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He went to a state school, looking like that?
the STW favourite Tory , Rory Stewart, looks even more weird.
Dear god! I've listened to some car crash interviews during this floundering election campaign, but Chris Heaton-Harris has just taken it to a new level on Radio 4. Mishal Hussain just absolutely dismantled him
https://Twitter.com/hx_06/status/1805138692618506569
There must be so much of this to come
Indeed.
I would have hoped that there would be more commitment from Labour and others to cut this down. I fear that the snouts in the trough will merely change in a couple of weeks....
I would have hoped that there would be more commitment from Labour and others to cut this down. I fear that the snouts in the trough will merely change in a couple of weeks….
FFS, that's like me saying that if YOU got a new job replacing someone removed for corruption that YOU also would become corrupt (very quickly)!
I've just had the pleasure of hearing Chris Heaton-Harris redefine the term "Car Crash Interview" on R4. He honestly sounds like he's going to give up on the interview or cry at least three times. It is magnificent.
People say "Car Crash Interview", I listen and think that there is a 1-2% chance it could have gone worse. With this one, I cannot see how it could have been worse - maybe actually soiling himself in impotent fury?
Gonna have to track that interview down at lunchtime. Seems like every time a Tory does a car crash interview the next one says " Hold my Pimms"
Just saw that Binners mentioned the Heaton-Harris interview.
I can recommend listening to it as an object lesson in what a fundamentally dishonest man sounds like when the lies and corruption are exposed around him and he is at the end of the road.
It is magnificent.
Here we go. A master class in political interviewing. They must have their heads in their hands at Tory Central Office.
It seems that as most senior cabinet members are all very busy doing something, ANYTHING else, they really are wheeling out the numbskulls for the morning media round
https://Twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1805142013664186390
“FFS, that’s like me saying that if YOU got a new job replacing someone removed for corruption that YOU also would become corrupt (very quickly)! “
It happened with Blair and his deal with Ecclestone. Ecclestone (Boss of Formula 1) gave £1m before the election, Labour pledged to stop all tobacco advertising. Formula 1 racing got the only exemption when Labour passed the Law. Labour, allegedly, asked for another donation, the news of it came out, Labour had to return the £1m. Brown denied all knowledge of a £1m donation, he was Chancellor at the time, so should have taken a glance at Party finances occasionally, and a £1m donation would surely stand out.
I’m really struggling to decide who to vote for. I’m 53 and always voted Labour.
That Heaton-Harris interview is excellent sport (on Brexit, and gambling commission ) and Michal Husain has been doing this kind of thing really well with politicians recently.
Just wish the Today program had been as terrier like on Brexit 8 years ago. I gave up listening because they let Gove and Leadsom etc al get away with spouting such rowlocks and no challenge, just rolling over. Stopped listening then, and now only hear clips on twitter
Brown denied all knowledge of a £1m donation, he was Chancellor at the time, so should have taken a glance at Party finances occasionally, and a £1m donation would surely stand out.
I might be understanding this wrong but is his job not to look at the UK finances rather than the party? I'd assume that would fall to some sort of treasurer.
As for all this talk of Labour being "extreme left" under Corbyn or Portillo being "far right" give it a rest ffs. You're doing nothing but demeaning those terms and just gives the likes of Farage a free pass. 'What do you mean "far right", like Portillo, hawhawhaw...' The extreme left thing is a load of bollocks as well, Starmer’s austerity pledges wouldn't look out of place on the 2010 tory manifesto. In fact, I've a mind to set up a guessing game where you try to guess which is which.
This is the Overton window shift in full effect. Well done Stumpy for your excellent demonstration.
I remember distinctly that Blair was extremely worried about the £1m Ecclestone thing at the time. I believe his quote was "they'll get me for this". But, to be clear, that was ONE million and was a donation to the party as a whole.
Michelle Mone, personally, pocketed £29m from government corruption during a once in a century pandemic. Her actions put NHS staff, my wife included, at risk - deliberately.
£29m. Even allowing for Brexit and Truss-induced inflation, that is way more than £1m. And Mone was in it for herself - with the collusion of other ministers.
