[Closed] UK Falling behind

robdixon, directly taken from that torygraph article:

All of these schools have now been inspected by Ofsted. Of those, four were rated outstanding, 14 good, five require improvement and one was inadequate.
The figures are roughly in line with the ratings given to all state schools across England.

Edit: too slow typing on tablet!!

I agree clink it is tricky but given the right data its possible. Especially with secondary schools, just look at prior attainment and progress.

As a parent, my lad's school changed status to an academy a couple of years ago with loads of hype. The only changes that I have noticed have been an increase in admin staff & pension liability for teaching staff, including the recent retirement of the head.

Can I also separate those of us North and West of the English borders?
In Scotland we have a very different curriculum now, with massively different focus and outcomes slowly working its way through the system (upwards).
Long term it will create a different set of skills and abilities in the pupils.
We also, as of August, have teachers who have to re-validate their competence, including learning new skills, every 5 years or face not being allowed to teach. This is hand in hand with new support and money for in-service training. Investing in our teachers WILL make a bigger difference IMO.

TEST QUESTIONS (LEVEL 6)
HELEN THE CYCLIST
Helen has just got a new bike. It has a speedometer which sits on the handlebar.

The speedometer can tell Helen the distance she travels and her average speed for a trip.

QUESTION
Helen rode her bike from home to the river, which is 4 km away. It took her 9 minutes. She rode home using a shorter route of 3 km. This only took her 6 minutes.

What was Helen's average speed, in km/h, for the trip to the river and back?

Average speed for the trip: ..................... km/h

% OF STUDENTS WHO SCORED LEVEL 6 OR ABOVE
Shanghai-China 31%
Singapore 19%
Chinese Taipei 18%
Hong Kong-China 12%
Korea 12%
Japan 8%
Macao-China 8%
Liechtenstein 7%
Switzerland 7%
Belgium 6%
Poland 5%
Germany 5%
NewZealand 5%
Netherlands 4%
Canada 4%
Australia 4%
Estonia 4%
Finland 4%
Vietnam 4%
Slovenia 3%
OECD average 3%
Austria 3%
Czech Republic 3%
France 3%
Slovak Republic 3%
United Kingdom 3%
Luxembourg 3%
Iceland 2%
United States 2%
Israel 2%

TEST QUESTIONS (LEVEL 3)
WHICH CAR?
Chris has just received her car driving licence and wants to buy her first car.

This table below shows the details of four cars she finds at a local car dealer.
[img] [/img]

QUESTION
Which car's engine capacity is the smallest?
A Alpha
B Bolte
C Castel
D Dezal

% OF STUDENTS WHO SCORED LEVEL 3 OR ABOVE

Shanghai-China 89%
...
United Kingdom 55%

Difficult to remember what sort of arithmetic I was doing at 15, but I'm quite surprised at how low the UK Level 6 achievement was. Even the Chinese students only hit 31%.

The Level 4 result is even more striking, if only just over half of the UK students could interpret a simple table and find the lowest number.

Same issues in the US. They implement testing to measure achievement. Then they get accused of only teaching what is on the test! 😕

Sometimes, it gets really ridiculous like [url= http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2013/11/03/With-more-than-270-tests-at-Pittsburgh-schools-this-year-when-is-enough-enough.html ]Pittsburgh Schools giving 270 tests[/url]

Which car's engine capacity is the smallest?
A Alpha
B Bolte
C Castel
D Dezal
or
E Dont give a shit as I have no idea why I'm doing this stupid test

The Level 4 result is even more striking, if only just over half of the UK students could interpret a simple table and find the lowest number.

That statistic does worry me. And then I realised that 0% of kcr could repeat the Level accurately.

Now I'm really worried 🙁

Without wanting to get into a pissing contest, at 15 I had started my Higher maths which would have included all sorts of stuff like geometry, algebra, trigonometry, and calculus and I was by no means exceptional.

Do these rankings matter a toss?
It won't affect me in the slightest. As a teacher that is.
About as useful as league table for schools if you ask me. As there are too many variables they are not valid comparisons.
I teach 7 year olds who remind me about fair testing.

