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"Labour leader unable to define ‘working class’
What a time to be alive!"
It's quite a difficult concept to pin down in contemporary society though surely - it's almost a meaningless term
Dan Evans book - A Nation of Shopkeepers quite an interesting read
It’s quite a difficult concept to pin down in contemporary society though surely
Yep, the number of varying definitions with a quick Google suggest it is very much open. I would say I was working class (lorry driver dad, part time dinner lady and then home help mum) when under 20 but would now describe myself as middle class due to lifestyle, job, money etc,. I guess it is fluid but could I become working class again now that I have tasted middle class life?
The only thing I definitely cannot become is upper class but we all hate them anyway don't we...
We shouldn't confuse class with status. Educational attainment clearly can make a difference in the workplace in terms of salary, conditions etc but many/most people are only a few salary cheques away from deep doo doo. You might see yourself as 'middle classs' but ultimately your interests are shared with the 'working class' as you are all employees. These divisions can be exploited nicely to divide and rule when people are encouraged to think they are 'a cut above' and they end up voting and acting against their real interests.
im still on the fence between centrist moderate and centrist nutter.
last week i met a moderate nutter.
in other news, anyone catch the SDP party political broadcast last night - it was captivating and hilarious in equal measure
If you want to understand how complex the terms 'working class' or 'middle class' are, try explaining them to a foreigner. How you can be a working class multi-millionaire or be both poor and middle-class tends to confuse them.
It's not really because we're particularly weird about these issues, it's that the words are heavily overloaded here. In the USA they are just categories of income, nothing more. What we would call middle or working class attitudes still exist, they just aren't called that.
In any case, I think in the UK there are still traditional working class people and traditional middle class people; but there are now big areas that don't fall into either definition.
Tory government worst in post war history?
Not sure why it needs the question mark
Here in 2024 I would struggle with that one too despite being from a 1950s solidly working class background.
I remember reading a simple definition along the lines of
"Working class"
If work stopped tomorrow you'd be in trouble by the end of the month, Basically it's hand to mouth with no significant regular savings and you don't regularly spend much on non-essentials. Rents a home.
"Middle Class"
You could take a month off work and nothing much would change. You go on holidays, you have hobbies, life is generally good. If you feel like you're struggling then someone will give you a slap and tell you things could be worse, because they could. Owns a home.
"Upper class"
You'd be in trouble if the people working for you stopped tomorrow. Owns a Buy-to-let.
It's only a problem when people start with the inverse snobbery, or trying to define it by industrial sectors. Someone working on an IT helpdesk is far more "working class" than say a worker on oil rig.
In any case, I think in the UK there are still traditional working class people and traditional middle class people; but there are now big areas that don’t fall into either definition.
I think that's a different matter with entrenched prejudice against regional accents and the like and the idea that class is somehow defined by what you mean by Tea or Dinner and what you call a bread roll.
TINAS that's way off. It has nothing to do with money.
@thisisnotaspoon Surely ‘Upper Class’ means aristos (who of course might not have all that much money, but equally might own half of Sutherland)?
For a different take on class, and for amusement only…not serious….very lighthearted and adds nothing to the thread so don’t crucify me
working class : ikea/argos flat pack furniture
middle class : John Lewis (I don’t know any other upmarket furniture shops)
upper class : inherited furniture/came with the house/estate etc
The most expensive item of furniture I’ve bought is my secretlab desk/computer chair
middle class : John Lewis (I don’t know any other upmarket furniture shops)
You've let yourself down there, John Lewis is not middle class for furniture - it is barely above Ikea.
You’ve let yourself down there, John Lewis is not middle class for furniture – it is barely above Ikea.
Is it?, I’ve never been in a John Lewis but always considered it expensive from what I’ve seen online
I admit I’m a total country bumpkin, after 30years in my 1bed council bungalow I’ve still got bare floorboards throughout as I never saw the point of carpets so I guess i’m not best placed to pontificate on furniture either with only one chair in my living room,
That moreincommon poll is bobbins based purely on the Scottish projections
I'm more inclined to think the final result will be somewhere between savanta and yougov, which is ghastly for the Tories either way
I'm always fascinated by class, it's almost impossible to explain but it is all around us and I think identifiable in others more simply than ourselves
My fil is a lawyer retd, but solid working class. I'm from working/middle class parents but have inherited furniture. I kind of feel somewhere between working and middle class but don't feel I'm either.
