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If you asked the ‘I couldn’t vote for Corbyn’ people ‘why?’ they’d struggle to give an answer.
Some thought he would be genuinely dangerous on the world stage, others didn't want to be hectored by a North London elitist who'd never experienced life like they had (lack of opportunity, lack of housing, lack of everything really) others thought he was condescending and patronising, or just out of touch. More then Corbyn, my memory of canvassing was the flood of policy announcements that folks couldn't keep up with, it felt overwhelming and a bit too off-hand, like they'd been pulled from the back of a cereal packet. The free govt internet was very badly received in the areas I walked around "They'll use it to spy on us", "Do they think we're too poor to buy our own?" Then of course the B word spread all over the top of it all, and the fear that it was just going to drag on and on.
The observable change since Corbyn’s second loss is a massive increase in support for right wing Labour.
I think you’ll find it’s anti-Tory sentiment.
We've gone from "right wing Labour's popularity is a bad thing" to "right wing Labour isn't popular". Labour currently has a 23 point lead over its nearest rival.
It's the reality distortion forcefield, captain, she cannae take it much longer!
a North London elitist who’d never experienced life like they had (lack of opportunity, lack of housing, lack of everything really)
To be fair, I don't think Corbyn is a North London elitist. He came from an upper middle class background, but he's a North London Poly dropout who never lived some kind of elite lifestyle rolling around in limousines, patronising Sexy Fish and going on skiing trips with Bunty and Bingo and Fatty FeatherstoneShaw from his old prep school. He's not a Sunak or a Johnson. And neither is he from the Labour aristocracy like Mandelson, the Milibands or S Kinnock.
To be fair to the folks scraping by living on the A646 to Halifax, anyone who can afford a house in North Islington is somewhere on an elitist scale. But I take your point.
And you believe that to be down to Labour charisma rather than people getting totally pissed off with the tory party
Not charisma - but definitely the new leadership and new policies. I invite you to look at the link above of Johnson's approval ratings in 2019. They were poor. People were already pissed off with the Tories. But Corbyn’s were far, far worse.
You are trying to suggest that no Labour Party could have won the 2019 elections because the Tories were unbeatable. That is totally in denial of the history.
If 2024 were just a story about anti-Tory sentiment, the Lib Dems and SNP and Plaid Cymru and Greens ould be doing much better.
anyone who can afford a house in North Islington is somewhere on an elitist scale
I do take your point about the perception, but even then yes and no. IIRC the house he owns was the council house that he privatised at a massive discount thanks to Thatcher's right to buy.
He's lived there since the 80s and before Islington was glamorous (and it's not all glamorous: "The Indices of Multiple Deprivation (IMD) 2019, ranked Islington as the 53rd most deprived local authority area in England (out of 317 local authorities) and 6th most deprived local authority in London. It has the 10th highest level of income deprivation affecting children, and 4th highest in England for income deprivation affecting older people...").
You are trying to suggest that no Labour Party could have won the 2019 elections because the Tories were unbeatable. That is totally in denial of the history.
Nope, I am suggesting that the current Labour Party under Starmer would not have beaten Johnson in 2019 and his get Brexit done election.
What do you think would have drawn people to Starmer in 2019 when up against Johnson?
Bloody hell, we're going back to Corbyn could've saved us stuff, it's as if the complete humiliation of 2019 never happened, the country voted, and it showed that the consensus was that there wasn't much confidence in him, his shadow government, or their policies.
All this 'Right Wing Labour' nonsense is just depressing, as if they actually believe we live in some kind of socialist country, all it needs is the proper left government to give it to the masses, reality is we live in a country where there are people who are completely left leaning, others who are completely right leaning, and a hell of a lot who live in the middle, and select what they like depending on how it affects them. I'm not even sure those going on about this know what the actual line is between left and right, or how politics actually works in reality.
I used to live in Highbury and this stereotype about elites etc is about as accurate as northerners keeping whippets and coal in the bath. But I guess if it goes with the narrative it will be used (alongside images of public schoolboy Footlights-type humour ffs.)
Is this important? Johnson had charisma, May certainly didn’t. Why does a Labour win have to be ‘a movement’? why can it not be ‘ Let those other fellas have a go?’
I wasn't;t referring to personal charisma but more the charisma of the Labour Party as something to draw people to vote for them.
As for it being simply ‘ Let those other fellas have a go?’ that is about as defeatist as the post up there about people just wanting a few polices that may make things better.
It's weird how we don't run a presidential system, but it's all about the leader...?
