Did the £1m from Ecclestone put my wife and countless other NHS staff at enhanced risk?
This is just whataboutery. Let's just say it was shitty and bent and shouldn't have happened, and they gave the money back because that was obvious.
I don't know how many people tobacco sponsorship persuaded to start or keep smoking, but however many it did - that would have cost the NHS.
Why have Labour only gone up 10% since 2019? I think the polls are wrong, I can see them getting 50% of the vote, with a majority of 120+ in the Commons.
I'm thinking the same. Have said before on here but I'm thinking hung parliament with Tory protest votes for reform evaporating on the day in swing seats.
A lot of toxic language being used on here mainly about the Tories, which I think reflects on the speakers involved not the politicians. In global terms there's not much difference between Labour and the Tories with both a whisker off centre, and little variance in their stated plans if they are elected. This is to be expected as the UK electorate won't vote for Corbyn type socialism or Le Pen style nationalism.
This is to be expected as the UK electorate won’t vote for Corbyn type socialism or Le Pen style nationalism
You mean the national media pile on wouldn’t let corbyn bring in the type of government that has progressive policies such as the Nordic model
I think the polls are getting worse in their predictions. I cant believe Labour at 42% (why not over 50%? that’s where they should be with this bunch of idiots against them),
It's not a left to right sliding scale.
People can jump from Labour straight to Reform without having to slip through a decade of elections voting Lib Dems and then Tory.
That should be especially obvious in light of Brexit and the collapse of the "Red Wall". Traditional "working class" Labour voters are / were pissed off with the system being stacked against them so voted for whoever offered them the answers they wanted to hear. Someone to blame and some easy solutions that aren't "things will continue to be a bit shit, taxes will rise and any incremental gains will be slow and only really cumulatively visible in another 14 years time."
Part of the political problem in this country (and FPTP) is it presents a fairly binary choice where the left has been arbitrarily "progressive" and the right "conservative". There's the re-branded SDP doing a sort of unpopular Reform-Left, but no economically conservative Greens for example. If the greens were a true single issue party rather than having to have frequently unpopular opinions on drugs, wars, economics, etc they would probably get more votes and actually put pressure on both parties rather than just being the party of a post Corby rout from Labours Left that happens to like renewables.
*Usual caveats about populations and elections being won by targeting hypothetical groups that represent wider populations characteristics.
To pick up on one small point re green vote share in 2019. Green's lost quite a lot of voters to Corbyn led labour.
National vote share and seats are very different things. Labour could well end up with a 200 seat majority with less votes than in 2019. Such is the way of FPTP.
I can see them getting 50% of the vote, with a majority of 120+ in the Commons.
Most of the polling sites ARE predicting well in excess of 120 seat majority.
Nothing to do with the media, Corbyn was a well known conviction politician prior to becoming Labour leader and his position and political views have always been clear. He's someone everyone has a view on, whether you agree with them or not! The country just wasn't willing to move to a Nordic type system overnight. The Labour MPs grasped this quickly hence the multiple no confidence votes they initiated.
A lot of toxic language being used on here mainly about the Tories, which I think reflects on the speakers involved not the politicians.
I'll be the first to put my hand up and say I have zero time for the Tories but there are millions that feel similarly angry.
As for that anger not being due to the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the Tories and instead an issue of their critics, I have to really disagree on that point. They, the Tories, are reaping what they have so eagerly sown.
Being as objective as I possibly can, I can't think of a British government so utterly incapable of good governance in modern history.
As noted elsewhere, vote share and seats gained are not the same thing, so for all the 'labour on only 40%' and 'tory and Reform together can make almost 40%' - I tend to give more credence to the sophisticated calculations done by the professional analysts and how that translates in different areas.
Remember - it would be entirely possible to win all 650 seats in a 5 party fight with only 20.001% of the total vote.
Let’s just say it was shitty and bent and shouldn’t have happened, and they gave the money back because that was obvious.