Speaking of YouGov here's an interesting survey by them which shows some similarities with GE voting.
I’m looking forward to super Friday, that’s for sure
Also put your money in popcorn future’s, there’s gonna be a run on it soon
When a 1997 level defeat is looking like the best possible case scenario for the Tories it's certainly going to be fun! The internal tory bunfight over the direction of the party and who will be leader will also be interesting
im still on the fence between centrist moderate and centrist nutter.
last week i met a moderate nutter.
I'd be fascinated to hear what you think the difference is between 'centrist nutter' and 'moderate nutter', and how that compares to a simple 'centrist moderate'?
The Centrist Nutters are a moderate normal group whereas The Moderate Nutters are are a hardcore Centrist group. These groups are holding talks about a merger as both fear fear the emergence of a group calling itself The Ultra Normalist Faction which it says contains no Nutters at all sometimes known The Soft Centres
Where do the Splitters fit into that?
And are the HoneyNuts disciples of BoJo?
Well if nobody else is going to:
BoJo's followers are Fruit Loops but Sunak's are toast.
I'm not a soft centre, more a nut brittle kind of guy, but conflicted cos I think I am of the left centre right faction, but on Tuesdays I am also a bit right centre left.
But ultimately I want the tories out, and I'll vote to do that rather than screw it up by worrying about which hue of centre left/socialdemocrat/libdem I am cos we can't do any more Tory shite
Poll from GBNews pundit Matt Goodwin has some interesting numbers..
https://twitter.com/alexharmstrong/status/1803496184658485254?t=nhTxRV5Tr3cd8HYbypvG7Q&s=19
It's absolute bullshine (Goodwin is a hack)
But still funny
Meanwhile CCHQ abandoning seats as they don't have the funds to fight the tough ines
https://twitter.com/tomorrowsmps/status/1803532716303933544?t=EA8YVtsylZySmWlHUp1auA&s=19
Another Tory MP candidate being investigated for betting on GE date..
https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1803544051041390608?t=QjzcmFBwrb0apAHPCe7WDg&s=19
BillMCFull Member
That John Caudwell of Phones4U got it right, ”What Keir has done…is taken all the left out of the Labour party, and he’s come out with a set of values and principles in complete alignment with my views as a commercial capitalist.”
Jeezus, what an eminently dislikable person…….Ive just caught up with this story from the video below, who the hell needs billions?……..the entire world will be ****ed if folk like this are allowed to proliferate and cosy up to our “supposed” caring/sharing political parties. We are all aware of the ability to offshore companies/money etc, how little tax the super rich pay and how much their wealth has increased since 2008 so unless there is a major upheaval and concerted effort around the world to make society fairer for all then this country and s9 many others will eventually be reduced to a dystopian real life hunger games.
My mate was right when he took his lifestyle and house (originally only 3 walls of a shepherd cottage and 6 acres of moor and forest from the 1800s when he bought it for £17,000) off the grid completely 15 years ago - he could see what was coming, deep into carsphairn hills and up a road only his jacked hilux can get up, finished house (turfed roof of course) now fully runs on solar/hydro/car batteries, his home built stove does hot water and is piped through to underfloor heating and a compost toilet that works really well, his rough moorland eventually turned into a few acres of productive land with goats for milk, he’s built poly tunnels as well, yet I thought he had gone absolutely fruitloop at the time and said so but he and his gf love it…….now I see why.
Meanwhile CCHQ abandoning seats as they don’t have the funds to fight the tough ines
that'll be us 🙂 not that I've seen anything from them anyway, though I may have seen the sitting MP with his dad outside a recently closed pub looking through a list of some sort in one of more rural parts of his constituency on a recent bike ride. Not seen a single vote tory sign.
What a difference a day - or two or three - makes...yesterday our constituency leaflet/marketing guru took delivery of 750kg of our 'phase 2 leaflets' which feature polling showing Labour and tory tied on 39% in Newark - jenrick is the squatting tory incumbent.
Leaflets have been bagged, tagged and delivered to volunteers for a real push to get 20,000+ into letterboxes by close of play Friday with the balance of c15,000 by mid next week.