Blair was an operator, that is for sure. But that was 25 years ago.
To try to draw any equivalence between the Ecclestone thing and what this Tory government has got up to is so ludicrous as to be obviously partisan.
Chris Heaton-Harris is having a great morning....
https://Twitter.com/carolvorders/status/1805143537303876094
We have reached the stage where the Tories sound like they are parodying The Thick of It. That Heaton-Harris interview was classic "Ben on Newsnight"
The stuttering, the tripping over himself, the lifting of his voice when he thought he said something clever, the attempt (and failure) to outsmart the interviewer by turning the challenge back to her. I am certain he would have been blinking nervously. I can almost hear Ollie saying how Heaton-Harris looks like a cow that has been punched in the face.
FFS, that’s like me saying that if YOU got a new job replacing someone removed for corruption that YOU also would become corrupt (very quickly)!
Or a reflection of my jaded, pessimistic view of Westminster politicians.
Ffs Frank, corruption is corruption. That conforms to every dictionary definition of a bribe. Our company anti-corruption policies would earn me a P45 for what he did. But it's Saint Tony so I guess that gives him a pass.
bribe
/brīb/
noun
1) Money or some other benefit given to a person in power, especially a public official, in an effort to cause the person to take a particular action.2) Something offered to induce another to do something.
I can almost hear Ollie saying how Heaton-Harris looks like a cow that has been punched in the face.
Indeed. Shall we hear a bit more from Chris?
https://Twitter.com/GMB/status/1805144487313690939
“Brown denied all knowledge of a £1m donation, he was Chancellor at the time, so should have taken a glance at Party finances occasionally, and a £1m donation would surely stand out."
“ I might be understanding this wrong but is his job not to look at the UK finances rather than the party? I’d assume that would fall to some sort of treasurer.”
Yes, just like Sturgeon knew nothing about the financial problems of the SNP?
Selective memory, and instant forgetfulness of what went on applies to Brown and Sturgeon. Theres no way Brown didnt know of a £1m donation in 97. That would have been a huge sum back then, and he was, in effect, second in command.
Surely there must come a point when they send someone out for these interviews & they go do you know what - **** it you are right Sunak should suspend them, no idea why he hasn't shall we move on?
And even if they try to play the "innocent until proven guilty" card - a copper has been suspended from his job pending investigation. So a sub-agency of government can suspend an individual employee for this, but people seeking election to high office are not?
Paints a picture, eh?
I can't believe they're so bad at corruption! I guess it is only the tip of the iceberg, though.
I think we are going to find out just how low the Tory vote floor is
What's mad is that we've still got just over a quarter of the campaign to go! How many more clusterfudges can the tories drop on themselves between now and polling day?
Theres no way Brown didnt know of a £1m donation in 97. That would have been a huge sum back then, and he was, in effect, second in command.
What is £1m worth in 2020 money?
Is there any evidence that Brown or Blair pocketed the cash personally and bought a yacht with it?
Did the £1m from Ecclestone put my wife and countless other NHS staff at enhanced risk?
And even if they try to play the “innocent until proven guilty” card
I like how he is trying they dont know when the "gamblers" found out about the GE and need to rely on the gambling commission to find out. Who are going to be going to the tory party and asking "so when did you tell them?"
The wait for the legal process is just such a transparent attempt to kick it into the new leaders problem pile.
Well done Stumpy for your excellent demonstration.
Did you even read my post? There was no mention of Portillo or Corbyn and what I wrote was factually correctly, Labour have moved rightwards under Starmer, by definition moving away from the extreme left, whilst the Tories have moved towards the far right.
I agree Portillo is not far right and there are many to the left of Corbyn, however moving right for the Tories or left for Labour tends to alienate the bulk of voters somewhere in the middle. Labour moving left under Corbyn didn't work and the Tories chasing Reform clearly isn't working.
Whatever your view out of your Overton window it doesn't change recent political reality.
A master class in political interviewing.
Remember when Guy Goma accidentally found himself being interviewed on New 24?
Like that - but shit.
