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Making this an annual summit was quite canny too
Interesting detail I’d missed. Thanks.
Building a new relationship is a long slow iterative process. One that will be soundtracked by the sellers of imaginary quick fixes shouting negative soundbites all along the way.
It was the deep sea fisherman that wanted Brexit - ironically this 'new' deal is pretty-well a roll-over of the one negotiated by the Tories but you want read/hear that in most of the media. The vast majority of the fish consumed in the UK is imported from Iceland and Russia as it doesn't exist in UK waters.
The ones that have been suffering are the inshore fisherman who predominantly catch shellfish which has seen a significant reduction in exports. That said, the local ones here are quite happy for non-local trawlers to fish in a Marine Protected Area thus devastating the stocks, so F***-em I say.
The whole thing shrinks into insignificance when you consider that Games Workshop contribution to the UK economy is bigger than the whole seafood sector.
People aren't gullible
So how did 52% of us vote to make ourselves worse off - financially, politically and culturally?
The Remain campaign went to a lot of trouble enunciating the benefits of EU membership in a fairly detailed pamphlet, I remember.
But they were defeated by three word slogans, bullshit promises that never stood up to scrutiny and some racist/xenophobic scaremongering.
I suppose it's inevitable to at least end up back in the CU and SM
Not if we let Faragism take over.
@Dovebiker I agree with you about the inshore fishermen it's a pity that their voice was always drowned out (no pun intended) during the Brexit referendum. I have not much sympathy for Sir Ian Wood and the other deep sea fishing corporation owners.
I don't agree that loss of jobs along the Moray /Fraserburgh coast on deep sea boats is insignificant though
My last long post on this thread ended with the idea that what Starmer should be concentrating on is increasing and improving the housing stock. In Strasbourg we had a walk around this place:
https://sers.eu/realisations/zac-danube-strasbourg/
And in the Guardian today there's this:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2025/may/19/paris-eco-district-pictures
In Brum I had a look at some of the new projects and shook my head in dismay, has nothing been learned from the brutalist period?
So how can Mr Starmer be persuaded to provide incentives and a legislative framework for new districts with trams, services, parcs, energy efficient buildings, greenery and a reasonable quality of life?
Ll accidentally reposted
So how can Mr Starmer be persuaded to provide incentives and a legislative framework for new districts with trams, services, parcs, energy efficient buildings, greenery and a reasonable quality of life?
That sounds like socialism to me, and we're not very good at that in the UK.
It's our god-given right to be ripped off from all angles by the private sector because...
Socialism is bad. Apparently.
I suppose it's inevitable to at least end up back in the CU and SM
Not if we let Faragism take over.
True, it would have to defy all logic... but then people seem to be happy to vote to hurt themselves as long as they get the correct amount of smoke blown up their bottoms, egos stroked the right way, etc...
I mean just look at trump in the USA... the guy is a convicted sex offender and financial fraudster... has somehow avoided jail through pure corruption, yet people vote for him because occasionally he says something they agree with, like the price of eggs should be cheaper or whatever...
And then they will wonder why... and then blame small boats or something...I mean that's absolutley the definition of stupidity...but there are still people on here who insist the hatchet job that was brexit is now irreversible, it's done, get over it, etc.
We have a general election to replace the government every 4 years... why can't we have another election to decide whether brexit was a good idea or not? *a legal one this time...
That's going to have far more impact on our society than whether we have a center left or center right government.
Are we back to politics started in 2016?
Sigh.
Socialism is bad. Apparently.
Wait until most people realise they've barely had a hint of socialism in their lifetime and the majority of the shit being dumped on the economy now is a consequence of Labour and Conservative running disastrous Neoliberal policies. Often with zero framework or analysis. Read - interest rates a policy to control inflation.
Everyone's a capitalist until they can't afford it.
I can't even find a private dentist I trust in the UK, never mind an NHS one 🤣
This is the real problem, and that won't be solved trivial solutions, and it isn't just the UK it is the whole of the western world, we have been living under an oligarchy for at least a couple of decades, and are rapidly moving towards kleptocracy. US billionaires are leading the way, and the rest of the world is following.
And yet they get away with non-dom status despite sitting in the House of Lords and owning an estate in the UK. And have most of their money stashed away in trusts and complex financial structures that the City specialises in so they pay **** all tax.
snip....