Anyway, survations phone poll today has tories in 3rd place on the vote calculator sites
If the tories hit 20% or less and the Reform numbers are real then it might actually happen!
Lib Dems hoovering up in the blue wall has been underplayed imo
Lib Dems hoovering up in the blue wall has been underplayed imo
🤞🏻
It’s weird how we don’t run a presidential system, but it’s all about the leader…?
Farage was stating only yesterday that it was more like a Presidential election but that was only to defect attention away from the fact his candidates are coming out with more racist shit by the day that he cannot defend.
You know Labour are just about to win a (probably) historic amount of seats, and blow the Tories to the four winds in a couple of weeks, and yet this is defeatist? Why do you feel that it is?
Could you not view it as defeatist if what was wanted is a Labour victory that was won by a genuinely left Labour party? Its seems fairly clear to me that some posters want the labour party to be something it currently isn't.
Although, I'm 50 in the not too distant future and no real (by UK standards) left wing party has ever won en election in my lifetime, and I'm not seeing any signs of it in the next decade at least either.
My dispassionate take on Corbyn?
I voted for him twice.
He's not the enemy, though he holds some responsibility for Brexit scrapping though at the referendum.
Probably a great MP to have if you live in his constituency.
He's now part of the history of the Labour party, not its future.
That's where I'm at anyway and YMMV.
You know Labour are just about to win a (probably) historic amount of seats, and blow the Tories to the four winds in a couple of weeks, and yet this is defeatist? Why do you feel that it is?
It is defeatist because if they win just because it is to ‘ Let those other fellas have a go?’ that is hardly a great base to be elected on. Especially given that when they have a go very little is actually going to change unless again they go against everything they have been saying.
But then apparently people don't want change they just want a couple of policies that may work
You seriously don't find that a bit of a depressing place to be in?
Could you not view it as defeatist if what was wanted is a Labour victory that was won by a genuinely left Labour party?
It's a part of the Left's true-isms isn't it? that by definition that any given Labour govt is never going to be a "proper" left wing Labour party for some folks, and that every opportunity that Labour left get to an election with their hands on the controls of the labour party they'll loose and it's always some-one else's fault. I've been a member all my adult life, and these have never changed. I doubt they ever will.
You seriously don’t find that a bit of a depressing place to be in?
I've been canvassing long enough to know that huge swathes of the population couldn't tell you which party is in power, amazing as it may seem to us who follow politics, there are folks who don't know if Tories are right wing or left wing, or even what that actually means in terms of ideology, there are folks are literally just learning now that Sunak went to public school, or that Starmer's dad was a toolmaker.
That there is a movement behind the Labour party, and that some of that is driven by folks actually saying "Who are the party that aren't Sunak's lot? I'll vote for them" is a politically decisive point they've perhaps never made in their entire lives before, an actual considered choice. That so many Tory supporters are looking to change is amazing in of itself, that they'll go against their long held tribal instincts and vote for the other team in overwhelming numbers despite the papers they read warning about nonsense like "super majorities"
This election may be the end of the Tories for a generation. How can you call it a defeat or depressing?
Personally the thought of it, is making me giddy
It is defeatist because if they win just because it is to ‘ Let those other fellas have a go?’ that is hardly a great base to be elected on. Especially given that when they have a go very little is actually going to change unless again they go against everything they have been saying.
But then apparently people don’t want change they just want a couple of policies that may work
You seriously don’t find that a bit of a depressing place to be in?
What exactly is it you'd want, a new government to come in and try to change everything as fast at they can, that's a recipe for disaster and a fast way out of government.
Governing will take time, and it'll be trade offs, sacrifices and so on, i think it's far from depressing that the country have had enough of the tories, and want the current labour party to have a chance to improve the country with the same resources.
What exactly is it you’d want, a new government to come in and try to change everything as fast at they can, that’s a recipe for disaster and a fast way out of government.
Changing anything at all would be a start but I will give up with this as you are clearly happy with it as it is. Must be a nice place to be.
But then apparently people don’t want change
I don't think most folks want a socialist revolution in the same way they don't want to live in the Tories 'dog eat dog winner takes all unbridled capitalism' either.
IME on the doorstep, most folks, want: their taxes to be affordable, and actually go towards services that actually exist and provide the helping hand that people need, they want the cops and ambulance to come when they dial 999, and they want the GP and hospital appt. to be in a fortnight not 12 months. They want to be able to drive down the road with out it breaking their car, or the train fare to be cheaper, and they want opportunities for their kids, and after that, they want to be left alone.
Some people just want a bolshevik revolution led my Corbyn even though the lumpenproletariat will only vote Labour when they move to the centre.
just like the headbanger ERG/Reform loons on the other side.
