funcydunc - why should my taxes be used to subsidise your sons private school? I have already paid taxes to provide a place for him at a school
I've seen one Conservative poster in a window in my travels around Cheltenham, every other banner is LD with the occasional Green, so I suspect it's not going to be a very close race this time. The Tory supporters are being particularly shy around here.
see this I don’t get. The mentality that you are so embarrassed by the party you support that you don’t want to let anyone know you support them. Yet you vote for them anyways.
I can understand that. There's enough nutters around that no matter whether its a Green poster or a Tory one that theres a chance someone is going to come and shout their mouth off at you (or a brick through your window). I've never understood why people put those posters up anyway - will I vote Tory because I live in a street with many tories? Its also worth remembering that many people don't live alone - so some may have a wife/husband/partner saying - not this year! Up here its just as likely to be an SNP voter as a Tory who will read the room before sharing their intentions!
** Newsflash ** - I've just had a leaflet through the door from a candidate who did just motivate me to go and find out more...
I had to google what these bullet point policies meant:
- abstention - I was wondering if they were Tea Total advocates, or suggesting no sex before marraige...
- salvo
I'm pretty sure there's an apostrophe crime in: women's rights'
and it happened from working with a member of the Liberation Party that I knew what "Liberation Movement" was about.
So I present to you the latest alternative to political parties, in the form of this policital party: www.isp.scot seems to be what happens when you cross the Alba Party with Reform!
funcydunc – why should my taxes be used to subsidise your sons private school? I have already paid taxes to provide a place for him at a school
Go on TJ, please explain? Genuinely why are you subsidising my sons place at private school? I see that I am also paying for a state school place that I am not using.
why should my taxes be used to subsidise your sons private school? I have already paid taxes to provide a place for him at a school
No you don't, you pay taxes, one of things those taxes don't pay for is FunkyDunc's school fees, he pays for those.and as he pointed out he's already paid taxes as well but doesn't get the paid for school place that people using the state schools do. Same with people who pay for treatment privately, doesn't deprive the NHS of funds but does reduce costs and the individual pays double.
The point is that because there is no VAT on private schools that lost money has to come from somewhere thus the rest of us pay more taxes than we would otherwise. Thus some of my taxes are used to cover the shortfall, thus my taxes are indirectly subsidizing your sons fee paying school.
Same with people who pay for treatment privately, doesn’t deprive the NHS of funds but does reduce costs and the individual pays double.
Private medical companies do not get VAT exemptions ( bar BUPA which is a mutual?) so not tax loss. Major difference.
Fair play to the Lib Dems, they're the only party to bother leafleting here, and no one has knocked on the door. I can't help but think this is deliberately misleading though.
I have mentioned before, I'm in a "safe" Tory seat, so want to vote tactically. This bar chart, suggests it's clear that based on their record, the LDs are the obvious choice. Until you look closely and see it refers to the 2005 election, nearly two decades ago and the electoral boundaries have changed since then!!! Labour were second place ahead of the LDs last time in 2019.
Yeah I know, politicians sometimes economical with the truth shocker!
Still don't know how to use my vote to best effect.
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TJ - I think you need to analyse it a little further.
There is no costs to the state of a private school (that I am aware of) so the Treasury is not incurring a cost. If VAT is included on fees that will just be a bonus income to the Treasury - unless tell me I have that very wrong?? The Treasury has never had this income.
Private schools are currently not allowed to reclaim VAT on things they purchase so that is a gain to the Treasury. If VAT is put on school fees then the change in status means that Private Schools will start reclaiming VAT on purchases.
Its not a simple straightforward net calculation of the impact. But it certainly isnt a case of recouping lost income !
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/middle-class-priced-out-private-education-privilege-elite/
Private schools are businesses, currently taxed as charities. Just tax them fairly (albeit fairness is contra to their raison d'etre).
If VAT is included on fees that will just be a bonus income to the Treasury – unless tell me I have that very wrong?? The Treasury has never had this income
So why should private schools be exempt? They're providing a charged for service, other companies that do that pay VAT. If parents can't afford that extra...well, suck it up, buttercup.
Private education makes normal schools worse because the people with the money and power have no stake in them since they pay to have their children educated separately. If everyone from the top down had to use state schools, they’d soon get more funding and facilities.
