknowledge like many which just can't get a handle on our finances is the system works one way and the politicians pretend it works another.
Don't blame me or MMT for the current system.
No one ever said it was as simple as just issuing money (it's not printed by the way. ) What we are saying is that politicians pretend there is a lack of money when there isn't. That works against you.
So when Labour come to power and say there is a black-hole and we can't do xyz - then all of sudden they can. What do you think?
Your focus on MMT takes away focus from the real issue which is that the vast majority of wealth circulates in a closed loop system where people who can pay for privileged access can siphon off a small percentage by having a slight advantage.
Rubbish. (And if this the case - tax them - no one in MMT is against taxation.)
MMT and my focus exist to push back against narratives that exist to keep society ticking over on poor outcomes and choices because of mythical restrictions.
MMT doesn't say anything about other types of political problems so therefore doesn't take away from it.
You're basically like many others totally warping the position of MMT to make the point that what - we have poor distribution? A poor taxation system, inequality ?
Just what the heck is your point?
I mean perhaps if when Labour came to power they'd not gone down this rough austerity drive (self-imposed) we wouldn't be looking at Reform down the barrel now would we.
So, no I don't get your logic. Mine has been vindicated time and time again that when push comes to shove government's like ours (and the USA, Canada etc) can begin a program of fixing stuff despite the lack of money arguments.
Why would any progressive take a stand against that?
Bruce we've literally just had a spending review which *maybe* could change the course of Labour's luck and start to turn the outlook on the government's focus and you want to push back at the financial choices that allowed this to happen - simply because I speculated how this might occur?
It's MMT front and centre. If you don't want the discussion don't engage with it - but it won't change facts.
Byline Times are positing that Ms Reeves is moving us away from a neo-liberal US style economy to a Social Democratic Scandinavian style economy. If it works it will be a novel experience for everyone.
Just what the heck is your point?
My point is that you make the same point over and over again as if creating/printing money would somehow magically fix everything.
It won't.
When people do work they create value*. However you want to measure that value is irrelevant.
The problem is that the value that is created is currently flowing to those at the very top and everyone else is getting poorer. Until this issue is addressed how you want to describe the economic system is irrelevant.
You are assuming that the rest of us are particularly dense and that is why we don't agree with your analysis. We aren't. We simply understand that until something is done about the steady flow of value to the top then talk of MMT is irrelevant.
*Obviously not all work results in actual value but for the sake of this argument let's assume it does. Although, of course, it could be argued that a lot of this valueless work is at least partially the cause of much of the financial issues that are plaguing the middle and working classes across the World.
We simply understand that until something is done about the steady flow of value to the top then talk of MMT is irrelevant.
Taxation would sort that out and teaching everyone the meaning of "enough".
EDIT Before anyone says that the rich will leave, studies show that no, they won't. We can live with 0.2% wastage of the inordinately rich.
Taxation would sort that out and teaching everyone the meaning of "enough".
The problem is, I'm not sure if it's as simple as that.
Part of the problem is that the financial markets are not working as they are supposed to. They are supposed to bring excess capital and entrepreneurs together so that any excess value can be used to improve society.
However, in 2016 it was estimated that 85% of money in the financial markets was circulating in a closed loop (and there's no reason to think that percentage isn't even higher today). This money is traded back and forth and people who were able to figure out the best way to game the system were gaining a few percent every year. Being able to pay for more privileged access also helps.
No doubt many of us on here have money in pensions or invested in the stock market. This money is not being funneled to entrepreneurs to improve society. It is simply going round the loop and we are hoping that whoever is in charge of our money is at least able to keep up.
We're are actively paying into the system that is making us and everyone else in society poorer.
I really don't know what the solution is which is the scary part. One thing I do know is that talk of MMT is simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
That ^^ would be funnier if Reform hadn't led in the last 43 consecutive national opinion polls since mid-April
I really don't know what the solution is which is the scary part.
A financial transactions tax would be good start. Encourage longer term investment instead of short term trading. We could also easily regulate the pensions industry to enforce less risky and longer term investments.