I'll quite happily settle for the middle ground with some dull and boring competence for a while.
Labour leader unable to define 'working class'
What a time to be alive!
I’ve been canvassing long enough to know that huge swathes of the population couldn’t tell you which party is in power
I come across this all the time. And/or people confuse whichever party runs their local council with the Westminster govt. I think this was a factor in the red wall collapse in 2019.
What exactly is it you’d want, a new government to come in and try to change everything as fast at they can, that’s a recipe for disaster and a fast way out of government.
Possibly but not changing things is a recipe for disaster as well. Everyone seems to acknowledge the tory policies have ****ed the country so its a bit difficult to follow the logic we should therefore leave them mostly in place.
There is a need for a radical change to try and turn around from the death spiral the tories have put us in. Labour will have five years to make decent progress on that otherwise in 2029 all the tory failures will be blamed on them.
Trouble is the economic policies of the country are not the middle ground, so just thinking ok just a bit of sensible management is going to change life outcomes is a false hope. If we want to improve peoples lives, if we want to defeat the culture war, then the only way is to change the economy to work for the majority.
All a bit of "sensible boring politics" is going to achieve is the same things as we are experiencing now. The corruption of the current Tories doesn't make much fundamental difference to peoples lives, and focusing on what they get caught doing rather than what they get away with is just a distraction to the fundamental way the economy is geared up to benefit just a few. Because the main thrust of the current economic policies has been to legalise the corruption, so just pretending the system works and just needs different leaders is going to change sweet **** all, and when people realise that labour aren't working it will just mean another swing to populism at a later date.
Can you all just **** off back to the Corbyn thread and have your spats over there please?
Meanwhile, here in 2024....
The little fella braved meeting the public this morning. Not in person obviously - what a frightful thought - but in an LBC phone in.
He was roundly taken apart by everyone, did his usual repeated parroting of soundbites and finished of with a caller referring to him as a ‘pound shop Farage’, which is now pretty much what he is
Nope, I am suggesting that the current Labour Party under Starmer would not have beaten Johnson in 2019 and his get Brexit done election.
What do you think would have drawn people to Starmer in 2019 when up against Johnson?
The only people I know who openly admitted voting Tory in 2019 didn't claim to have been voting "for" Johnson, they were voting "against" Corbyn. Now that is probably not 100% true, but it was clear that at least some of the electorate were not sucked in by Johnson's "charm" but were put off by the Corbyn factor.
We can't wind the clock back to find out - but its always worth baring in mind that "winning" an election is not necessarily an endorsement for you - it can just as easily be a resounding rejection of the alternative. Indeed, its likely that a Labour win in a few weeks is not so much a desire for SKS as PM or the Labour policies, as a rejection of the 2024 version of the Conservatives and Sunak.
The corruption of the current Tories doesn’t make much fundamental difference to peoples lives
Tell that to anyone whose family member died needlessly because of the mismanagement of COVID...or anyone whose public services are being cut back to pay for the VIP Fast Lane procurement...or whose mortgage went up because of Truss's insertion as headbanging PM...or who was negatively affected by Brexit made in Tufton St by dark money...
IME on the doorstep, most folks, want: their taxes to be affordable, and actually go towards services that actually exist and provide the helping hand that people need, they want the cops and ambulance to come when they dial 999, and they want the GP and hospital appt. to be in a fortnight not 12 months. They want to be able to drive down the road with out it breaking their car, or the train fare to be cheaper, and they want opportunities for their kids, and after that, they want to be left alone.
Sounds good, who do you suggest they vote for? You are not telling them with a straight face that the current Labour Party is the answer are you? If so how exactly are all those improvements going to happen seeing as people don't want change and luckily for them Labour are not suggesting it.
Sounds good, who do you suggest they vote for? You are not telling them with a straight face that the current Labour Party is the answer are you? If so how exactly are all those improvements going to happen seeing as people don’t want change and luckily for them Labour are not suggesting it.
You seem to have an axe to grind about Labour looking odds on to win this time round, people do want change, otherwise the tories would be a shoe in, you're already stating there'll be no change, and Labour haven't had a single minute in power yet!
Sounds good, who do you suggest they vote for?
I think folks are voting "not the Tories thanks". Every election is either 'time for a change' or 'more of the same'
Time will tell if Starmer's Labour get it broadly right, or mostly wrong. If most people feel like their lives are improving (or maybe even this time, not getting worse) then after the last 14 of the Tories trying to "make the state smaller/destroying public services" [insert your own ideological phrase here] then I think most folks are in the mood for some politics that isn't the first thing on the news every morning, or that their PM is being compared globally to a lettuce, or that their PM's own cabinet have resigned because he lies so much, or the their PM is richer than the King.