Its always the cover up that finishes them
@lambchop where do you live? Look up the seat on Carol Vorders tactical vote site and vote for whoever that recommendation is ....
This whole thing just shows yet again how politically clueless Rishi and those around him are.
Everyone knows that if you were collered in any job for something like this you'd be immediately suspended. Every day these people aren't suspended its more and more damaging to him
The only reason I can think of that he hasn't suspended them is that somebody has had a quiet word, told him the very large amount of Tory MP's and staffers who are also under investigation and he's thought 'if I suspend these 4, then I'll set a precedent and I'll then also have to suspend X number of people too when their names are revealed'
Surely there must come a point when they send someone out for these interviews & they go do you know what – **** it you are right Sunak should suspend them, no idea why he hasn’t shall we move on?
Didn't we reach the inverse of that with Badenoch and Abbot? The Tory party message got so bad that even Badenoch came out with support for her.
I guess they are worried about losing Montgomeryshire if they ditch Williams
Well the ballot papers are already printed and his (and the Tory Party's) name is on it. All 'ditching' him would really mean is he's an independent. Tory voters who want to vote for him personally could and tory voter who want to vote tory know that even as an 'independent' he's an independent that they know is a conservative. Due process can happen - at the end if he's found innocent and just exceedingly lucky at betting he can be readmitted to the tory party. Even if he's not he's still a tory in all but name both to the constituency and to the party as a whole in opposition - so It should be an easy decision really.
It would be a whole other kettle of fish if the parties were neck and neck and one seat here or there could be all it takes to get the tories over the line. But in the current climate it could not matter less if they lose mongomeryshire or not. But in their handling of it they're turning it into something to lose Richmond and Northallerton over.
So carry on I say.
This all things me of Aristotle. Well it doesn't but if I get that name in there it makes me seem clevererer.
Is an intelligence person still intelligent if they *choose* to use that intelligence to support a stupid position, political or otherwise?
Or...
Is it a case of stupid is as stupid does and however intelligent you are, if you come across as stupid due to *choosing* to support a stupid position... are you in fact, well, stupid?
exceedingly lucky at betting he can be readmitted to the tory party
I know there's a separate thread for this... but what's happened is wrong even if they didn't know the date was nailed on... as insiders they would know it was being seriously considered by the only person with the power to make the decision... if they placed the bet, they should lose the whip if elected (and lose support from the party during the election). Full stop. No need to prove they "knew" 100% the date was set... that's a very Boris Johnson framing.
I know there’s a separate thread for this… but what’s happened is wrong even if they didn’t know the date was nailed on… as insiders they would know it was being seriously considered by the only person with the power to make the decision… if they placed the bet, they should lose the whip if elected (and lose support from the party during the election). Full stop. No need to prove they “knew” 100% the date was set… that’s a very Boris Johnson framing
I'm not saying whats right - just saying what the Tory party could do if they were even half good at being the Tory Party. Even if they were just half good at being Johnson's version of the Tory Party.
This is worth a read. https://conservativehome.com/2024/06/23/are-we-the-baddies/
Not your typical website for balanced election news, but the comments are worth a read too. Not much of balance on the rest of ConservativeHome, who believe David Gauke is the devil incarnate, and things would be much better if the moderates would just go away!
Well the ballot papers are already printed and his (and the Tory Party’s) name is on it. All ‘ditching’ him would really mean is he’s an independent. Tory voters who want to vote for him personally could and tory voter who want to vote tory know that even as an ‘independent’ he’s an independent that they know is a conservative. Due process can happen – at the end if he’s found innocent and just exceedingly lucky at betting he can be readmitted to the tory party. Even if he’s not he’s still a tory in all but name both to the constituency and to the party as a whole in opposition – so It should be an easy decision really.
I don't know, look a the Rochdale by-election. The major partied withdrew their support for their candidates and people didn't vote for them. So it could have a real effect.
Without competency, we are just b*stards.
sums up the last 14yrs quite well.
This all things me of Aristotle.
Well they are certainly arses, if that's what you meant
This is worth a read. https://conservativehome.com/2024/06/23/are-we-the-baddies/
/blockquote>
Blimey, the writer woke up and chose violence 😮He's right through. People will hold their nose and vote Tory if they're competent.
