And when I say 'con-artist days', I didn't mean to imply that these had ended once he became an MP. Sorry for any confusion.
I was curious since I thought it had been got rid off back in the 60s but having checked they are technically correct. It still in theory applied for certain offences until 1998.
Can you ask them which of the remaining offences particularly concerned them?
I checked also. The last application of the death penalty was 1964.
Meanwhile,
Well i've always voted Tory and reckon all the polls are literally made up, as is all the recent news, and the Tories are on for a great victory...
Sorry Binners, couldn't resist 😉
The Twitter comments below those C4 Reform stings are ****ing depressing.
kimbers
Full Member
Let’s be honest the racist rant from the Reform candidate will win farage votes with many
Yep!
But... If he really does want to lead a party (debatable) in the commons into a GE win in '29 he'll need many, many more voters than his loyal base can provide. A great many of other voters dont like Putin or will vote for an overt rascist. If they didn't mind all that, they could vote Reform on the 4th and there is no sign it's going to happen.
I hope.
Epic!😂 I'd almost be up for getting arrested for that, I bet even the cops secretly think it's bloody fantastic. 😂
It’s far worse than I initially thought.
Really? I mean I get why Ch4 run stories like this but "Party that uses racist dog-whistles, turns out to by run by racists" isn't quite the water-cooler moment I think they were hoping for. I mean, what were they expecting?
Meantime, I will bet money that Sunak uses it as an excuse not to talk about betting all day. It'll be quite the relief for him to find out that the other party run by idiots for idiots does idiotic things.
I’m fairly confident they have a plan to spend whilst being able to deny that they’ve done it – or excuse it.
The notion that a UK government can hoodwink the markets like this is amusing.
The markets react to stuff like this in minutes, if not seconds. If you're Truss/Kwarteng they do it before you've announced it. 😉
The best thing for the UK re financial stability is political stability. If the markets believe that Labour can effectively enact a TEN year strategy, borrowing to grow, then the main body of the markets will 'approve'. There will always be a few around the edges looking to disrupt.
In economic terms the UK economy is a cork bobbing up and down in the markets. It is a decent sized cork, still, easily big enough to preserve a decent standard of living for the UK (viewed in global terms). In the future only holders of large stocks of natural resources or the issuer of the currency those resources are traded in hold any real sway.
The notion that a UK government can hoodwink the markets like this is amusing
That ridiculous you believe the markets work like that.
It's the government that issues the gilts and they set the price.
If you want to operate on a world where markets take precident over democracy and progressive values you should be supporting the Tories.
The gilt market exists as an option to and provided by the UK government.
Anything else is pro-market right-wing tosh.
You know when the pensions engaged in LDIs do you think that was a perfectly rational useful choice ?
No me neither.
Either way when the markets do screw up it's the government that steps in.
Which tells you everything about who causes instability and who fixes it.
If you want to operate on a world where markets take precident over democracy and progressive values you should be supporting the Tories.
So you believe that a political choice on the part of the UK electorate sets the tone for how international money markets function?
Wow.
Don’t mention the rest of the world, that’s where it all gets messy.
Oops… I’ve joined in… can we do this in a handy MMT thread? Interesting though it is for some of us, it can be as spammy as the PR discussions we also end up filling these threads with.
When I got home I had my first leaflet from my sitting Tory MP. “Don’t vote Reform or you’ll get Labour”. Not in this constituency love, it’s a Tory/Libdem swing seat and come next Friday you’ll be out on your arse.
Cunning wording? Hoping to get you (if you were less informed) to vote Labour to stop Reform and the Conservatives? Creating a disturbance flyer that works for more than one kind of voter is an art.
We’re entering that period where more targeted stuff on social media can be expected (and only exposed after polling day)… I suspect the last minute attempts to get the right people to stay at home, or not place their vote tactically for whoever can beat the Conservative candidate, is going to flood out in the next week… if the money is there to do it. A few journalists have made up lots of fake accounts to try and see this stuff as it happens… but they’ll have to be lucky for that to work. Anyway sees anything… post it here?
Don’t mention the rest of the world, that’s where it all gets messy.
I seem to remember this being where Brexit also has an issue...
Anyhow - fingers crossed this time next week the majority of us will be walking a little taller.
But it won't last long. Labour will need to throw off the pusillanimity and start making a difference pronto. Hopefully as big a majority as possible will allow room for Starmer to pivot as much as possible on some of the stuff he's been coming out with to avoid a Tory elephant trap.
He's not the messiah. But he's not a naughty boy either.
It’s the government that issues the gilts and they set the price.
Sure, but that doesn't necessarily follow that folks will buy them at that price or think the investment return is worth the (admittedly low) risk The UK isn't the US, we don't have the world's reserve currency, we've just come out of an inflationary cycle, and our economy is only just on a upward trend, there's certainly some head room to spend, but if the currency in circulation expands to a point that it overtakes the resources available then inflation again...
Don't get me wrong I agree that MMT describes the situation, but so does the fact that it is constrained by how (and if) the country's economy can accommodate additional govt spending.
Really? I mean I get why Ch4 run stories like this but “Party that uses racist dog-whistles, turns out to by run by racists” isn’t quite the water-cooler moment I think they were hoping for. I mean, what were they expecting?
Every little helps - it still disrupts their campaign on the ground & although it might go down will with their core support - it might some people who are wavering choose differently.
it might some people who are wavering choose differently.
It almost certainly won't though. The folks that are watching a Ch4 documentary are not the folks who're hovering over which box to tick come next Thursday if their choice might include Reform.
Again, I think documentaries like this should be aired, but no one should expect that it will move the dial at all.
I checked also. The last application of the death penalty was 1964.