Today's polling shows Labour down to 35% and tories down to 33%; Reform have gained - as expected. Tory support is only going one way and Reform are at/near their ceiling.
Newark is a very white constituency so it hasn't surprised me that some doorstep conversations with the older generation and usually in the manicured gardens of their detached houses have quickly migrated from...yes, we need a change and whichever party forms the next government will have a big job on their hands to - all these boats, migrants, Palestinian protests, ethnic groups receiving preferential treatment, white people becoming the minority and on it goes.
The bigotry and racism is covered by only the thinnest veneer of normality.
Hope you get a good turnout and final result Frank, I doubt my veneer of politeness would hold up when confronted with such views time and time again on the doorstep.
I doubt my veneer of politeness would hold up when confronted with such views time and time again on the doorstep.
Annoyingly I read a story about how tory canvassers and labour ones were fighting on the doorsteps in the welwyn hatfield area where I live. Sadly not my door since I would have lent a few sharp pointy things to the labour side before settling back to enjoy the show.
So far no one seems to give a toss though about the area. I havent had a single piece of recycling so I assume the parties have checked which wards are switchable and are ignoring everyone else.
I will keep an eye on the predictions but currently despite my concerns about Starmers right wing tendencies labour do seem the best bet to kick out the web marketing scumbag which is, well choose a name but lets go with, Corinne Stockheath since that might give some of the right wing culture warriors a heart attack about defending.
I would prefer to be slightly to the west though to vote lib dem with a clear conscience.
Normally we get loads of stuff, so far weve had a labour leaflet and thats it
funny thing is we have a failed Tory councilor on our street, he hasnt done anything since the locals when he was leafleting all over the place, he does have a vote tory sign in his window (hes also a bit of a wrongun- more than once had shouting matches in the street with his brother who then tears off in his porche from their large detatched house)
the local Tory candidate is on social media a lot, but seems a complete lemon
I could say that about people on all parts of the political spectrum, there is nothing about that which is unique or observed only in centrists.
This would be an amazing counter if only I hadnt noted it wasnt restricted to them. The difference is the centrist nutters tend to pat themselves on the back about how this doesnt apply to them.
If it helps a good way of separating them is the sensible centrists are the Lib dems who realise despite a fairly decent number of people supporting them they are always going to be in coalition (lets hope the orange book fruitcakes arent dominant in the mps at the time) outside of PR vs those who figure its best to control either labour or the tories and then start shouting about elections are run from the centre before being confused about ending up with brexit.
I don’t even know what this means.
Lets start with the only way to win is the centre and the gammons ranting about the silent majority. Do you seriously think that the majority of the UK vote is in the centre? If so can you show your workings starting with how the tories generally end up on top despite having a minority of the votes.
Can you share any quotes of anywhere you’ve read this opinion?
Let start with binners rabid frothing about anyone who doesnt meet with his worldview. I can throw in some childish photos ranting about 6th formers if you want.
Why shouldn’t they if that’s what they believe is a sensible viewpoint to have?
The question is whether it is valid or should they be thinking deeper about it.
Lets take an easy example of Joe Minchin who is often quoted as being a moderate democrat (he has now gone "independent" but the point still stands). In reality he is well over halfway to crazy town so is it sensible to call him a moderate?
From twitter and no means to independently verify but GiveanX is a voter registration drive
"BREAKING: A total of 2,898,265 people have registered to vote since the General Election was called on May 22nd. Of those who registered, 744,631 were under 25, and 896,825 were aged between 25 and 34, totaling 1,641,456
Normally we get loads of stuff, so far weve had a labour leaflet and thats it
The locals were livelier but this is really quiet.
Shame really because I would love to have a chat with Shapps. Leaving politics aside the fact he is a dodgy web marketing scumbag who overfirmly denies it when he is caught out makes me want to have a full and frank discussion with him.
@somafunk - the recommended approach from the campaign team is just to listen politely, (gently) disagreeing, make excuses about more leaflets to deliver, say goodbye and then curse them soundly.
I would love to argue with them, tell them they're wrong, invite then to put up or shut up; that would quickly get me suspended or expelled.
It's really concerning that so many of them walk amongst us but the consolation is they're a dying breed.
