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Labour is more than capable of inflicting a 'profound situation' via its planned programme of austerity and historically more strikes occur under Labour governments. A new party might make some MPs look left in the same way some have been pressured into changing their position over Palestine. That in itself would be a positive outcome.
The country 100% doesn't need 5yrs of Reform - the damage they could do would be irreversible for decades.
Like they already did in 2016?
The country 100% doesn't need 5yrs of Reform - the damage they could do would be irreversible for decades.
Liberals, Labour and Green Party need an alliance. We don't need a 4th 'populist' left-wing party splitting the vote even more.
We'd be in desperate straits with a Reform government.
I can see a LibDem/Green alliance being popular. The current Labour government is no longer on the left, sadly, I'm not sure they'd join it, or be allowed to.
As others have said, tragic for the country that Labour have betrayed their roots with so much time and opportunity with that majority.
When have LibDems ever been considered "on the left" ?
Liberals, Labour and Green Party need an alliance. We don't need a 4th 'populist' left-wing party splitting the vote even more.
Labour and the lib dems are not left wing parties, let them continue to split the right wing vote. Give the rest of us who haven't followed labour to the far right someone to vote for.
And frankly even suggesting that a new left wing party would be populist is the kind of right wing gutter press language that has helped create the right wing establishment we now have to suffer.
Why invent imaginary monsters to be scared of, when we are getting ****ed over by real people with hateful mindsets.
So picking through the crumbs of optimism any chance of some backbenchers really kicking off at some point?
Is there a scenerio where Starmer goes too far for them as polls look grim?
There is still plenty of time for some sort of fall-out surely. It's often difficult to spot things coming and leaders can hang on in there can't they?
Anyone got a plausible Starmer-out scenario?
Whether the UK "needs" a Reform government isn't the issue here. The issue is that it looks evermore likely, thanks to Starmer, that they will be in the next government, whatever we might want.
And to talk of "Liberals, Labour and Green Party" forming an alliance to counter the Reform-Tory axis seems to be based on wishful thinking that such an alliance would be social democratic when the evidence is actually far from convincing.
Firstly the Labour Party is not a left-wing social democratic party, indeed the current leadership hates the left and has done everything it can possibly do to expel any with such leanings or in some way silence them.
Today the Labour Party is far far closer politically to the Conservative Party than it is to the Green Party, the evidence is staring straight at us, how can that possibly be the basis for a working and governing alliance?
And secondly the LibDems have proved that when push comes to shove they too are not a left-wing social democratic party. They very enthusiastically went into coalition with the Tories to govern and implement a right-wing austerity programme the consequences of which we are still paying the price.
Over the years on STW I have heard the endless accusations (some of it very accurate but not all) of Nigel Farage and his various political parties being anti-immigration racists, the Tories of been anti-immigration racists, red wall voters of being anti-immigration racists, and Brexit supporters of been anti-immigration racists, the consensus seems overwhelming.
Then a couple of days ago the leader of the Labour Party publicly declared that immigration had done "incalculable damage" to the UK, and that's after a load of dog-whistling bollocks, and yet the reaction from some on here is "yeah, well, whatever".
If my understanding is correct it's not Starmer's fault that he has become a racist, it's Nigel Farage's fault, or tabloid newspapers, or red wall voters, but definitely not Starmer's fault, so we should carry on supporting Labour.
My question is should we all become racists now? Only I am quite busy with other stuff.
The country 100% doesn't need 5yrs of Reform
If you hadn't noticed it looks like we already have it. Coming soon from Nigel Starmer, abolition of speed limits, banning of cycling on public roads, muslims to wear crescent badges on their sleeves, no taxes on fags and booze etc...
Then a couple of days ago the leader of the Labour Party publicly declared that immigration had done "incalculable damage" to the UK, and that's after a load of dog-whistling bollocks, and yet the reaction from some on here is "yeah, well, whatever".
Never underestimate the hoop-jumping that will be made to justify Starmer-logic.
This is has been a thing from day one. When Starmer says something that we find dubious we've had a string of 'long-game, 4D chess, master tactician, grown-up' responses when in fact we are just at the emperor's new clothes terriorty.
Just about every middling liberal commentator has now decided Starmer is a wrong-un (Toynbee still hanging on in there) - expect the 'yeah what-ever' group to follow that consensus. They won't learn though - it will be Yvette Cooper next please. She's a proper grown-up.
it's not Starmer's fault that he has become a racist
This kind of hyperbole does no-one any favours. You don't 'become' a racist. He's chosen xenophobic policies to pander to the right wing, but that's not the same thing as actually morphing your personal core values.
He has absolutely ****ed it up though, for sure.
Never underestimate the hoop-jumping that will be made to justify Starmer-logic.
Within 3 posts.