Same with private healthcare. Those doctors and surgeons operating in private hospitals are taking resources away from public healthcare. Directly because most of those doctors will also have NHS contracts and indirectly because, as above, if the rich can buy their way out of the services they make the rest of us use, they’ll be underfunded.
Lots in farmers field’s near me (Cambs/Lincs border) for the absolute dickhead John Hayes. We had a pamphlet for him through the door.
Farmers seem to be the ones who regularly get screwed over by tory governments and yet keep on pushing them. Its like some form of BDSM for them.
There is no costs to the state of a private school (that I am aware of)
yes there is - foregone tax. Forgoing that tax is a cost to us all either in reduced services or increased taxation. Making private schools pay tax properly means an increase in public spending or a reduction in taxation.
Anyway you look at it it costs the general taxpayer of which I am one to subsidise your child at private school
According to a labour speaking head on R4 World at One, it's Data servers that will save our economy, thank god.......
Plus training doctors costs a great deal more than the fees paid so there's another subsidy to the private medicine (which Streeting is so keen to promote.)
Charities, and therefore private schools, only pay 20 per cent of their business rates, which is thought to deprive cash-strapped local authorities of £144 million per year. Scotland removed this tax break from independent schools at the start of 2022, so it’s certainly possible to do. It’s worth noting that certain specialist schools were exempt from this change.
Private schools can also benefit from being able to claim gift aid on any donations, as can the donor! Let’s say you wanted to donate £100,000 to your old school, and were a top rate tax payer. [Sunak]The school would be able to claim an additional £25,000 in gift aid from the tax-payer, and you would also be able to reclaim £31,250. Donate £100,000 to your local primary school and it actually costs you £100,000, so probably not worth it – just donate a £10 bottle of wine instead! [Also Sunak…] Parent-Teacher Associations can register as charities and claim gift aid, but they are only allowed to raise money for specific things, and not for the running costs of the school.
While charities aren’t allowed to make a profit, for many private schools, in practice this means they can make a nice surplus which then goes towards a new swimming pool, theatre, upgraded science equipment and so on. They don’t pay tax on any of the surplus, even if it’s sitting in a bank account.
Many private schools also have investment portfolios, and again, they don’t pay any tax on the income from these portfolios. In fact, there’s a nice tax loophole for the super-rich whereby they pay all their fees upfront, the school invests the lump sum, gets the returns tax-free, the parent receives a discount and once their child leaves, the school and parent split what’s left.
And during the Covid-19 Pandemic, private schools were eligible to apply for loans, with the government covering the first year’s interest payments, which state schools could not apply for. Just another example of private schools benefiting financially from their charitable status, while state schools missed out.
There appear to be many ways private schools avoid tax (vat, cut, business rates and)
@FunkyDunc - You just need to cancel your Sky and Netflix. Stopping eating so many avocados and get a better paid job.
The Tories were quite clear on how you deal with not being to make ends meet.
Plus training doctors costs a great deal more than the fees paid so there’s another subsidy to the Australian health service
FTFY. 1:7 UK medical graduates are practicing abroad, while we import doctors from countries that can ill-afford to lose them.
Directly because most of those doctors will also have NHS contracts
There's a lot of 'yes, but' here. They're not (or at least shouldn't be) doing PP in NHS contracted time, and if it's outside their contract, it's not taking NHS resources away. The ethics of essentially working for a competitor in your own time are interesting mind you.
FunkyDunc - I think your view point (and likely the view of most private school parents) is not unreasonable. I think there is clearly an alternative argument that a VAT exemption is an unusual anomaly, you could waste a lot of time arguing about whether it is a subsidy or not - its like arguing whether car drivers subsidise cyclists - its pointless.
I'd say it can only really be a "class war" if the parents believe they are a (superior) class. That's not good optics.
If you want to raise taxes, its politically more palatable to do so on people who have sufficient wealth to make discretionary spending - private schools fit that bill. Everyone who has to pay more tax has a reason why its not a good idea and they should be a special case. There are other things they could add a "luxury" tax to or remove an exemption from - but given there is a state alternative that is going to be one that gets little sympathy from those who don't have the luxury of choice.
If it ends up with low or even negative net gains - does that make it a "class war" not necessarily - its a "penalty" on those trying to gain an advantage - it may not be bad if the outcome is closing the social mobility gap. But I'm pretty sure that private schools will suddenly find ways to make the fees up to 20% cheaper for those who really couldn't afford them. I dare say that if a local authority was really worried about an influx of local students there might be ways they could help too!