I’ll say it again though, the simplest and most effective way to redistribute wealth from the top to the bottom is wealth taxes. Tax wealth not work.
We could also easily regulate the pensions industry to enforce less risky and longer term investments
Afaics my pension is a pretty basic 60/40 split equities/bonds, which seems to be what Missy consider a sensible balance? I'm not aware of any great scandal of a pension fund going down due to risky investments? Company fiunds being plundered, yes.
I'm not aware of any great scandal of a pension fund going down due to risky investments?
It's not really the point Bruce was making. He's saying the finance industry basically recycles investors/pensioners money, extracting a percentage each time making bankers/traders very rich in the process. He's absolutely right that the finance industry and financial markets are organised to enable banks and financial companies to extract rent from people's savings, and MMT doesn't address that (nor is it intended to). The risk in an MMT world as we saw during covid and post-2008 is that lots of the money created by govt to prop up the economy or stimulate growth ends up in the pockets of bond investors and bankers in the city.
Double post silliness!
The problem is, I'm not sure if it's as simple as that.
If the political will is there it is that simple. Make the requirements enforceable/strict liability and the penalties not worth the game. That would mean mandatory prison time and disqualification for those stepping outside the rules, as fines are considered a cost of business.
And the government has admitted that it is currently training IDF personnel in the UK as it commits genocide in Gaza
And now committing to “defend” Israel if Iran should have the impertinence to defend itself.
My hope is that Farage and reform will destroy our current two party system. Both Labour and the Conservatives are antiquated parties of the 20th century and are no longer fit for purpose. The tories are already on the floor bleeding out and need curb stomping into oblivion, Labour seem to be doing their best to follow them and I'm all for it.
The push and pull between left and right is what makes democracy work and neither party is doing their job. It's time to clear away the old dead wood and let new shoots grow. The time of political revolution is here and it's not without its dangers but we either roll the dice or carry on as we are and be destroyed.
My hope is that Farage and reform will destroy our current two party system
if you think farage whos been a former stockbroker career politician for 30 odd years and is currently on his 4th? political party
who has been caught defrauding the taxpayer, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42669293
and stashing his £££ offshore
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-23001529
and caught lying numerous times , https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/seb-dance/nigel-farage-seb-dance_b_14591852.html
when he was an MEP never bothered to turn up and vote for things he claimed to care about
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/ukip-leader-nigel-farage-worst-8302679
and even as an MP has been on 4 holidays this year alone and accepted ££££ from '2nd jobs' whilst barely turning up to his constituency or parliament
......is going to be the answer, then you are a spectacularly gullible and naive person billabong
No I think the criticism of Farage is entirely justified but if he's able to obliterate our two main parties he'll have done all of us a good service. It seems to me that in my lifetime neither left or right leaning people have felt well represented by the parties that should represent them and this needs to change.
Destruction can be fun to talk about. But what does it mean? Who will it put in power? What will that mean for the normal people that live here?
There is a good case, potentially, for Labour and the Tories getting a good kick up the arse but is Farage and Reform the right person and movement to do so? I really don't think they are.
Numerous reasons but the slavish adoption of DOGE and Reforms equally poor Musk like (even worst than Musk in fact) implementation tells me that they have anything new to offer.
I still think we will have to endure a Reform government at some point though. Their supporters need to see the lie in action.
Good help us all.
Always surprises me to hear people parrot "we need more businessmen/women involved in politics". When every time, without fail, they abolish/water down regulations and laws that hinder them making even more money and give them and their ilk as many tax breaks and handouts from the public purse as they can get away with. All whilst talking a load of bollocks to divert attention away and/or being seen to solve inconsequential things.
Watching politicians tack things onto law changes, that no one asked for is another ****s trick.
My hope is that Farage and reform will destroy our current two party system.
Depressing to see that the "I don't trust any of them, any change would be better" myth around Farage still has some adherents.