Parliamentary democracy is the steady improvement of people's lives, not revolution. I'd be happy if that purpose gets restored.
Labour leader unable to define ‘working class’
Can you, though?
What Blair knew, what Starmer knows, Corbyn ignored, and the Tories have forgotten (but are almost certainly going to be painfully reminded of on the evening of July 4) is that the majority of the electorate are moderates who live in the middle somewhere, a bit centre left or right, and to get into government you have to get them inside. Many people are happy to go a little bit either way at elections, but not too far. Which is why Starmer is going to win cos the middle don't like all that "Tory" swing to the right.
Sounds good, who do you suggest they vote for? You are not telling them with a straight face that the current Labour Party is the answer are you? If so how exactly are all those improvements going to happen seeing as people don’t want change and luckily for them Labour are not suggesting it.
I have a degree of sympathy for Sunak and Hunt in that I suspect they probably are as competent a pair of hands to manage the economy as any.
But they're surrounded by right wing idiots. And their current manifesto is just empty promises they'll never have to be accountable for.
If it was a likely Troy win then I don't think they'd be cutting taxes like they have and are promising. And I don't think the right of the party would have influence. In that regard there isn't much between them and the current Labour.
So given he choice of the same basic policies from either side, but without the nastiness I'll take it without the nastiness.
And given the choice of slightly higher taxes (i.e. no NI cut) I'd take that too as I hope that it'll help turn around public services.
So while Starmer isn't as ambitious as I'd like to see on a lot of things. I'll accept that 2% more tax, and not rolling back the ECHR, not implementing the Rwanda scheme, and not progressing a culture war against everyone from transsexuals' to cyclists is about as left as I'm likely to be offered. Railways are a fairly trivial issue, they could be better but aren't as bad as they were. Busses are a bigger issue but don't get any airtime. GB-Energy should be good thing in the long term as long as it's not sold off by the next Troy government for 50p.
Many people are happy to go a little bit either way at elections, but not too far. Which is why Starmer is going to win cos the middle don’t like all that “Tory” swing to the right.
Absolutely sums up the current state of affairs. You have to win the middle ground rather than appeal to your "core" (who will vote for whatever Dior red enhanced porcine is available).
Can you, though?
Child of a tradesman/woman. I am working class, my children are not. Starmer is, Sunak is not.
Weve gone from "the polls will narrow"
to "the polls arent narrowing"
to "I think the polls are widening"
to "craaaap"
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1803372839040409833
The inflation news might help a tiny bit, but if something big doesnt happen I reckon the Tory turnout is going to be at a record low
Some people just want....
Yeah you can normally find "Some People" that want most things at all points along the political spectrum, so what? I think nickc's post on the previous page summarised what Most People now want having been fatigued by ideologues and rhetoric from all sides for far too long.
The majority apparently voted for some sort of aimless "change" in 2019 from the same party that had already been in power for a while, but had just had an internal squabble and switched their mascot. Having carried on along the same trajectory and more internal squabbles and mascot swaps I think it's safe to say they've eroded enough voters patience now, all they've done is make the alternatives more appealing.
Label anyone not a Tory or a Reform loon as "Bolsheviks", "Socialists", "Anarchists", "Marxists" whatever labels you like. It doesn't deflect for the fact that the majority of people want the ****less bastards currently destroying the country gone, even if their replacement's offering seems a little sparse in places and doesn't quite fit everyone's vision of a utopian future.
The 'reverse project fear' from Right leaning people waking up to their evaporating popularity is going to get increasingly hyperbolic the more dire the poles look for them and the closer they come to election day...
The current Tory line seems to be "the only pole that matters is the one on July the 4th" Too ****ing true.
Don't know whether this link will work....
https://twitter.com/iampetmutton/status/1803046367972974864
Many people are happy to go a little bit either way at elections, but not too far. Which is why Starmer is going to win cos the middle don’t like all that “Tory” swing to the right.
Maybe so - but the country's state is in a downward trajectory and at some point - we will be forced to deal with it. There ain't no right wing or even centre party that is remotely tooled up for it.
Right-wing outcomes - will only be fixed by pushing back with coherent policies and good progressive arguments; certainly won't be resolved by who is the best in PMQs or who can lie their way to power by constantly softening the blow to the voters.
Fully costed - blah blah, markets etc. Climate and the NHS doesn't care about this nonsense.
Starmer’s father owned the factory did he not?