Here's a question I don't know the answer to:- if VAT is introduced, would a foreign student pay it or is it treated like luxury goods that are being exported with duty free?
I’d say it can only really be a “class war” if the parents believe they are a (superior) class.
I didnt mean it in the context of a class war, but more that Labour are using it as a tactic to win votes as it is seen a way of making the rich pay.
I get all of the above social idealistic views. But I am not aware of any country that has a fair social system, probably even Russia is included in that !
I will state again - it there is no conclusive costing to show whether this change would provide income to the treasury or actually be a cost
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/middle-class-priced-out-private-education-privilege-elite/
Your voice would be a great asset in seeing that this gets fixed.
Why would it. The cost of building new schools and increasing staffing levels to get to 1-10 ratios will be far more than this sound bite would raise
The public money for buildings and staff could definitely be found if you and thousands like you get politically involved to avoid their kids having a poor education.
I didnt mean it in the context of a class war, but more that Labour are using it as a tactic to win votes as it is seen a way of making the rich pay.
It is a way of making the rich pay. What they are lacking is anything more ambitious to bring about a bit more equality.
As for socialist views, if it was up to me the schools would be removed all together so worrying about VAT would be moot.
Funcydunc - there is no0 doubt that ending the fake charitable status of fee paying schools will raise money ( most are fake charities - some actually really are I think). However its not a huge amount in the scheme of things and the policy is also as you allude a bit of virtue signalling for sure.
there is no conclusive costing to show whether this change would provide income to the treasury or actually be a cost
So private a school's overall income won't be affected 🙂
I didnt mean it in the context of a class war, but more that Labour are using it as a tactic to win votes as it is seen a way of making the rich pay. I get all of the above social idealistic views.
Yeah that's kind of what people expect for "labour values". You can say its pandering to the masses but I don't think anyone is going "Tax the rich, my Labour have changed". I do feel some sympathy for parents who are already part way through schooling and are faced with a choice.
I will state again – it there is no conclusive costing to show whether this change would provide income to the treasury or actually be a cost
If governments only changes policies when the true cost/income was certain nothing would change.
Why would it. The cost of building new schools and increasing staffing levels to get to 1-10 ratios will be far more than this sound bite would raise
I think the suggestion was that if we were "all in the same boat" that maybe some of the most articulate and influential voices might be the parents who are currently not directly bothered about the local school's issues because their kid doesnt go there and so generate more influence to actually elevate state schools.
I do feel some sympathy for parents who are already part way through schooling and are faced with a choice.
Could it be introduced on new starters only?
The impact of the VAT in this case is really to change the economic activity from the private sector to the state. So the outcome would be you increase the amount of teachers in state teaching because over time there will be less demand (and therefore - free up the labour pool) in the independent school sector because of the increased cost.
Taxes do three things.
- Change Behaviour / redistribute resources / labour
- Control Inflation by deleting money
- Create a demand for the government's currency
I've got nephews in private school, one in London, one in Yorkshire. Funnily enough the Yorkshire school costs a fair bit more than the London one. My sister's aren't happy about the increase but will pay it. If the comprehensive schools where they both live weren't shit the boys would be in state education, as a family we've all gone through comps and done well so it's not an ideological thing for our family.
Some of the parents at the London school know nothing else but private schools and have a perception that state schools are a drug filled warzone and that my sister almost crawled out the mud to succeed [she's done very well in her field].
The school we went to had a good strike rate of putting kids into good universities, in my school year alone there were nine who went to Oxbridge unis, plus others going to York, Durham etc.
My perception is that there will be some gripping about the cost increase, and then people will stump up anyway
Farmers seem to be the ones who regularly get screwed over by tory governments and yet keep on pushing them. Its like some form of BDSM for them.
The Tories only have a narrow lead in farmers voting intentions. There's always been this fallacy that the Tories look after farmers, yet they backstab them regularly. Brexit was the prime example. I've said before that farmers were one of the few groups with a valid reason to leave the EU, yet their lot has been worsened by the incompetent deals struck as a result of Brexit
Not so much a comment more of an observation on this:
Starmer made some big pledges on reforming the House of Lords by scrapping hereditary peers and bringing in an age limit.
