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Very naive of Labour to think they can win this battle. They need to work on delivering the things that actually matter to people's every day lives, which probably needs needs those migrant workers.
Utterly.
There is a big chunk of the UK population that would still want migrants living in tents even if they were living in opulent luxury themselves. Depressing. And repeated across the developed world.
Maybe so. I'd like to think a Labour government might challenge this though rather than encourage it.
They are in power to improve things.
Government sets the rules by which we all have to play.
I'd like to think a Labour government might challenge this though rather than encourage it.
I assumed he was talking about the current labour government and its supporters, it is after all the government are the ones driving the current crop of racist rhetoric and policy, and their supporters making excuses, obfuscating and trying to pass the blame for that rhetoric and policy.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1921454888766112166?t=sn1eVXzfoJexhoflRZO__A&s=19
Is this it now - modern politics simply arguing about migration numbers and the sentiment of people coming over here taking our jobs?
This debate is unwinnable in this context.
For such bullshit he fully deserves a slap in the face, kicked in the balls then a final slap in the face.
What a ****
The Tories lost control of our borders and let net migration soar to record levels, undercutting hardworking Brits.
Are there really any voters who are likely to believe that the Tories were relatively soft on immigration and that a Labour government will be significantly tougher?
I mean I am willing to believe that this current so-called Labour government is capable of anything, after all Starmer claims to have changed Labour's DNA so it is obviously no longer the party that we once knew, but Starmer is going to have to do some spectacular stuff to convince voters that he is tougher on immigration than the Tories.
And if being tough on immigration is as important as Starmer claims it is then he is going to have to convince voters that he is also tougher on the issue than Nigel Farage and Reform are, otherwise he is simply providing them with ammunition for them to use against himself. Plus not forgetting that Reform are at least as much of a threat to Labour now as the Tories are.
And all this from a man who during the Labour leadership contest pledged a commitment to "free movement".
It's a pity that there isn't a Nobel Prize for Political Acrobatics.
Quietly increasing/decreasing immigration (but always allowing it) according to real requirements, then scapegoating and marginalising those immigrants for political purposes is standard practice in mainstream UK politics now. It is just tone and vehemence of the scapegoating that varies, between parties, within parties and according to political necessity.
It is just where we are as a society right now.
I find the politics around immagration really frustrating -
Firstly it's we need to stop workers coming in & taking our jobs, now it's we want only degree level people coming, we want to be a nation of shelf stackers, cleaners, bar people, delivery drivers, bulb pickers etc... The whole thing is just so backwards to me.
Then you hear people like Tice shouting we have 9 million people out of work. No challenge on the breakdown of why they are out of work, or what they are doing instead.
If we have 9 million vacancies for something would those 9 million people be able to do that job? No. A lot would be unsuitable.
Build native workers up, give them something to aim for. Be better.
Just listening to Starmer now.
Reform government in 2029 it is then.
🤷♂️
Firstly it's we need to stop workers coming in & taking our jobs, now it's we want only degree level people coming, we want to be a nation of shelf stackers, cleaners, bar people, delivery drivers, bulb pickers etc... The whole thing is just so backwards to me.
Yup, it's just bizarre. The huge postwar immigration into the UK (as indeed many other European countries) was designed to attract unskilled or semiskilled labour to do the sort of crap jobs that no one else wanted to do.
Now we have the Tories, Reform, and lately Labour, all arguing that well paid professional jobs should be prioritised for foreigners whilst low paid crap jobs should be reserved for Brits.
How patriotic of them !
Whilst I am not happy about the anti-immigration rhetoric, because it clearly stokes xenophobia, I can see why they've done it. If they don't get immigration down, then both Reform and the Tories will use it against them. If they can get it down, they can point to the Tories not having done that at the last election.
It's terrible, but that's democracy for you. People associate the term with progressive government, but all it does is deliver what most people who vote think they want. That's our biggest problem by far.
Its a stupid and self defeating pokicy.
Immigrants are essential to the economy.
Its also almost impossible to reduce numbers so its likely to fail.