Sole trader, I thought.
It’s weird how we don’t run a presidential system, but it’s all about the leader…?
'Twas ever thus. Personally I'd be happy to have a government that isn't made up of a bunch of crooks lining their pockets.
Labour leader unable to define ‘working class’
Here in 2024 I would struggle with that one too despite being from a 1950s solidly working class background.
“the only pole that matters is the one on July the 4th”
I though brexit was supposed to get rid of the Poles?
is that the majority of the electorate are moderates who live in the middle somewhere, a bit centre left or right
Which is why the libdems win every election hands ****ing down.
Oh wait no they dont so just possibly this cry of the non moderate ideologues in the centre is actually the same sort of bollocks trotted out by the gammons about being a silent majority.
What Blair realised was he had to make some effort to keep the core vote voting for him whilst pandering to the centrist nutters. He also knew he had exhausted the patience for this and hence handed it over to Brown so he could walk away a champion despite having trashed the car for the next race.
Cameron also realised this hence why he went in for plenty of culture war bollocks to keep his core vote on side whilst pandering to the centre. He was less talented than Blair at the balancing act hence why we ended up with brexit.
The working class sell their labour power, the bourgeoisie own and\or control the means of production. Starmer’s father owned the factory did he not?
At some point this has to be called trolling.
No he did not. He was a toolmaker in a factory.
🙄. its absolutely amazing how this lie has stuck around!
...and on some quick googling his dad made some offhand reference to "my factory" as I might refer to "my office" as in the place where I work. And this was picked up by the dribble out of one side of the mouth conspiracy nutters as meaning he owned the place, and repeated in a blog by that bastion of truth Ashcroft.
We can argue whether starmer was lower lower middle or upper skilled working class, we are british after all, but really this is nonsense.
Having reverted to the posho nonsense it's only a matter of time until this poster goes back to the alcoholic smears. But why ffs? For attention? (Which is unfortunately what I'm giving. I;'ll stop,)
The working class sell their labour power, the bourgeoisie own and\or control the means of production.
That's not the normal definition, it tends to be focused on the level of skill, pay and education, although i do understand a lot of folk like saying they're working class when they're not, they are more bourgeois 🤣
@dissonance who are these centrist nutters and what qualifies them as such?
IME on the doorstep, most folks, want:
I'd add one thing to your list right at the top. They want the ability to stand on their own two feet and support their families and a level playing field in their efforts to do that. This is what drives most of the anti-immigration sentiment and perceptions about economic performance. Where Corbyn screwed up is too many of his policies were perceived as handouts from the govt to people who either didn't need it or weren't deserving. Same goes for much of the 'benefits' of being in the EU. The UK is much more like the US in this regard than most western European countries.
who are these centrist nutters and what qualifies them as such?
Those who havent reached their positions by any real consideration of their politics and are generally incapable of discussing politics without instantly demonising those who disagree. The sort of person who trots out variants on the "silent majority" and accuses anyone slightly to the left or right as being either communists or fascists.
Often those who pat themselves on the back calling themselves moderates whilst demanding anyone who disagrees gets expelled from the party to maintain its ideological purity.
The "centre" is no more immune to those types than the left or right.
'did he not?' I was asking the question having heard the assertion lots of times. Anyway it matters not one jot what your parents did, it's where you stand now in terms of social class and whose interests you represent.
sweet jesus why can't we vote tomorrow ?
https://twitter.com/PoliticsMoments/status/1802090458958479863
I doubt 5% of the population could tell you what actual party manifesto commitments are. People vote on feel and emotion. If we had a bit of positivity from the media we would all feel a bit happier in The world.
"Those who havent reached their positions by any real consideration of their politics and are generally incapable of discussing politics without instantly demonising those who disagree."
I could say that about people on all parts of the political spectrum, there is nothing about that which is unique or observed only in centrists.
"The sort of person who trots out variants on the “silent majority”"
I don't even know what this means.
"accuses anyone slightly to the left or right as being either communists or fascists."
Can you share any quotes of anywhere you've read this opinion? I haven't come across anyone who thinks this black and white about it but maybe you have.
"Often those who pat themselves on the back calling themselves moderates"
Why shouldn't they if that's what they believe is a sensible viewpoint to have?
Thought of becoming a 'full member'?
Those who havent reached their positions by any real consideration of their politics
Yes I concur. I've had the vote for over 50 years and never once given any real consideration of my politics. I just look for the box that says "centrist nutter" and pop a cross in it.
Or are you saying the "centrist nutters" are a subset of "centrists" and not all "centrists" are "centrist nutters"?