A rising tide lifts all boats and all that jazz. You can be a "b**d" or incompetent, but not both.
The trouble is it's very hard to be a competent "b**d". You can't offer deregulation and high quality (water companies), or low taxes and quality public services (just about any department). At some point in the middle you find a point where you've got a level of public services people want, a tax burden they can afford, and decently functioning economy. They've delivered none of those, and all Rishi's plans either sound like "we're in a hole but we'll keep digging" or short term fixes. At least some of Labours manifesto sounds like it'll still be ongoing in a decade and not canceled by Christmas.
Also, what they seem to miss is they could just not be "b*****d" in the first place. If they genuinely believe they're the competent party, then why does that have to be balanced out by having your nose in the trough and a string of maleficent policies?
Did you even read my post? There was no mention of Portillo or Corbyn and what I wrote was factually correctly, Labour have moved rightwards under Starmer, by definition moving away from the extreme left, whilst the Tories have moved towards the far right.
I did, yes. I was addressing a couple of posts, yours where you talk of Labour finally getting votes as they've moved away from the "extreme left" and another where someone described Portillo as "far right".
The fact is Corbyn wasn't "extreme left" by any measure and the centre ground you speak of was roughly where 2010 Tories stood. That's my point. Overton window, shifted.
As for the F1 money, it's not about whether it personally enriched them. Any organisation with anti-corruption policies will include anything that benefits the organisation. It's all just as wrong.
@alanl I'm not sure what your point about Sturgeon has to do with anything, Brown was the Chancellor for the Exchequer. Not the Labour Party treasurer, leader or even Deputy.
TiRedFull Member
This is worth a read. https://conservativehome.com/2024/06/23/are-we-the-baddies/Not your typical website for balanced election news, but the comments are worth a read too. Not much of balance on the rest of ConservativeHome, who believe David Gauke is the devil incarnate, and things would be much better if the moderates would just go away!
They're 100% right on Farage - he wants the office, but not the job. You'll end up with another BoJo/DTrump - people utterly incapable of governing/building, just pointing holes at what they (superficially believe) is wrong and dictating orders without any real consideration or understanding of the HOW that's required to get from here to there.
Farage is currently busy warming us up for a Trump/Putin deal... isn't he. He's probably happy sacrificing votes to be part of that.
I did ask on the local reform group that if Farage got elected, do they think we'd be an ally of Russia & we'd send troops to Ukraine to help them defeat Zelensky, or would we become a Russian territory overseas & be governed by Putin.
It went down well
Farage v the Daily Mail - isn't it great when wasps fight.
We got a Reform leaflet through the door this morning. Guy who posted it through is someone I've know for years. Thought he had some strange ideas but always seemed a decent kind of bloke. Never had him down as a complete thunderc**t.
“What is £1m worth in 2020 money?Is there any evidence that Brown or Blair pocketed the cash personally and bought a yacht with it? “
No, but it bought Political leverage, and Ecclestone got his way with Formula 1 allowed to advertise tobacco, when it was one of the principles Labour had set out to do, that was the point when I realised there isnt a lot between any of the Parties. Of course, the gap has widened,and these useless Tories have made it a habit rather than an occasional thing, but it showed that Saint Tony was not as clean as he made out.
“ I’m not sure what your point about Sturgeon has to do with anything, Brown was the Chancellor for the Exchequer. Not the Labour Party treasurer, leader or even Deputy. “
Both denied knowing anything about their Parties finances.
I fail to see how Brown could not have known of a £1m donation from one person. Same with Sturgeon who denied knowing anything about the finances, when her own husband had lent the party £1000s, and a lot of money had gone from a separate account. If you are that high up in a Party, there is no way such facts can be hidden from them. They either wantonly did not take any notice of party finances, or they lied. To not show any interest in the Party finances does not seem viable to me, just gossip in the office would know of a very large donation, or our Party hasnt got any money left.
https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1805189903426166937?t=mTlzQsg3Zta5ukQiFfaEIA&s=19
NEW: Keir Starmer says he opposes the teaching of "gender ideology" in schools
What does this even mean? Why even say it?