From twitter and no means to independently verify but GiveanX is a voter registration drive
Certainly hope that’s correct, it could make a significant difference come the 5th………will the 5th be our version of Independence Day/victory day/whatever over the Tory stranglehold?
It’s really concerning that so many of them walk amongst us but the consolation is they’re a dying breed.
Pat on the back/nod of the head in admiration from me for perseverance among them, although I don’t agree with the policies it’s the only chance for “possible” change and I hope there is the slightest chance we get a “ta-da” moment once Labour have had their feet under the table for a while
I am struggling to understand why one of Sunaks bodyguards has been arrested due to his lucky bet and yet the tory mp (lets skip over that he is technically not one right now) hasnt been given the former was only found out after the gambling commission dug into the latter's rather fortunate bet.
Beeb confirming a second Tory candidate has been found to have made a target too fortuitous "flutter" as posted further up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11j1q3y13o
Christ, what an utterly corrupt bunch of absolute shit heads we have had to endure for nearly a decade and a half. Incredible.
All politicians are NOT the same.
Her X account is still up for anyone wanting to ask for any gambling tips. Ahem.
Against a backdrop of 'opportunism', venality, corruption, inappropriate behaviour - and more - by tories, I think it's essential that Starmer makes it clear by his actions starting from 5th July that anything and everything which doesn't pass the smell test results in...sanction/ suspension/expulsion without any exceptions.
Against a backdrop of ‘opportunism’, venality, corruption, inappropriate behaviour – and more – by tories, I think it’s essential that Starmer makes it clear by his actions starting from 5th July that anything and everything which doesn’t pass the smell test results in…sanction/ suspension/expulsion without any exceptions.
Agree, and heavily showing my bias would I would be surprised if there are as many dodgy Labour people as Tory people. And by dodgy I mean in a tory way not those genuine Labour people who Starmer just doesn't happen to like.
Do people seriously pay 3 quid for a copy of the Telegraph! **** me!
We got a flyer from Labour even though we have a Labour poster in the window and that the candidate is 100% nailed on. There's also a bloke of mature years who runs up and down the Eccy Rd in full red kit carrying a Vote Labour placard. Quite impressive commitment.
I’m really enjoying the SW resurgence of the LD. Labour have no chance here in the South Cotswolds, but the LD are finally level pegging with the Conservatives. Finally!
Yes, no matter how bad the seat predictions are for the tories they always seem to show them winning in the borders and here in Aberdeenshire. May explain why we’ve not even had any SNP leaflets so far. Just two from the tories and one LD 🙁
I am struggling to understand why one of Sunaks bodyguards has been arrested due to his lucky bet and yet the tory mp... hasnt
The police officer was supposedly charged with misconduct in public office, and the hint was that Craig Williams might be looked at for cheating under s42 of the Gambling Act. These are both quite different and rare offences: it looks like only one person was ever convicted under the Gambling Act offence. I wonder if it is actually that clear whether having inside info really is cheating - although tbf these solicitors seem to think it clearly is.
Also, it seems like the police are investigating the police officer but it's the Gambling Commission that is investigating the politician. And finally arrest is not a punitive measure - you don't need to arrest someone in order to charge them.
If I were a gambling man, I'd bet that the police officer is charged and convicted and the politician isn't.
I can't read that torygraph headline without surfaris popping into it.
If I were a gambling man, I’d bet that the police officer is charged and convicted and the politician isn’t.
What baffles me slightly is the fact that the bets were placed at all - not in the sense that the it was poor behaviour on the part of the politicians / police involved (the sums bet / won were hardly lifechanging so it all seems like a stupid lapse than the plot of an Oceans 11 spin off)
What I don't understand is who in their right mind offers the bet? You offer odds on outcomes that involve chance. One horse might be demostrably better than another but circumstances on the day mean the outcome is never certain. I can see how you could offer odds on the outcome of an election, and on aspects of the outcome of an election - because for all the polling there are going to be surprises of one sort or another. Up til the finish line / final whistle / moment the results are called no-one knows that information on which a bet is decided with certainty
But the date of the election - someone plans that, and then announces the plan. So theres period (possibly since January according to some sources) between the decision and the announcement where there is knowledge that insiders (or opportunists, or spies, or the cleaners) will have that the bookies don't. Surely they'd be mad to offer bets on that.