Ok Keir, that's the hard line message on immigration done. Now can we have the progressive economic policies and redistributive taxes which the blue labour manifesto calls for? I doubt it. 🙄
Someone on Bluesky described this as a gambit from SKS to stay as PM, a job he isn’t very good at and has no ambition to do anything with.
It’s hard to shake the idea this is right.
Its a stupid and self defeating pokicy.
Might be necessary though. If they don't do something about it then they're probably dead. They haven't got the charisma and skill to persuade everyone that immigrats are not the problem after all - not in the current climate. I wish they did.
Someone on Bluesky described this as a gambit from SKS to stay as PM
No, for Labour to stay in Government. As upset as I am about this I'd still far rather them than Reform or Tories.
As upset as I am about this I'd still far rather them than Reform or Tories.
Why, what do you think differentiates them, other than personality.
For me it is far worse that labour are being lead by politicians that are encouraging racism rather than fighting it, it removes any counterpoint to the argument of racists and populists, and concretes it in as a policy that no one is offering to change or oppose.
SKS isn't a disappointment, he is an right wing zealot who is destroying labour.
The nhs needs immigrants
Without them nhs issues get worse abd labour will fail anyway
Its also pandering to the far right and giving them legitimacy
I keep being told Scotland is no different to the rest of the Uk. But a pro Europe pro immigration party has been in government in Scotland for 15 years and now looks nailed on to continue
Something doesn't add up
Londoners could probably say the same, but your point still stands.
I discovered yesterday just how much the anti-immigration racist message from Reform and others has become the norm. While riding my bike down the canal I met a group of teenage lads going the other way on their mountain bikes. I said hello as I normally do and they all responded cheerily with the greeting of 'White Power!'. If teenagers are now using that as a greeting to strangers and thinking there's nothing wrong with it then Starmer has got big problems on his hands.
I keep being told Scotland is no different to the rest of the Uk.
You keep being told that your obsession and relentless remarks concerning Scotland are mostly not very useful on a thread about the UK government.
Every part of the UK has its unique characteristics, not just Scotland. Reform's highest level of support appears to be in Northern England, perhaps an interesting observation but unless you can figure out a way to exclude Northern England from UK national politics not particularly useful, beyond a bit of cheap point scoring.
It’s hard to shake the idea this is right.
I read Get In a couple of weeks back. Whilst there is some obvious bias from the sources used (Sue Gray and allies definitely didnt have any input) Starmer really does come across like both Cameron and Johnson. Likes the idea of being PM but has absolutely nothing beyond that. No strategy or plan but just a feeling that they would be good at the job.
McSweeney (who definitely had his own or close allies input and still comes across problematically) comes across as just hating the "hard left" and beyond that not having much of a strategy or plan either. He also comes across as overly led by focus groups which means anything heavily splashed by the media becomes his guiding star.
Ok Keir, that's the hard line message on immigration done.
Hard line? The aim is to reduce immigration isn't it? Not eliminate it. The challenge though is ensuring the requirements of industries currently heavily reliant on immigration can be covered. That I'm not convinced of.
If they don't get immigration down, then both Reform and the Tories will use it against them. If they can get it down, they can point to the Tories not having done that at the last election.
The numbers will never really matter and will never be enough.
When did facts hold up in today's politics?
That he singled out engineers was interesting/terrifying.
That he singled out engineers was interesting/terrifying. Government plans require them. Deterring them from working here is self defeating (just an example, I know the same is true across society).
For me it is far worse that labour are being lead by politicians that are encouraging racism rather than fighting it, it removes any counterpoint to the argument of racists and populists, and concretes it in as a policy that no one is offering to change or oppose.
This.
Labour aren't interested in changing narratives just second guessing - what would Reform do?
This won't work on that level. There is no migrant number that will suddenly stop racists being racist.
But then that's Labour for you they will go anywhere but solutions.
Reform is a voting badge and Labour are not going to pull those numbers by debasing themselves.