Watch this.. the entire global finance system is rigged.... US billionaires are not leading the way, they are just the ones in the spotlight at the moment.
And no, I don't know how it can ever be fixed without a global government to controll such hings, which brings its own obvious risks to make tings even worse.
The problem is humans are inherently selfish, so good luck trying to get global consensus.
Give this a watch:
stupid forum double/triple post... the last one was only edtited for typos.
snip....
Watch this.. the entire global finance system is rigged.... US billionaires are not leading the way, they are just the ones in the spotlight at the moment.
And no, I don't know how it can ever be fixed without a global government to controll such things, which brings its own obvious risks to make tings even worse.
The problem is humans are inherently selfish, so good luck trying to get global consensus.
Give this a watch:
Humans are generally generous to people in their 'in' group and hostile to those in their 'out' group. The difference is how big your groups are and who's in them and why.
Starmer’s EU reset triggers outbreak of Brexit derangement syndrome | John Crace https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/19/starmers-eu-reset-triggers-outbreak-of-brexit-derangement-syndrome?CMP=share_btn_url
Don't know that will work. Fairly standard John Crace fare, but on point as usual.
And to think Hannan and Frost were both made peers for their heroic deeds.
🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
🤣🤣🤣
Brexit derangement syndrome.. thats brilliant 🤣 👍
if you want to see brext derranegment syndrome you only have to look at the front pages of the rw press today!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czr88myp570o
Id genuinely forgotten how much they were willing to lie about the EU & Brexit, whats remarkable is that millions believe them!
The extreme - deranged if you like - right wing response to limited deal is unsurprising but actually useful.
They have nowhere to go in terms of ramping up the rhetoric if future deals go further. When they kick off people will just think - here goes Farage/Badenoch again - blah blah - nothing bad happened last time.
As I said further up the thread it creates space for Labour to get more breadth to the deal over time whilst the right try to out do each other on Brexit orthodoxy
Let's hope the government take the opportunity
sorry wrong link above! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2e7z72r0eo
It's good to see them finally speaking out about Isreal as well - I think this will be an interesting time for a government - some abhorrent unforgivable things, & some actual good things.
Won't be enough to keep them in power. But who knows where we'll be in 4 years.
It's good to see them finally speaking out about Isreal as well - I think this will be an interesting time for a government - some abhorrent unforgivable things, & some actual good things.
yes I was thinking that, probably for the gaza thread but it seems to be spiraling further, the government really should be taking a stand, though ultimately Netenyahu will do whatever he wants regardless, its only USA that can really influence & trump is too busy being bribed by the gulf states
Israel is nuclear armed and a US client.
Anyone else's approach seems to be calibrated to reach supposed breaking point about five minutes after the last Palestinian leaves Gaza - either on foot or in a body bag.
The whole thing shrinks into insignificance when you consider that Games Workshop contribution to the UK economy is bigger than the whole seafood sector.
Its truely insane when you look at it from that perspective but Boats, it’s always the least insignificant stuff that seems to be heavily focused on and turned into one of the main reasons that a bunch of eu haters can bang on about.
In of it,out of it the EU and the unelected bureaucrats are still being used as one of the bogey men, and so returns Boris as the gravy train wheels start to slowly turn again and off we go on the ‘Giving up Brexit benefits’ those magical things that only get mentioned when they are er threatened and seem to have evaded everyone at any other time.
It’s hard to think that Brexit vote was 10 years ago and still we are having it used, I reckon in another 10 years they can roll it out again and go the other way and rejoin,it’s been a brilliant mcGuffin for a few people, like Farage and Johnson and tbh anyone whose been a Tory PM or MP even , without it they wouldn’t have had the opportunity to stuff at the trough.
and so returns Boris
Oh, has that particular turd bobbed back to the surface?
I'm surprised he can be bothered. He already got everything he wanted out of the original Brexit con. He must be doing a (paid) favour for someone.
I'm surprised he can be bothered. He already got everything he wanted out of the original Brexit con.
He left government as a failure. That has to hurt his ego and combined with how Churchill returned triumphant I suspect he does still have some fantasies along those lines. Guess it depends how much he has managed to grift so far..