[i]Unless reform enables higher quality teachers to be emlyed its all pissing in [/i]

Simple solution -

Pay teachers more to ensure you attract higher quality candidates.

Apparently it works well with MPs and company directors.

kcr - Member

TEST QUESTIONS (LEVEL 6)
HELEN THE CYCLIST

Whats worrying in the whole world figures is the low percentages that could do this simple arithmetic. Not even a 1/3rd at the highest. My personal believe is that kids are too reliant on electronics to be able to spot relationships between things.
I rely on electronics, in fact it was my bread and butter before I packed in work, but I did have the foundations set before I leart to use a calculator or a social media/forum website.

Why do we want to compete with places like South Korea anyway? The kids study 15 odd hours a day, sleep for 4 hours a day and will eventually get early alzheimers if they don't kill themselves beforehand.

We'd be much better off encouraging creativity.

mattsccm - Member

Do these rankings matter a toss?
It won't affect me in the slightest. As a teacher that is.
About as useful as league table for schools if you ask me. As there are too many variables they are not valid comparisons.
I teach 7 year olds who remind me about fair testing.

I rely on electronics, in fact it was my bread and butter before I packed in work, but I did have the foundations set before I leart to use a calculator or a social media/forum website.

From 1999, primary school children did a lot of mental maths and 'informal' maths skills, as part of the Numeracy Hour. That means the current crop of fifteen year olds did far more mental maths at school than their parents did.

Is this a good time to point out that I have A level maths, did undergraduate maths modules, and currently teach A level physics, but don't know my times tables?

Is it also a good time to point out that those decrying the current state of education on here seem to be making more spelling mistakes than the others? 🙂

By the way, I suspect that this has a lot to do with our low ranking:

E Dont give a shit as I have no idea why I'm doing this stupid test

By the way, I suspect that this has a lot to do with our low ranking:

Indeed. To quote a friend's 14 yr old son "why do I need to learn any of this stuff, I can just look it up on my phone if I need to".

the following table is of limited value 5 of the top 10 are City States you have to get to Korea before there'd any useful data..... and who would be prepared to have Korea's childhood suicide rate which may corelate to their academic achievements...

% OF STUDENTS WHO SCORED LEVEL 6 OR ABOVE
Shanghai-China 31%
Singapore 19%
Chinese Taipei 18%
Hong Kong-China 12%
Korea 12%
Japan 8%
Macao-China 8%
Liechtenstein 7%
Switzerland 7%
Belgium 6%
Poland 5%
Germany 5%
NewZealand 5%
Netherlands 4%
Canada 4%
Australia 4%
Estonia 4%
Finland 4%
Vietnam 4%
Slovenia 3%
OECD average 3%
Austria 3%
Czech Republic 3%
France 3%
Slovak Republic 3%
United Kingdom 3%
Luxembourg 3%
Iceland 2%
United States 2%
Israel 2%

Is it Shanghai that excludes the children of migrant workers from the tests?

[img] [/img]

Interesting bloke on the news this morning talking about how important social and motional intelligence are in terms of work and economic productivity. They are of course not on these tests. It's hard to draw much useful information from statistics like these.

No league table can tell the "whole story" but that doesn't mean that we should be so defensive when presented with current failings. I would expect any teacher to want the highest standards for their pupils and that includes pretty basic maths. The early questions on this test seem to be at about Common Entrance standard and the higher one pretty standard GCSE stuff. There is no real reasons why we should not score higher in these tests or that we should not be aiming for higher UK scores. Is this the be all and end of education? Of course not, but being able to make pretty simple speed, distance, time calculation should be run of the mill for people with access to UK education facilities.

Well spotted! Sloppy writing from me.
The test result does seem worrying though. Either almost half the UK kids were just slapdash, like me, or they genuinely could not interpret a table, which is a basic practical skill.

I would expect any teacher to want the highest standards for their pupils and that includes pretty basic maths.

How would you measure this? Using an international test which just samples a small number of students who know that it doesn't matter to them as individuals, or through a set of exams taken by every student and which the students understand is important to them?