@molgrips how would you describe Enoch Powell? Echoing his rehetoric in a speech on immigration puts Starmer in the same camp as him, a dog whistling opportunist.
I've just sat with a colleague who is in tears over his speech and the proposed policies. I'm sure this will have been covered on previous pages but I'm too fed up with the government to trawl over it and look. How does cutting off care support workers help? We'll all end up paying more to look after the elderly, and maybe we should be doing, but cutting off a supply of workers before having the means to make the care system continue?
Also, the housing target? Skilled workers in construction, and other less glamorous industries, are had to find thanks to the B word. How does making a plumber, spark, brickie from abroad require a degree work? Construction is already struggling outside of Scotland due to the Building Safety Act being poorly administered, once projects stumble through that there will be no one to build them.
To make changes to immigration policy requires internal policies in place to make pay and conditions worthwhile for your general populace to do the work, and training people. I see no evidence that either of these are being prioritised ahead of dangerous rehetoric that will make all our lives less secure.
Labour can **** right off, as a previous wait and see type, they've thoroughly pissed on their chips. They are a nasty bunch of career politicos that frankly do nothing for the country. Coming after the weakest members of society is just low. Welcome to the 51st state....
How does cutting off care support workers help? We'll all end up paying more to look after the elderly, and maybe we should be doing, but cutting off a supply of workers before having the means to make the care system continue?
Well they can stay in hospital and be cared for by nurses. Oh. Hang on a moment. There are 30,000 nursing vacancies but nurse recruitment is frozen across the country due to hospital budget crises. Let me think ...
Then a couple of days ago the leader of the Labour Party publicly declared that immigration had done "incalculable damage" to the UK, and that's after a load of dog-whistling bollocks, and yet the reaction from some on here is "yeah, well, whatever".
Not from me. I think he's a **** for what he said. It matters not one jot whether he personally believes it.
Nigel Starmer
Leave former Harlequins and England players, and doyens of Rugby Special out of it.
So then...
Labour can **** right off
Liberals can **** right off
Tories can **** right off
Reform can **** right off
...that leaves - err The Green Party.
Is it any wonder we have to vote for the least-worst option that could form a government!? Which in my case is still Labour.
Labour can **** right off, as a previous wait and see type, they've thoroughly pissed on their chips. They are a nasty bunch of career politicos that frankly do nothing for the country.
100%.
You don't 'become' a racist.
Well according to a fair few on here "traditional Labour" voters became racists quite recently, unless you consider that the Labour Party has always traditionally been a racist party?
And using that same logic Enoch Powell was never a racist then because until his Rivers of Blood speech he never had any real form on race, which is one of the reasons why many found his speech particularly shocking.
Indeed Enoch Powell was considered by many to represent the more humanitarian face of conservatism. There is a reason why Ted Heath, who was basically a postwar-consensus social democrat, had Enoch Powell in his Shadow Cabinet, until the Rivers of Blood speech. Enoch Powell welcomed with open arms thousands of immigrant doctors and nurses into the UK between 1960-63 when he was Secretary of State for Health.
Enoch Powell became a racist because it suited his personal agenda at the time. His political career had peaked and he had failed in his ambitions to become Prime Minister or the last Viceroy of India, the bruised ego of a narcissist needed to bask in the limelight.
In that respect it worked, opinion polls showed that 74% of the public agreed with the main thrust of his Rivers of Blood speech and London dockers and Smithfield porters, all Labour supporters to the man, demonstrated in support of Enoch Powell. However it simply accelerated his political demise and he spent his final years a lonely man sulking on the Ulster Unionist benches.
Anyone who uses racist rhetoric to instill fear into voters with talk of strangers in their own land, or an island of strangers, or the incalculable damage of immigration, in a desperate attempt to shore up their failing political career, be it Enoch Powell, Nigel Farage, or Keir Starmer, is a racist.
To claim that they are merely doing it for pragmatic reasons and therefore not racists, as appears to be suggested, is bollocks.
I have no issues with effective immigration controls, I have no issues with a zero net migration target. I do though have a serious issue with racist rhetoric and language which is designed to instill fear, division, and hatred, and not least under the present conditions of growing international hatred against immigrants and those seeking asylum.
Starmer should be deeply ashamed of his speech but of course he won't be because like Enoch Powell he will bask in all the attention it has given him. The stronger the reaction from liberals and lefties the more Starmer will relish it....he is extraordinarily proud of pissing them off
Is it any wonder we have to vote for the least-worst option that could form a government!? Which in my case is still Labour.
And that will always be the case, until we start voting for what we believe in. The only way to send a message about the direction we want the country to travel is to vote for the party closest to our political instincts, voting green is the only currently realistic vote for me.
Voting for this labour will continue the drift ever rightwards, and the cruel stranglehold that the right wing establishment have over our lives, we have to break the cycle and ignore the pretend centrists fear mongering.