Edit: a bit of an answer
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24407159.keir-starmer-gender-ideology-not-taught-schools/
During interviews with broadcasters on Monday morning, Starmer was asked if he would scrap the proposed ban on teaching young people in England about transgender identity in school.
“No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender," he said.
Are they just going after JKRs vote? Seems like a bit of a waste as whatever they do won't be cruel enough to trans people for her to be happy.
What does this even mean? Why even say it?
Why say what? Would need to see the actual quote, and the questions/discussion that lead it.
Labour announced that they were going to ditch the Tories' nonsensical "guidelines" around this. Journos bound to be asking questions though, and the Telegraph are absolutely obsessed with what's in your pants and any discussion of us not all being the same in schools.
EDIT: thanks for the edit... I'm still none the wiser.
Oh... my own edit... Labour previously announced they would "review" not "ditch" the guidelines... ie kick into the long grass the other side of an election to try and avoid discussion of it in an election campaign (cowardly but wise).
FWIW it's OK to use the word bastard here on STW and there's no need to be trying to avoid the swear filter (which is against the forum rules).
That’s my point. Overton window, shifted.
Given that both parties are talking about social housing, and energy price caps, and selective nationalisation of things like railways and increasingly the power generating/utilities with Labour suggesting a UK owned power generating 'board' I don't think you can say that the Overton window has shifted all that far to the right, despite the performative cruelty of this group of Tories - who've talked a far-right appeasing game, but managed to actually achieve very little.
A ringing endorsement from one of their new candidates.
Of course, the gap has widened,and these useless Tories have made it a habit rather than an occasional thing, but it showed that Saint Tony was not as clean as he made out.
Goodness, that comes as a huge shock. Don't tell the Mail or it'll be all over for Labour.
The polls seem to have settled again now. I wonder if Reform have topped out?
I see Farage is down in Maidstone today and still defending his pro Putin stance.
Id normally say he's just courting controversy as that's what he does but I can't help but think he has cocked up here. I still don't see it damaging his support much but it's good to see him outed on this issue.
I've joked about it recently but with all the near professional ****wittery going on at the moment I am actually coming to believe that the Tories have planned to lose from the very beginning and Sunak has tipped off his hedge fund buddies about it, along with all the former hedge funders in that shambles of a government that has so successfully screwed up our lives for the last 14 years.
I think the polls are getting worse in their predictions. I cant believe Labour at 42% (why not over 50%? that’s where they should be with this bunch of idiots against them), but Reform above the Tories, no way. Almost 1 in 5 saying they’ll vote for Reform will not turn out to be anywhere near real. If they are lucky, they’ll get 5%. Lib dems probably about right at 12%, they are an irrelevance in the bulk of places. Tories around 25-30%. Greens at 5%, that means around 2 million will vote for them, cannot see that, they got 2.61% in 2019.
2019 was this - Tories 43%, Labour 32%, Libs 12%, SNP 4%, Greens 2.6%.
Why have Labour only gone up 10% since 2019? I think the polls are wrong, I can see them getting 50% of the vote, with a majority of 120+ in the Commons.
During interviews with broadcasters on Monday morning, Starmer was asked if he would scrap the proposed ban on teaching young people in England about transgender identity in school.
“No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender,” he said.
The more he talks the less I like him and what he stands for.
I suppose teaching kids about homosexuality is "ideology" as well?
And before someone jumps in to defend him, there's politically expedient non-answers (eg. We will review such policies in due course blah blah blah) and just nailing your colours to the mast as he has done here.
What does his view have to do with this anyway? I thought Labour policy was determined by the NEC and not just made up by the leader?
Yeah but what you said was:
Brown denied all knowledge of a £1m donation, he was Chancellor at the time, so should have taken a glance at Party finances occasionally
My question was why SHOULD he have taken a glance at party finances when that wasn't his job in any way, shape or form?
I agree it's more likely than not he would have known but not in any official capacity, hence the difference between him and Sturgeon.
I'm going to leave it now otherwise it's just me being argumentative
Did the £1m from Ecclestone put my wife and countless other NHS staff at enhanced risk?