Almost 60% of students get a C in GCSE maths. About 75% get a D or better, and 85% get an E or better.

A C at GCSE is quite a low bar - I'm pretty sure my ten-year-old daughter could get it - but it shows a reasonable level of mathematical fluency. Anyone getting a D probably has enough numeracy to get them by in life.

Falling behind Singapore/Shanghai/HK I can understand - these are effectively just cities and it would be more appropriate to compare to other cities.

the following table is of limited value 5 of the top 10 are City States you have to get to Korea before there'd any useful data

who would be prepared to have Korea's childhood suicide rate which may corelate to their academic achievements...

15. Rakesh and Tina share out £40 in the ratio 5:3,
in that order. How much do they each get?
Answer: Rakesh £........................ Tina £...............
...........
(3 marks)
16. A furniture company makes tables and chairs. Tables are sold for £120, and
chairs for £40.
(a) An order comes in for 9 tables and 17 chairs. W
hat is the total bill?
Answer: £.......................................................................
(2 marks)
(b) Write down an expression for the cost of an ord
er (the retail cost, not the
cost of manufacture) for t tables and c chairs.
Answer: £ ......................................................................
(2 marks)
19. The recommended price of a Portable DVD player is £90.
TVs Direct is selling the player with 20% off the recommended price.
Hi-Fi Gear is selling the player with a discount of 2/9
off the recommended price.
(a) What is the price in TVs Direct?
Answer: £....................................................................
(2 marks)
(b) What is the price in Hi-Fi gear?
Answer: £....................................................................
(2 marks)
(c) How much more does the DVD player cost in TVs Direct?
Answer: £....................................................................
(1 mark)

All the questions given so far are exactly the sort of question they'd do for GCSE foundation level (up to a grade C), if not slightly easier.

Konabunny 15-19 as in they are to busy to contemplate suicide during that period. The problems in korea come later on.

Another thing I would add is that Asian children are so highly disciplined that they may take non-mandatory/irrelevant exams more seriously than the more rebellious western children.

Its also interesting to note that many universities over here reckon a lot of chinese students exam results are state sponsored forgeries.

Falling behind in math(s)? In the global race?

What is this race and is it really that important?

Who actually cares?

Bottom line:

1. Other nations are catching up.

2. Confucius emphasis on learning.
(they have to sit for tough exams long before the Roman barbarians ruled the west)

3. Their upbringing with parents' heavy emphasis on learning.

4. Their languague background. i.e. if they learn Chinese characters then they need to remember (memorise) them well. The Chinese characters cannot really be spelt out easily.

5. Suicide rate etc ... irrelevant to the learning in those countries, if you cannot handle it then do something else. If you want to kill yourself then by all means, as there will be less competition.

6. Many Koreans even try to settle down in other countries because of the intense competition in their own country.

There you go.

🙄

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea

South Korea has the highest suicide rate out of the oecd countries.

My missus mentioned a while back that South Koreans are even resorting to sending their children to Filipino International Schools so they actually get more than 4 hours sleep a night.

IMO such pressure is child abuse. Plain and simple.

Tom_W1987 - Member

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea

South Korea has the highest suicide rate out of the oecd countries.

I am not surprised as that's the sacrifice they have to make to progress this far within 30 years. Once they were behind many South East Asian countries but now they are even challenging Japan and other developed world. They are even harder working people than the Japanese. If Korean unite you will see another "Germany".

Suicide ... hmmm ... to them it means less competiton.

🙄

The thing is, what is the damn point. With the way technology is going we need to encourage creativity, instead of attempting to compete with computers on memory recall and computational power.

Tom_W1987 - Member

[b][u]The thing is, what is the damn point.[/u][/b] With the way technology is going we need to encourage creativity, instead of attempting to compete with computers on memory recall and computational power.

They boss you worker. You work. You no lazy. Chop! Chop!

Creativity? They are comfortable as they are besides they were creative lot until they shut their doors to outside world.

🙄

With the way technology is going we need to encourage creativity, instead of attempting to compete with computers on memory recall and computational power.