I found that fairly disappointing but not surprising. I would have thought that proper reform of the House of "Lords" into a more democratic second chamber would be quite a low cost venture, if financial considerations is what is limiting how much a Labour government will be able to do, as claimed.
I am not even convinced that appointed Lords are necessarily any more desirable than hereditary ones. Some of the existing life ones have dubious reasons for being in the House of Lords.
In some cases they haven't done anything more than what amounts to paying a fee to get a seat in the House of Lords.
If this is what the incoming Labour government considers to be a big pledge reform then it's quite depressing imo.
Could it be introduced on new starters only?
I would think thats the sort of sensible solution. Although knowing how gov works: Elected July 24, Budget April 25 - announced from April 2026 - so really only school term Sep 26 on... and thats assuming they are "quick".
As for socialist views, if it was up to me the schools would be removed all together so worrying about VAT would be moot.
And I think thats a fair point, it is in reality the only way to go.
The VAT on school fees will mostly effect the hard working middle earners. The 'super rich' will still continue to go to private school regardless of VAT changes, and therefore society becomes even more elitist
The money you are spending on fees without VAT would be spent on something else that would incur VAT. So that’s the cost.
The people with shed loads of money will be paying VAT on school fees [b]and[/b] VAT on their other purchases. No cloth will need to be cut, no cutting back and no Sky subs to be cancelled!! 🙂
It'll be a small blip on their bottom line.
You mean those richest few % in our society. middle earners cannot afford private schools. The very fact you can afford private schooling puts you firmly in the rich bracket. average (ie middle earners) earnings are around £30 000 pa.
Private education makes normal schools worse because the people with the money and power have no stake in them since they pay to have their children educated separately
Rubbish, all that will happen is the kids that went to private schools will get into the better state schools where standards are already high, parents will either move house to be in the right catchment or find some other way of muscling into the good state schools. They certainly won't waste time to improve the local comp with a bad rep.
Plus which ever way you slice it the state has to pay for an extra pupil.
somafunk said "According to a labour speaking head on R4 World at One, it’s Data servers that will save our economy, thank god……."
did you read that recent report into the environmental impact of data servers. Maybe not the panacea people might think. Someone calculated that the energy used by data servers and infrastructure to facilitate the one billion+ views of some obscure foreign influencer/pop star last year (no idea who it was) was the equivalent needed to heat 40000 homes for a year.
Yep data centres are massive users of energy, both for the running of the servers ands the air conditioning systems they need. In the HVAC industry data centres are a sought after category in their own right.
It's also worth pointing out that not all private / public schools are either wealthy or elitist. I get that when they are mentioned most people immediately think of the Charterhouses and Eatons of this world but there are quite a few private schools that are nowhere near that league. For a number of parents, they are disillusioned with the state school system and want to provide what they feel is the best possible educational foundation for their kids. And if they can afford it, why not? I understand the socialist dream of not having private / public schools but I don't believe getting rid of them is the answer. And poorly performing state schools are not rubbish because private schools exist. And if we go down this road, where do we stop on freedom of choice to spend your own, earned money? Abolish private health care? Remove private cars because of their pollution and mandate everyone either walks, cycles or uses public transport? Only approved goods can be purchased? Do away with all luxury goods because it's usually only the rich that can afford to buy them?
I am not even convinced that appointed Lords are necessarily any more desirable than hereditary ones. Some of the existing life ones have dubious reasons for being in the House of Lords.
The lords presumably will block anything too radical? I'm not sure elected house is actually that good either - but I think you could easily define something both fairer and cheaper. If I was him I'd have announced a royal commission so he could say he wasn't gaming it for Labour benefit.
Abolish private health care? Remove private cars because of their pollution and mandate everyone either walks, cycles or uses public transport?
Are you new here? That sounds like a dream manifesto for a big chunk of the people on here.
Remove private cars because of their pollution and mandate everyone either walks, cycles or uses public transport?
I'd settle for properly funded public transport and active travel infrastructure so at least it's more of a real choice.
Data server carbon footprint is huge. It's also quite hard to calculate how much as firms are quite secretive about how much energy they use. AI seems to be totally hiding it's energy figures, so other methods of calculating it are used to come up with best guesses.
Estimated that 3% of global energy is used by data centres. Obviously the CO2 intensity of that electricity varies across the world, it's hefty though!