Well according to a fair few on here "traditional Labour" voters became racists quite recently
No, they started supporting racist (actually xenophobic but it doesn't sound as good, does it?) policies, but they've always had latent xenophobia, it's just been legimitised, which is the problem with right wing populism isn't it?
Incidentally, do we think Starmer had the good grace to drop the likes of Sadiq Khan a WhatsApp to let him know he'd be delivering a speech where he would say immigration had done incalculable damage to the UK?
Something along the lines of:
"Hey mate, just to let you know, I'll be doing a speech comparable to Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech tomorrow. Obvs I'll be doing it with my fingers crossed behind my back (honestly, you CAN trust me), but you might want to avoid your email for a few days... OK mate? How are the wife and kids, BTW?"
For ****'s sake.
No, they started supporting racist (actually xenophobic but it doesn't sound as good, does it?) policies, but they've always had latent xenophobia, it's just been legimitised, which is the problem with right wing populism isn't it?
It is.
But then it becomes a whole different level of problem when it is further legitimised by the Labour Party.
Well according to a fair few on here "traditional Labour" voters became racists quite recently, unless you consider that the Labour Party has always traditionally been a racist party?
You could probably argue that the 'traditional Labour voter' of the post war era - the northern working men of the Miners Welfares and Social Clubs - were always racist and Labour are reverting to type. With the non-racist era being a blip.
How long did this blip last?
Was the Labour government which made racism illegal in the UK inside this blip?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancashire_Cotton_Famine
On 31 December 1862, a meeting of cotton workers at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester, despite their increasing hardship, resolved to support the Union in its fight against slavery. An extract from the letter they wrote in the name of the Working People of Manchester to His Excellency Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America says:
... the vast progress which you have made in the short space of twenty months fills us with hope that every stain on your freedom will shortly be removed, and that the erasure of that foul blot on civilisation and Christianity – chattel slavery – during your presidency, will cause the name of Abraham Lincoln to be honoured and revered by posterity. We are certain that such a glorious consomethingion will cement Great Britain and the United States in close and enduring regards.
— Public Meeting, Free Trade Hall, Manchester, 31 December 1862.
IMO racism is very much a learnt behaviour, and our leaders are teaching racism to the nation.
Starmers labour is an absolute rejection of traditional labour principles, the educated politicians are currently the creators of the rise in racism. I am sick and tired of the labelling of the working classes as racist by the bigoted middle and upper classes making excuses for their own embrace of racist policies.
If you want to reject racism tell the people who are running the show, don't blame me, my family and the community I come from for the abject failure of political leadership. I am really starting to get angry about the passing of the blame by class snobs, they got what they wanted in a Starmer government, they drove true fighters against racism out of the party to remake it in their image, so it is about time they owned their actions and took some responsibility for what they have created.
The country 100% doesn't need 5yrs of Reform - the damage they could do would be irreversible for decades.
Pretty sure we're going to be dealing with the Brexit fallout for while yet, even before Reform get their grubby mitts anywhere near power
Pretty sure we're going to be dealing with the Brexit fallout for while yet, even before Reform get their grubby mitts anywhere near power
Seeing as Vote Leave and Reform are pretty much one and the same, I don't think there's any need to distinguish between Brexit damage and that done by any future Reform government - should there be one.
We are going to be dealing with the effects of ongoing austerity for a long time.
We are going to be dealing with the dismantling of state services for long time
We are going to be dealing with unaffordable housing for a long time.
We are going to be dealing with suppressed wages and inflated assets for a long time
We are going to soon be dealing with the impacts of automation replacing jobs.
Basically there are many many things that are strangling the nation, and the shit is rolling downhill and effecting the poorest and most vulnerable most. People Starmer has not just turned his back on, but he is punching down on.
Brexit is a few percent of the problem, austerity has had a far bigger impact, we need to get our shit together first, otherwise re-joining the EU will have **** all impact on most peoples lives (other than probably further inflating assets and making them even more unaffordable for the majority and it being much easier for the wealthy to buy their retirement villa in Provence).
There is no point voting for Starmers labour unless you support life getting worse, because that is what he guarantees now. Time to vote vote green (or another left wing party if it emerges) and hope a groundswell of support might actually change something.
Incidentally, do we think Starmer had the good grace to drop the likes of Sadiq Khan a WhatsApp to let him know he'd be delivering a speech where he would say immigration had done incalculable damage to the UK?
Khan on radio the other day - didn't like Starmer's words.
But also Khan tying himself in knots over Thames Water. (Can't have tax-payers subsidising it he said - but we are paying these insane bills). Well as a bill payer you are already directly subsidising it. And paying bonuses.
As a tax-payer you would not pay for it all. You would pay tax for sure - but none of your tax pays the public purse.
Khan still has the whole Neoliberal thing running through his brain.