Whenever I've spoken with anyone who is pro the death penalty I always ask them:
"Ok, so which crimes that you didn't do will you be happily hung for?"
Always a 'fun' conversation from that point 🙂
Heres a masterclass in economics from this mornings sacrificial lamb Gillian Keegan...
https://Twitter.com/hewitson10/status/1806578073627681120
“Ok, so which crimes that you didn’t do will you be happily hung for?”
Isn't it "hanged"? I think lots of people would be "hung" quite happily!
ON the death penalty - Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4. All would have been hung, all innocent. Howard ( remember him?) the tory home sec actually got a bit of respect from me for this as after those two appeals he publicly said he used to support the death penalty but changed his mind
Reform bigot from last night's exposé is an actor apparently?
Not yet clear if he was paid by someone to act as he did or whether it's his real self, and he just also happens to be an actor.
I wonder if someone's paid Laurence Fox to act like he does?
ON the death penalty – Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4. All would have been hung, all innocent. Howard ( remember him?) the tory home sec actually got a bit of respect from me for this as after those two appeals he publicly said he used to support the death penalty but changed his mind
Yes. But your average gammon* also assumes that friends and relatives will just bear it all with a stiff upper lip. Plus they would dismiss any later investigation as pointless. For them the application of capital punishment just neatly ends the issue...
Except if it was their friend or family member, obviously. Then they'd appeal to the ECHR, invoke any potential protected characteristics etc...
*Lazy, I know but it is convenient shorthand for a certain type of person that we all recognise.
Its a good arguement to use tho
We have had the debate a few times on here and one chap who was infavour of the death penalty did say he would have to suck it up if his kids were wrongly convicted. Most folk however just flounder when this is put to them - that wrongful convictions can and do happen
one chap who was infavour of the death penalty did say he would have to suck it up if his kids were wrongly convicted
But it's 99% certain he's talking shit.
🤷♂️
Actually knowing the chap I do not think so. He was the only one who faced up to that.
I think on balance the appetite for the death penalty is probably greater amongst the public than it is amongst politicians. Which makes it virtually impossible that it would ever be reinstated. Unless a PM was stupid enough to set out a referendum without thinking through the possible outcomes and maybe mitigating against them, but who'd be stupid enough to do that..? #rhetorical
I did read a very interesting book by a lawyer in the US who spends his time defending convicted criminals on death row in the US. His argument was not that the death penalty shouldn't be a thing, it was that if you are going to let the state murder its own citizens then the standard of trial needs to be the very very best that a country can offer, and in so many cases in the US, that just isn't the case. He was content to see rapists murderers etc go to the chair if he thought he'd done everything in his power to make sure that they'd had the best representation.
I've got the Guardian up on screen right now. Just the headlines in the 'From The UK' section...
"High levels of E coli found at Henley days before international regatta"
"Rough sleeping in London hits highest level in a decade"
"BrewDog sacks Asian woman after reaction to EDL members meeting in bar"
"Tata to close Port Talbot plant early due to strike action"
"Ex-Fujitsu engineer apologises at Post Office inquiry over 'bandwagon' claim"
UK 2024 in microcosm. **** me sideways we need a change.
Seen on twitter
Just heard someone on the radio from Reform saying there's no room for racists in the party. Is there now a waiting list then?
According to someone who has contacted him, he is very much a part time actor and he wasn’t employed by C4.
Not yet clear if he was paid by someone to act as he did or whether it’s his real self, and he just also happens to be an actor.
His argument was not that the death penalty shouldn’t be a thing, it was that if you are going to let the state murder its own citizens then the standard of trial needs to be the very very best that a country can offer
One thing that always confuses me about the death penalty debate is that liberals get all worked up about 'the state' killing its citizens, but don't seem to have a problem with the very same state killing the citizens of other countries. How does that work? Surely if the bar has to be very high for killing our own people it should be the same for others? Or am I being naive?
Just got a flyer from The Heritage Party and Labour.
Where is the Heritage Party in relation to Reform, further right, less? Their policies seem very similar!
dazh
One thing that always confuses me about the death penalty debate is that liberals get all worked up about ‘the state’ killing its citizens, but don’t seem to have a problem with the very same state killing the citizens of other countries.
I don't like either, they aren't mutually exclusive BUT that doesn't stop me from supporting Ukraine in their existential fight against an invading neighbour.
One thing that always confuses me about the death penalty debate is that liberals get all worked up about ‘the state’ killing its citizens, but don’t seem to have a problem with the very same state killing the citizens of other countries. How does that work? Surely if the bar has to be very high for killing our own people it should be the same for others? Or am I being naive?
What's a "liberal", YOUR definition?
Surely if the bar has to be very high for killing our own people it should be the same for others?
In theory the State/International law does require pretty high standards of militaries, and their conduct with regards to civilian deaths and restricting the sorts of weaponry that can be used especially from the Liberal Democracies and;
[handwavey] if you consider the long stretch of history then I think you could argue that that's largely the case [/handwavey]
But specific cases will always always get through, and regardless of how accurate say; the bombs dropped by an F16 are now in comparison to just opening the doors of a Lancaster and hoping for the best, then war will always kill innocents. I think you could make the argument that in "peace-time" the state shouldn't be actively adding to death count.
Another thing about the death penalty is that it doesn't broadly seem to be a good deterrent - murder rates in US states that use the death penalty are generally higher than those that don't. And yeah, miscarriages of justice do happen.
One thing that always confuses me about the death penalty debate is that liberals get all worked up about ‘the state’ killing its citizens, but don’t seem to have a problem with the very same state killing the citizens of other countries
Big diversion from the main point but:
You are now into the moral concept of a "just" war ( ie justifiable) Its a really difficult concept.