I know I'm wasting my time, trying to make sense of something that is nonsensical, but the singling out of foreign care workers yesterday baffled me. People who want to come here, legally (not in boats) to do low-paid, often thankless jobs, and Labour don't want them. Eh???
It's all starting to remind me of the Tories ten years ago, when I wondered if it was government policy to attract in graduates/skilled people from overseas to do jobs that require qualifications, and have UK residents to do all of the low-paid work, such as stacking shelves/picking vegetables. Don't need qualifications for that, so why not make cutbacks in education here and let other countries pay for educating our skilled workers?
It's all starting to remind me of the Tories ten years ago, when I wondered if it was government policy to attract in graduates/skilled people from overseas to do jobs that require qualifications, and have UK residents to do all of the low-paid work, such as stacking shelves/picking vegetables. Don't need qualifications for that, so why not make cutbacks in education here and let other countries pay for educating our skilled workers?
If your interest is staying in power then an uneducated electorate is helpful for that.
The point is ernie that Scotland is a part of the UK. When you say something is happening in the UK but it does not apply to Scotland then actually you are not talking about the UK
Say England when you are talking about england
The other aspect is that the Scottish experience has lessons for the rest of the Uk. A pro European pro immigration party can have resonance with the electorate
The other aspect is that the Scottish experience has lessons for the rest of the Uk. A pro European pro immigration party can have resonance with the electorate
A nationalist separatist party, there is little difference in the mindset of the Scottish and English, it is just that the Scottish direct their hatred towards the English primarily (no matter how much you believe in Scottish exceptionalism which in itself is a manifestation of racism).
I have said this before, driving a German registered car throughout the UK, Scotland is the only nation where I experienced verbal racism directed at me, and it happened 3 times. So my personal experience is that Scotland is more racist than the rest of the UK.
Don't need qualifications for that, so why not make cutbacks in education here and let other countries pay for educating our skilled workers?
It's all very well reducing immigration but he's going to get quite a shock at how much it's going to cost to get people already here to do all these jobs. Skilled jobs will require training and education which costs a lot of money. Unskilled jobs are going to require higher wages, especially in the care industry. He probably thinks he can squeeze benefits to force people on on benefits to take them up but that's obviously not going to work. Rachel from accounts is not going to like it.
When you say something is happening in the UK but it does not apply to Scotland then actually you are not talking about the UK
Yes the head of the UK government said something today and yes it applies to the whole of the UK including Scotland.
The other aspect is that the Scottish experience has lessons for the rest of the Uk. A pro European pro immigration party can have resonance with the electorate
A nationalist separatist party, there is little difference in the mindset of the Scottish and English, it is just that the Scottish direct their hatred towards the English primarily (no matter how much you believe in Scottish exceptionalism which in itself is a manifestation of racism).
I have said this before, driving a German registered car throughout the UK, Scotland is the only nation where I experienced verbal racism directed at me, and it happened 3 times. So my personal experience is that Scotland is more racist than the rest of the UK.
😆
The other aspect is that the Scottish experience has lessons for the rest of the Uk. A pro European pro immigration party can have resonance with the electorate
A nationalist separatist party, there is little difference in the mindset of the Scottish and English, it is just that the Scottish direct their hatred towards the English primarily (no matter how much you believe in Scottish exceptionalism which in itself is a manifestation of racism).
I have said this before, driving a German registered car throughout the UK, Scotland is the only nation where I experienced verbal racism directed at me, and it happened 3 times. So my personal experience is that Scotland is more racist than the rest of the UK.
😆
As a country, we have become incredibly reliant on immigration. If you want to reduce legal migration, there has to be the opportunity and incentive for people already here to take up jobs. The construction industry has a skills shortage, but construction T levels have been dropped due to lack of take up. We only train around 1,100 dentist a year, but there are almost 3,000 dentist vacancies.
I think it's worthwhile pointing out that Labour's manifesto (which they were elected on) included reducing (legal) immigration. So it shouldn't come as a surprise.
I think it's worthwhile pointing out that Labour's manifesto (which they were elected on) included reducing (legal) immigration. So it shouldn't come as a surprise.