Without derailing too far, the police officer was referred by the gambling commission. How did the nookies know that he was a close protection officer? Surely that's a serious worry. By it's very nature that job should be kept quiet.
I'd also be pushing for the arrest of the mps if I was the officers federation contact.
So theres period (possibly since January according to some sources) between the decision and the announcement where there is knowledge that insiders (or opportunists, or spies, or the cleaners) will have that the bookies don’t. Surely they’d be mad to offer bets on that.
I'm not aware that bookies check your occupation or why you picked the date you are betting on? Hence rules around cheating.
By it’s very nature that job should be kept quiet.
Close protection officers are the ones you see on the telly every day, not exactly secret. But again, the bookies won't check your occupation - they'll be checking who they paid out to on the election date bet and working backwards from there - presumably in support of the Gambling Commission and Police.
Suspect the result will lie somewhere between those two maps in the telegraph. Can see why swinney has played the independance card to get the voters out in Scotland
Just saw the Torygraph headline and figured they were trying to scare Tory supporters to get their postal votes in.
How did the nookies know that he was a close protection officer?
The Gambling Commission asked the bookies to review all election date bets. The bookies will know all the names, DOBs and addresses of the punters (and maybe their occupation - do you have to mention it when signing up as part of KYC checks?). The police would have located the officer just using the info the bookies gave to them.
Surely they’d be mad to offer bets on that.
I'd assumed that most of these novelty bets are just disguised marketing (it gets Paddy Power's name in the press) and they don't allow too much money to be staked on them. But maybe I'm wrong.
I’m not aware that bookies check your occupation
I'm not sure it's a question of occupation. You bet on future events where the outcome is unknown. Not on events where the outcome will have been decided, just not yet announced. You're effectively betting on a past event.
The bookies will know all the names, DOBs and addresses of the punters (and maybe their occupation – do you have to mention it when signing up as part of KYC checks?).
I think some KYC checks require you to say if you are a politically exposed person. Not sure if gambling sites require that though.
Politically exposed persons should be identified by World Check or whatever KYC screening platform the institution is using behind the scenes. I don't know if bookies, banks etc ask the client if they're a PEP during sign up - I wouldn't rely on it much as you can't trust what clients say and PEP is a technical concept. I'd have to look up what definition UK bookies have to use because a police officer wouldn't necessarily be a PEP everywhere. Williams definitely would be.
Was out with a couple of work colleagues yesterday, voted tory last time but in safe labour constituencies. They are solid dead set on voting Reform now. Said they'd never vote conservative again and finally they had someone 'who speaks up for the working class white man' whatever that means. I suppose that's good right now as its taking votes away from the tories, but it's going to be trouble down the road for labour after 5 years of more of the same.
What sort of guy is Starmer and what can we make of his decision making record?
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jul/29/paul-chambers-twitter-joke-airport
Authoritarian, vindictive, overbearing? Perfect material for a socialist party leader to be fair.
A great judge of character.
Decided not to prosecute police over the killing of Ian Tomlinson. Man of the people!
His track record is not what you'd call glowing.
Is that the sound of a barrel being scraped?
I think you need to be a bit more aware of what you're doing with posts like these.
Without derailing too far, the police officer was referred by the gambling commission. How did the nookies know that he was a close protection officer
They dont seem to have known hence why if it wasnt for the tory mp the cop would have got away with it.
The gambling commission got the list of "lucky" gamblers and then they seem to have then asked the tories and I assume the met "recognise anyone?"
What sort of guy is Starmer and what can we make of his decision making record?
What's your experience of being a Director of Public Prosecutions?
How did the nookies know that he was a close protection officer
Judging by the rosette, I'd guess they had some inside info from an MP.
About Laura Saunders - the story gets better:
The BBC can reveal this morning that the Conservative candidate being looked into by the Gambling Commission over a bet relating to the timing of the general election is married to the party’s Director of Campaigns.
Laura Saunders, the party’s candidate in Bristol North West, has worked for the Tories since 2015.
It is not known when the bet was placed or for how much money.
She is married to Tony Lee, who is the Conservative Party’s Director of Campaigns.