The notion that Farage is a disrupter in any meaningful way is laughable. He's not a positive force for change. He's a cancer.
Always surprises me to hear people parrot "we need more businessmen/women involved in politics". When every time, without fail, they abolish/water down regulations and laws that hinder them making even more money and give them and their ilk as many tax breaks and handouts from the public purse as they can get away with.#
Yes, not said enough.
Running essential utilities etc like we have done delivers the results we have.
Regulations are often pointless in this domain because you regulate them that much (and they will take the fines) that they may as well simply be under public control/owned delivering for public purpose. They know the game.
This country especially under Starmer shows an embarrassing lack of pragmatism whilst dressed up to be pragamatic - but one inch of scrutiny would demonstrate this not be the case.
The aim is alway to keep the neoliberal construct in place no matter the failures and the poor outcomes - and then to believe it could be just done better - somehow, whilst selling to the centre right that we can't afford to do it. With many things in life we can't afford not to.
The notion that Farage is a disrupter in any meaningful way is laughable.
Well many personally credit Farage with the UK leaving the EU. And the last 50 opinion polls have placed Reform UK in the lead, a totally unprecedented position for a third party in the UK. Plus a year ago the Tory Party suffered their worst election defeat in 200 years, something which can be fairly attributed to Reform UK.
I reckon that Nigel Farage can be reasonably described as "a disrupter" even if he didn't create the conditions which he is now successfully exploiting.
The notion that Farage is a disrupter in any meaningful way is laughable. He's not a positive force for change. He's a cancer.
He's been around a long time now "influencing" politics in the UK, and nothing he has done has had a positive effect on the other parties or the wider political landscape. He's just dragged everyone down to his own gutter level and is beating them with experience
Their supporters need to see the lie in action.
Without a doubt but they will just blame something else for any mess.
The best solution is to redefine narratives and put fixes in place - proper life-changing fixes that people then won't vote for garbage.
He's just dragged everyone down to his own gutter level and is beating them with experience
This. If everyone truly believes the battle for elections is won from the 'right' then what do we expect? Lots of right-wing parties all broadly offering the same messed up ideology with each one claiming they know how to solve things with more efficiency.
Been there, done that. It's failed.
You got to go the other way - and create things that people feel change their outlook.
I meant disrupter in the positive sense of the word. Not the snake oil salesman sense.
I fear that Labour seemingly refusing to implement any sort of sane proportional representation before the next GE around 2029 is going to terminally bite them in the behind.
FPTP is such a horrible system in this modern age and the way things seem to be heading, next time around it could worryingly be a Reform landslide.
FPTP is such a horrible system in this modern age and the way things seem to be heading, next time around it could worryingly be a Reform landslide.
While I agree FPTP is fundamentally flawed, I hate the idea of PR making Farage the kingmaker in a coalition.
Rock and hard place
FPTP may not be great, but it is political financing that is a far bigger problem. Fix the funding of politics to take out the oligarchy first as the big change that would have a long lasting impact, PR second as it will only really make an impact if the distorting effect of the wealthy buying politics before we get to vote is fixed already, replace the HOL with an elected chamber as the third priority (I don't think it will make much difference in reality but it is a symbolic change) prioritising HOL reform is a charade of change that has very little real world impact but allows labour to pretend they tried (kind of like the farm inheritance tax change, **** all difference in taxation to the wealthy but allows labour and the Starmer disciples to pretend there is mass resistance to taxing the wealthy).
it is political financing that is a far bigger problem. Fix the funding of politics to take out the oligarchy first as the big change that would have a long lasting impact,
Very true.
but it is political financing that is a far bigger problem. Fix the funding of politics to take out the oligarchy first as the big change that would have a long lasting impact,
Also agree but who is proposing that they would change/limit funding - no party I can see is going to bite the hand that feeds.
When the unions were major funders of the LP before big business stepped in, the PLP still tried to introduce 'In Place of Strife' which sought to tie the hands of the unions. Parliamentary parties are just slightly differently coloured aspects of the status quo.