Labour's manifesto included a lot of stuff, some of which Starmer clearly couldn't give a monkeys about. I think what is surprising is that Starmer appears to be attaching so much importance to an issue which is absolutely central to Nigel Farage but actually has far less relevance to the lives of ordinary people than he makes out.
I have absolutely no problem with a government aiming to reduce net migration, there is probably a reasonable case for doing so. What I have a problem with is governments using immigrants as scapegoats for their own failures, adding to the anti-immigrant and anti-refugee rhetoric which has gripped Europe and the United States thus creating a climate of fear and hatred, and using the issue in a desperate attempt to scrape the gutter looking for easy votes.
The reason that many voters consider immigration to be such an important issue, more important than the economy, the NHS, the environment, law and order, etc, is because the Tories, Reform, and now "Labour", keeps telling them that it is really important.
And the most important point which Starmer, McSweeney, and all the other herberts who are detached from the lives of ordinary working people fail to understand, is that only one politician can win playing this game...... Nigel Farage.
The construction industry has a skills shortage, but construction T levels have been dropped due to lack of take up. We only train around 1,100 dentist a year, but there are almost 3,000 dentist vacancies.
It's a combination of low wages (in the case of manual jobs) and the cost of training in the case of dentists, nurses and doctors etc. Who's going to borrow 100k on student loans to be a student doctor working 60 hour weeks for 40k? If the govt wants more nurses, dentists and doctors (and teachers, which they're going to need), they need to pay for the training*. Also, now we're in the second generation of Thatcher's home ownership revolution many kids today come from families with some money behind them. Why would they work for minimum wage in the care sector when they can get by on inheritances and the bank of mum and dad? You can't force people to work if the financial benefits of working don't add up.
*Or even better, pay them a salary while they study. In the engineering sector we've got some degree apprenticeships and they've been hugely successful and massively over-subscribed with applicants.
Island of Strangers = Citizens of Nowhere.
Both from fundamentally cowardly politicians trying to ride the wave of post-Brexit overt populism and failing.
FFS.
I know quite a few people who used to work in the care industry.
All of whom quit to work in different sectors as with the hours and responsibilities, and the very low wages it just wasn't economically viable for them.
So I'm not sure who's going to be be filling in the gaps if the only immigration allowed is for people who have degrees or or specialist skills.
All of whom quit to work in different sectors as with the hours and responsibilities, and the very low wages it just wasn't economically viable for them.
There's massive competition for labour across all sectors. One of my mates recently got a job as a trainee probation officer. No experience necessary, just an education and willingness to do the job. Salary at 25k though is ridiculous and not worth the demands of the job and the effort put into training. She's gonna quit as soon as something else comes up. At some point Labour or whoever is the next govt is going to have to confront the public/third sector salary problem if they want to avoid bringing in cheap foreign workers. The only way to solve the immigration 'problem' is to start taxing the rich more and redistributing that money to public sector workers.
The reason that many voters consider immigration to be such an important issue, more important than the economy, the NHS, the environment, law and order, etc, is because the Tories, Reform, and now "Labour", keeps telling them that it is really important
This.
What we've got now is an act of desperation, probably following those elections as Labour realise how desperately unpopular they are.
This is not the vantage point to be looking at migration from. And given what a mess Labour are making of almost anything they touch - I pretty much expect the same here.
This feels like a very much desperate attempt to recover that sentiment.
What Labour are good at though is boxing themselves in. Any idea that Starmer was or is pro EU needs to be flushed down the drain.
He's probably 'pro' whatever thinks we win him an election.
Spend some money you absolute bone-heads and get the economy going! Now everyone's focussed on migration - cos everything else is in the shitter.
Cold War Steve on point as usual, it’s titled “metamorphose”
https://twitter.com/coldwarsteve/status/1921639175977152585
He's probably 'pro' whatever thinks we win him an election.
Well he’s resolutely pro-Zionist, and that looks like a vote loser for him, so there are limits to his vote chasing.