This is truely worrying. Computers are dumb deterministic machines that are only capable of doing what the human tells them to do. Without the knowledge to actually understand the question that you are asking how can you ever hope to understand the answer.

It is become more prevelant that when asked a question people (and this is by no means limited to the young) respond with "the computer says..." when in fact the computer says no such thing it has just spat out an answer to whatever problem it was presented with.

I use computers every day to perform calculations that would otherwise take weeks, but I still write up most of my calculations by hand and I am a better engineer because of it.

So should I send my child to Korea to be educated?

Whats worrying in the whole world figures is the low percentages that could do this simple arithmetic. Not even a 1/3rd at the highest. My personal believe is that kids are too reliant on electronics to be able to spot relationships between things.

^^ Exactly. It's not a difficult question but it requires a solid understanding of the relationship between speed/distance/time etc.

I'm a bit sympathetic because this is a question that 70% of adults will probably get wrong.

Falling behind in math(s)? In the global race?

What is this race and is it really that important?

Who actually cares?

It's not a problem for you 'cos the till in McDonalds automatically works out the change. Bloody hell, if this is the attitude...

How would you measure this?

In the response to these kind of reports. We are v quick to rubbish them etc. but as you say this is not difficult maths. Basic ratio questions is 12-13 yr old stuff and easy to learn and to teach. Why shouldn't we be ashamed that we can't score 100%, why should we think that this is not important. As I said before, it is not the be all and end all, but it's sad that we no longer aim higher in education.

Is a bit like teachers saying why bother to use textbooks that go beyond the curriculum. That says a lot about how we approach education.

AA, many Asians send their children to be educated over here especially in the 6th form as I am sure you are aware. My younger son plays in various orchestrates, in one case there are 28 string players of whom 24 are Asian students. Thank goodness they come here because without them the numbers capable of playing at a high standards would not be enough to support several orchestras. But the good news is that they do come here? Why because there is excellence in UK education. We are world class at it but we do not use this skill correctly or widely enough.

We don't need to go to Scandinavia or Asia for the answers. There are here in the UK. We just need to look closer and execute better.

Is a bit like teachers saying why bother to use textbooks that go beyond the curriculum. That says a lot about how we [s]approach education[/s] [i]measure the success of teachers[/i].

Fixed that for you.

Well it's a bit of both mike isn't it?

anagallis_arvensis - Member

So should I send my child to Korea to be educated?

Yes, to let him/her see the competition ahead heading his/her way.

teamhurtmore - Member

AA, many Asians send their children to be educated over here especially in the 6th form as I am sure you are aware.

Several things:

1. Their parents still consider UK one of the best place for education - largely duped by agents or they are old fashion etc, old news, old impression etc.

2. Their parents have been heavily influenced (duped) by the advertisements or agents.

3. Some of them still consider UK the place to migrate over in future so send their children to start young by studying here.

4. They try to show off to their friends that they are able to send their children over for education at young age.

5. Early start at 6th form or earlier so that they can get a "guaranteed" place at the Uni., because the children would be "in the system".

But the good news is that they do come here? Why because there is excellence in UK education. We are world class at it but we do not use this skill correctly or widely enough.

They come here for the above reasons. Some of their parents do not even know what their children are studying. They think that they are in capable hands to guide them to Uni etc.

UK is [b][u]NOT[/u][/b] excellence in education. There are other systems available but majority consider UK amongst the best because the world population speaks English (former colonies) that is why they come here ... thinking that they are advance ... until they are here.

I would certainly advice others against coming to study in UK for non-science subjects because it is an entirely total waste of life.

🙄

Well it's a bit of both mike isn't it?

It is, but what drives the approach to teaching is the push from central government to constantly monitor and evaluate progress, rather than actually educating.

My daughter has been put off English this year, because they're doing loads of work to make sure they get through the spelling, punctuation and grammar tests that Gove introduced.

As far as i can see, the SPaG testing was brought in because it's cheap to mark and it's a way for Gove to 'prove' standards were poor at the start of his term in office and will 'improve' after his reforms.