It’s hard to think that Brexit vote was 10 years ago and still we are having it used
It will always be used until the UK governments take action on wealth distribution and the cost of living crisis. In or out of the EU if they don't do that then they will always need the convenient dead cat of the EU and immigration.
It will always be used until the UK governments take action on wealth distribution and the cost of living crisis.
Absolutely. Life was hardly a bed of roses whilst being in the EU for many irrespective.
Forgotten due to the noises made by the you-made-my-ski-trip-harder mob. (And yes I count myself in that group.)
God I hate that kind of inverse snobbery. Millions of us in lower paid households understand the negative effects of Brexit, it’s not just the skiing and caviar brigade… most of whom won’t be feeling the effects at all. Brexit made it more expensive to be poor, and removed rights from the working class that those with the means can always find a way to pay their way around.
Brexit: the 'gift' that just keeps giving! 😣
God I hate that kind of inverse snobbery. Millions of us in lower paid households understand the negative effects of Brexit, it’s not just the skiing and caviar brigade… most of whom won’t be feeling the effects at all. Brexit made it more expensive to be poor, and removed rights from the working class that those with the means can always find a way to pay their way around.
Well said, never earned over £15k and spent most of life on disability benefits yet I knew Brexit was an utter **** ing stupidity ignorant idea
It will always be used until the UK governments take action on wealth distribution and the cost of living crisis.
Absolutely. Life was hardly a bed of roses whilst being in the EU for many irrespective.
Forgotten due to the noises made by the you-made-my-ski-trip-harder mob. (And yes I count myself in that group.)
True, but now we don't even have the pretty flowers and petals, we just have the left over thorns and rotten stems.
Well played. 🙄
Beginning of the end for Starmer/Reeves?
Whilst I don't mind a u-turn on some things, this has been such a hash, and clearly a reaction to polling - recent results etc. This is too little too late and looks like they've done it for cynical reasons. The press will hammer them. This WFA move was absolutely ridiculous from the outset. Terrible politics and economics. All for a mystical 1.4bn which now becomes less I'm guessing.
The logical economic rule is to make things better first then tax back later. That follows exactly how the procedure of monetary operations is laid out and works well politically.
Inflation up - unsurprisingly. (We all knew this was coming with energy rises.) yet they were telling everyone how it was coming down last week. They really can't tip toe in and out of inflation - pretending they're responsible when it suits
Battle with Streeting and Rayner?
Starmer is damaged goods and is not coming back from all of this. (reshuffle first perhaps?)
All that said leaders have a knack of hanging on don't they!
The good news is if they get shut now and recalibrate their priorities maybe they could still get on with the job. It would require some serious political calculations and investment. And the ability to block out all noise about spending.
Improve people's living standards asap.
One final thing - at this point they've got nothing to lose with the looks of it.
Brexit: the 'gift' that just keeps giving! 😣
FTFY:
Brexit: the 'grift' that just keeps giving! 😣
Improve people's living standards asap.
Absolutely. But hand outs to well off pensioners shouldn’t be at the top of anyone’s priority. If WFA becomes universal again, I hope they look at increasing taxation on those pensioners that can easily afford to pay more.
The good news is if they get shut now and recalibrate their priorities maybe they could still get on with the job.
Undoubtedly they could but it won't happen imo. The Labour Party has been changing ever since the days of New Labour and that change accelerated during the last five years under Keir Starmer's leadership.
I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Labour Party, and the wider party establishment, are now even more hostile to a social-democratic alternative to the Tory-Labour-LibDem neoliberal consensus than they were under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.
Sure there are a few remaining social-democratic Labour MPs such John McDonnell who haven't been weeded out yet but they have no influence in the direction of the party. Corbyn's successful leadership bid was entirely due to the party membership and in the face of staunch opposition from the PLP, that party membership has also now dramatically changed since the centrists seized power.
I fear that the Labour Party will simply just repeat the same mistakes as the Tories and fall into the trap of believing that changing the leader without changing the political direction in any significant way will save them from electoral armageddon. Or at least they will do that because they can't think of palatable alternative.
Keir Starmer might lack the charisma and connection with ordinary working people but that isn't the primary problem, that is the economic model which all four major political parties are welded to. Next it will be Reform's turn to take to the stage and have a go at making austerity/neoliberalism work.