While I agree FPTP is fundamentally flawed, I hate the idea of PR making Farage the kingmaker in a coalition.
Rock and hard place
The electorate at large hardly have clean hands in all this, either.
You can only excuse voting along the lines of bigotry for so long.
🤷♂️
I see there’s a list of 364 MP’s on FB (including many women) who voted against a National Inquiry into the child exploitation and grooming that is currently all over the news.
Assuming the list is real, why on earth would anyone not want this looked into?
While I agree FPTP is fundamentally flawed, I hate the idea of PR making Farage the kingmaker in a coalition.
Rock and hard place
Think of it as a vaccine.
The far right have gotten into coalition governments in several places in Europe over the last few years. Mostly that's resulted in them losing popularity once people realise, 'Actually, turns out it's a bit more complicated than they said.'
I'd rather have Reform as a junior coalition partner for 3 years (can't see them lasting in a coalition for an entire term) than see them have a 100 seat majority for 5 years.
Assuming the list is real, why on earth would anyone not want this looked into?
I guess it could depend what pressure was applied to them from head office. I am afraid many/most of our current representatives are incapable of doing the right thing, they are just career politicians doing what they are told hoping to climb the ladder, basically corporate middle management level thinkers.
Some could also worry that the exploitation of the findings to promote racism could do more damage than good.
But IMO it is more likely to be the former than the latter
Assuming the list is real, why on earth would anyone not want this looked into?
Because the inquiry has already been done. And the current level of whatever grooming/exploitation is going on would be far lower if successive governments had implemented the recommendations of the initial ****ing inquiry. If the recommendations are implemented in full, and there are more cases, then yes - an inquiry is worthwhile because it highlights loopholes that may not have been apparent at the time.
You can have as many inquiries as you like. If you don't take the necessary actions that arise, all you do is keep having the same old inquiry. Politically, of course, you can keep the pot boiling if it serves your purposes to do so.
Assuming the list is real, why on earth would anyone not want this looked into?
This was a Tory amendment, and Labour effectively said, 'there's been enough enquiries and it needs sorting out, besides which locally run inquiries [if they're needed] are faster, more cost effective and equally good at implementing changes'. Plus the amendment contained challenges to the additional protection being considered to home schooled children and changes to the way academies are run, which the Tories don't want. The last inquiry into child abuse finished in 2022 and lasted 7 years.
Grenfell Towers still dragging on.
The Post Office Scandal still dragging on.
This abuse scandal..... ditto.
Does anything ever actually get resolved?
Does anything ever actually get resolved?
I recall that VIP Lane covid contracts for the likes of Michelle Mone went through pretty damn quick.
Honours lists for cronies don't seem to get bogged down in endless red tape either.
🤔
Grenfell Towers still dragging on.
The Post Office Scandal still dragging on.
This abuse scandal..... ditto.
Does anything ever actually get resolved?
Not without the political will to fund and resource the solutions properly - which may have a 2-3 year lead time if it requires people to be suitably qualified eg social workers for child protection.
Though it's a bit rich for the Tories to be accusing the current government of dragging its feet, given their record of foot dragging for 14 years
Though it's a bit rich for the Tories to be accusing the current government of dragging its feet, given their record of foot dragging for 14 years
Paul Bland was talking to Badenoch where she was slagging off Labour for not doing something. He then asked her why the tory government hadn't done anything about it for 14 years and her response was "Well, we didn't get everything right" - I think she must have meant to say Anything rather than Everything but then she is in another reality I suppose.
Caught the back end of stream saying Labour had dropped to 3rd place in one poll.
Can't find it.
Total mess. I guess the confused/bullshit Labour position on just about everything isn't working out.
Caught the back end of stream saying Labour had dropped to 3rd place in one poll.
Can't find it.
Total mess. I guess the confused/bullshit Labour position on just about everything isn't working out.
I saw something about that on another forum, think it was a GB News tweet? This was followed up with some else suggesting it was an outlier as the Tories are tanking even worse than Labour in all the other polls.