We need a wholesale dismantling of current understanding of G'vt finances - it's causing absolute chaos in terms of good outcomes.
There is no point voting for Starmers labour unless you support life getting worse, because that is what he guarantees now. Time to vote vote green (or another left wing party if it emerges) and hope a groundswell of support might actually change something.
Absolutely.
Better the devil you know - got us to this point.
It's time to reject what is bad for us, and make the parties realise they can't expect our votes based on a terrible political direction and vague word-salad bullshit.
See, the whole freebie-gate thing actually gave them away - it was an early signal of their respect for the electorate and the general feeling of disdain for real change. It was more important than was initially thought.
There is no point voting for Starmers labour unless you support life getting worse, because that is what he guarantees now. Time to vote vote green (or another left wing party if it emerges) and hope a groundswell of support might actually change something.
I agree with the principle, but "hope" is doing a lot of lifting in that sentence. Big risk of the vote splitting and the right getting in.
There is no point voting for Starmers labour unless you support life getting worse, because that is what he guarantees now.
Well there is, because there's the possibility of it getting even worse still under someone else. I know it's not how the system is meant to work, but it's how it does work. It's shit, but still.
Time to vote vote green
I did, first time I had a vote to cast in a UK election and the green candidate got it. The constituency was the one on my last P45 and a conservative stronghold. I read the manifestos and voted for the one closest to my beliefs.
We need to be careful here. I didn’t vote Labour under Miliband mostly because of the immigration dog whistle on his tablet of stone. The result of Labour losing that election wasn’t a better environment here for those that had immigrated here, or those that were looking to.
The result of Labour winning the election wasn’t a better environment here for those that had immigrated here, or those that were looking to.
FTFY
Starmer has made it worse again, he has taken the racist dog whistle of the tories and is taking it further.
Someone suggested earlier that Labour should form an alliance with the Green Party, despite the fact that Labour are now politically much closer to the Tories than they are to the Greens.
It turns out that environmental issues are no exception
There is no point voting for Starmers labour unless you support life getting worse, because that is what he guarantees now.
Well there is, because there's the possibility of it getting even worse still under someone else. I know it's not how the system is meant to work, but it's how it does work. It's shit, but still.
That's my dilema really, and why I voted Labour last GE... I've got no love at all for labour, in current, or past incarnations.
It wasn't a vote for labour, it was a vote against the conservatives and reform, as labour were the least worst option in my constituency, if I wanted to vote for anyone who stood half a chance of winning, anyway.
I think I'm just going to go back to voting lib-dem again.
Well I don't know about you lot but I got a bit of energy £ support under the shite Tories.
Not seeing much like under this lot. Reality is it could much worse under Labour too.
These days to assume Labour is always better than Tory is not a given I'm afraid.
Something I wouldn't have said before the election.
(Don't get me wrong I'm never gonna vote Tory.l
Well I don't know about you lot but I got a bit of energy £ support under the shite Tories.
Yep, the 28 billion for GBenergy was the start of a solution for energy prices, then nearly immediately going back on that and just allowing guaranteed profits for private investment means we are going to be paying far far more than that 28 billion for ever. Private financing for government services is national debt in a separate accounting column, and it is higher interest debt that never goes away.
The Starmer fanbois always try the straw man argument of "its unrealistic to have anything fixed in x months or years". No shit sherlock, nobody expected it to be fixed by now, what we did expect was a coherent plan to start fixing the problems, and not some bullshit imagined fever dream of secret background planning that no one can tell us about but is real honest, and then the repeated dead cat of migration being being slammed on the table.
The i Paper front page today said that the restriction on non-EU immigration was requested by the EU as a prerequisite for the youth mobility scheme. A quick search didn't turn up anything on it though. May just be apologising for him.
On the subject of water companies...
There was a representative from one or other of the companies being interviewed on the radio earlier. A massively easy ride with a pretence of a difficult question or two. I was shouting at the radio:
"Ask the bastard what the value of dividends and exec bonuses they've paid out over the last three years is".
But, nah, wouldn't want to offend anyone, would we?
Any party should ultimately be into a loser blaming everything on immigration. If they don’t sort it out (which they can’t really as they know it is needed) they get blamed and if they did sort it out people would realise their lives are no better so they would get blamed.
That is why they need to make so many token gestures with a side effect of stirring up division. Not so much an island of strangers but many islands of like people as a result of divisive rhetoric.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1922663370018156919?t=nv_CWRV7Ap3FJfyol5nY2w&s=19
Personally apparently.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1922564643433627824?t=tpeWfYY5YpKsxvNX9uUhsw&s=19
When you lose in the polls - double down on the weak.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1922310240973791552?t=B7cJu_BLiFrhrClhKot5DQ&s=19
His timeline is full of it.
Panic mode.