This is just whataboutery. Let's just say it was shitty and bent and shouldn't have happened, and they gave the money back because that was obvious.
I don't know how many people tobacco sponsorship persuaded to start or keep smoking, but however many it did - that would have cost the NHS.
Why have Labour only gone up 10% since 2019? I think the polls are wrong, I can see them getting 50% of the vote, with a majority of 120+ in the Commons.
I'm thinking the same. Have said before on here but I'm thinking hung parliament with Tory protest votes for reform evaporating on the day in swing seats.
A lot of toxic language being used on here mainly about the Tories, which I think reflects on the speakers involved not the politicians. In global terms there's not much difference between Labour and the Tories with both a whisker off centre, and little variance in their stated plans if they are elected. This is to be expected as the UK electorate won't vote for Corbyn type socialism or Le Pen style nationalism.
This is to be expected as the UK electorate won’t vote for Corbyn type socialism or Le Pen style nationalism
You mean the national media pile on wouldn’t let corbyn bring in the type of government that has progressive policies such as the Nordic model
I think the polls are getting worse in their predictions. I cant believe Labour at 42% (why not over 50%? that’s where they should be with this bunch of idiots against them),
It's not a left to right sliding scale.
People can jump from Labour straight to Reform without having to slip through a decade of elections voting Lib Dems and then Tory.
That should be especially obvious in light of Brexit and the collapse of the "Red Wall". Traditional "working class" Labour voters are / were pissed off with the system being stacked against them so voted for whoever offered them the answers they wanted to hear. Someone to blame and some easy solutions that aren't "things will continue to be a bit shit, taxes will rise and any incremental gains will be slow and only really cumulatively visible in another 14 years time."
Part of the political problem in this country (and FPTP) is it presents a fairly binary choice where the left has been arbitrarily "progressive" and the right "conservative". There's the re-branded SDP doing a sort of unpopular Reform-Left, but no economically conservative Greens for example. If the greens were a true single issue party rather than having to have frequently unpopular opinions on drugs, wars, economics, etc they would probably get more votes and actually put pressure on both parties rather than just being the party of a post Corby rout from Labours Left that happens to like renewables.
*Usual caveats about populations and elections being won by targeting hypothetical groups that represent wider populations characteristics.
To pick up on one small point re green vote share in 2019. Green's lost quite a lot of voters to Corbyn led labour.
National vote share and seats are very different things. Labour could well end up with a 200 seat majority with less votes than in 2019. Such is the way of FPTP.
I can see them getting 50% of the vote, with a majority of 120+ in the Commons.
Most of the polling sites ARE predicting well in excess of 120 seat majority.
Nothing to do with the media, Corbyn was a well known conviction politician prior to becoming Labour leader and his position and political views have always been clear. He's someone everyone has a view on, whether you agree with them or not! The country just wasn't willing to move to a Nordic type system overnight. The Labour MPs grasped this quickly hence the multiple no confidence votes they initiated.
A lot of toxic language being used on here mainly about the Tories, which I think reflects on the speakers involved not the politicians.
I'll be the first to put my hand up and say I have zero time for the Tories but there are millions that feel similarly angry.
As for that anger not being due to the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the Tories and instead an issue of their critics, I have to really disagree on that point. They, the Tories, are reaping what they have so eagerly sown.
Being as objective as I possibly can, I can't think of a British government so utterly incapable of good governance in modern history.
As noted elsewhere, vote share and seats gained are not the same thing, so for all the 'labour on only 40%' and 'tory and Reform together can make almost 40%' - I tend to give more credence to the sophisticated calculations done by the professional analysts and how that translates in different areas.
Remember - it would be entirely possible to win all 650 seats in a 5 party fight with only 20.001% of the total vote.
Let’s just say it was shitty and bent and shouldn’t have happened, and they gave the money back because that was obvious.
It was shitty and bent. But it wasn't me who was trying to create an equivalence between £1m that to our knowledge didn't personally enrich Blair/Brown 25 years ago - and the conduct of the Tories since 2019.
🤷♂️