Yes that is the trajectory.
You think Starmer and Reeves will last?
Keir Starmer might lack the charisma and connection with ordinary working people but that isn't the primary problem, that is the economic model which all four major political parties are welded to. Next it will be Reform's turn to take to the stage and have a go at making austerity/neoliberalism work
I think it goes beyond that - Starmer is liked by whom? His popularity is shocking.
Your latter comment i couldn't agree more. We are stuck in a failed economic system. I can see that probably more than most.
(Also bear in mind that Trump is very much moving their economic model sideways and possibly backwards of you think imports are ner gain. Point is things don't stay the same forever.)
If WFA becomes universal again, I hope they look at increasing taxation on those pensioners that can easily afford to pay more.
Better than that, just raise capital gains tax to the same levels as income tax, the right wing love "hard working families" so why not create a balanced system so that wealth from assets are taxed at the same rate as wealth from "hard work". No need to focus on age groups, those wealthy pensioners will be taxed without the easy excuse of age discrimination.
Absolutely. But hand outs to well off pensioners shouldn’t be at the top of anyone’s priority. If WFA becomes universal again, I hope they look at increasing taxation on those pensioners that can easily afford to pay more.
It's a barely an economic relevance in terms of revenue if even you accept tax and spend. (Which I don't as you know.)
It's a trapping of economic frustration to believe that 1.4bn will make a sod of difference compared the noise it created.
Can I also point out that removing money from pensionsers is a removal of money from the economy. The exact opposite thing to do if you want growth.
So mechanically there is an argument to chase well off people who have too much stuff. Targeting pensioners alone is totally defeating.
Especially if we all want a good life as we get older.
Probably best not to think it as a hand-out and more as subsidy to a group of potentially vulnerable people. It's also an inflation hedge to people who don't have the capacity to earn money as easily as working people.
Wrong group of people, wrong policy and not worth the effort for an opener.
Some of us have to grit our teeth as certain cohorts might benefit - that we don't like as long as the overall picture is to reduce inequality and improve lives. 1.4bn won't do that.
A much bigger picture is needed and I'm not excluding taxation from that as you alluded to - somewhere along the way.
The trick is to seperate taxation from spending. Taxation as a means to limit consumption/resources/redistribute where its needed and spending to target the areas that need money.
The Labour right have already shown they'd prefer a Tory government to an eg Corbyn government. However, there must be quite a few backbenchers who don't want their careers terminated by a dimwitted neoliberal who can't resist a freebie. If the current leadership have guaranteed electoral failure, there's no harm in giving another lot a chance just in case. Rayner seems to have been silenced and is tellingly distancing herself from the leadership. Even if there were to be a party coup, enough austerity damage would have been done to make it very difficult to turn it around and improve the picture by the next election. It's almost as if Starmer is doing a Johnson.
Quite.
I'm zoning in on that leaked memo where Rayner called for tax rises.
Even if there were to be a party coup, enough austerity damage would have been done to make it very difficult to turn it around and improve the picture by the next election.
I think if people saw hope they could at least fend off Reform to a degree.
There's nothing to lose really as I see it.
It will take years to make a dent for sure.
wealth from assets are taxed at the same rate as wealth from "hard work".
One of the changes in France I've very much approved of despite it costing a bit more tax. It's very unfair when income that requires selling ones life, travelling to work etc. gets taxed less than investment income whether rental income, ISAs, shares, bitcoin or whatever. It sould incur NI payment too. (CSG in France)
As for WFA I'd find it outrageous if I became eleligble for it next year when I officially retire. Not being elegible for pension credits as a test seems very reasonable to me.
I filled in my tax declaration yesterday, even in what CNBC commentators used to refer to as 'socialist land' I don't feel I'm paying enough tax, however before junior left home I felt I was paying as much as I could afford. It strikes me that the tax system hits young people with no wealth too hard especially if they have children, and people of my age and wealth not hard enough. Following relatives in the uK it's more extreme - some of the younger ones are delaying having kids till they can afford it whereas the older ones are considering which expensive toy to buy, holiday to go on or property to invest in. I believe in vertical solidarity in families so will hand over the money I think I should be paying in tax to junior.