It was shitty and bent. But it wasn't me who was trying to create an equivalence between £1m that to our knowledge didn't personally enrich Blair/Brown 25 years ago - and the conduct of the Tories since 2019.
🤷♂️
Someone famous once said that the past is another country.
So trying to make a potentially dodgy ecclestone contribution from at least 14 years ago (icba to find out how long ago) relevant for an election in 2024 is irrelevant.
Let's talk about corruption in Sunak's Tory party looks like, and what corruption in Starmer's Labour party looks like, and there is clearly no equivalence.....
Suggestions please how to get people to engage and vote. People who come out with shit like
'nah won't bother voting, they're all as bad as each other.'
So maddening that they acknowledge that infrastructure (education and NHS mostly) is on its knees but refuse to engage.
Is there a list of Tory misdemeanors? It was like one a week at one point.
the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the Tories
That's the toxic part. Kier & co had beers in the office too, Labour will need to cosy up to business if elected to secure foreign investment, Reeves has made it clear tax and public spending will remain at near austerity, and Kier won't be changing anything on trans rights and immigration other than at soundbite level. So I guess you feel the same about Labour?
This is to be expected as the UK electorate won’t vote for Corbyn type socialism or Le Pen style nationalism.
I suggest you compare what the Tories have done over the last 14 years with RN's manifesto. Le Pen style nationalism is lightweight compared with the Tories.
I think the polls are getting worse in their predictions. I cant believe Labour at 42% (why not over 50%? that’s where they should be with this bunch of idiots against them), but Reform above the Tories, no way.
I think it's important to differentiate between samples like that (non geo-specific) and polls for particular seats.
A Labour lead of 42% generally is not going to translate into labour wining 42% of seats, it will likely be more given the number of marginal seats, Likewise for reform, they are not going to end up with 19% of seats, more likley three or four if they are lucky.
That's some of the trouble with FPTP, it's not nessesarily representative... PR could be a double edged sword, but I think that's only because we are so used to a binary system with 2 main parties, that a lot of people will vote labout to get rid of the tories, it's not that they would nessesaily vote labour anyway..
For example my local area looked like this last general election:
So I will be voting labour, despite being more of a lib-dem.
I hope this is not lost on Starmers intellect when he makes his victory speech. This is not an election in favour of labour, its an election to stop the country swerving ever more right-ward.
Starmer's beergate was a working meeting that they had food brought in for, entirely in compliance with the regs at the time. And god forbid, they had a beer with their curry. It was fully investigated and in compliance.
It is absolutely not comparable with parties in number 10 with booze being smuggled in in wheelie cases. They too were investigated and multiple fines issued for being illegal gatherings.
I don't know why you're trying to claim equivalence. They're not.
Cosying up - or as I'd view it engaging with business to ensure policies are meeting needs of the industry - is part of government. We do it all the time (us to Gov, and also us to industry partners). What it isn't, is funnelling massive amounts of cash to mates and mates of mates via back channels.
I don't know why you're trying to claim equivalence. They're not.
I could go on....
“It was shitty and bent. But it wasn’t me who was trying to create an equivalence between £1m that to our knowledge didn’t personally enrich Blair/Brown 25 years ago – and the conduct of the Tories since 2019.”
I wasnt comparing Blair to the 2019 bunch, I was saying that both parties are, or were, corrupt. Do you think Labour would have given the money back if they hadnt been found out? Of course they wouldnt. If they had principles, they would have told Ecclestone to FO.
I thought the Blair Government was going to herald a new era of decent politics, with none of the sleeze of the previous Tory Government, I was sadly let down by them with their tobacco exemptions after being paid by Ecclestone. As I said earlier, neither Party can hold the moral high ground when they do such things, you either need to be seen to be clean, or you’re in the sewer with the Tories who now seem to have got to an all time high with their Contracts going to friends etc.
It is absolutely not comparable with parties in number 10 with booze being smuggled in in wheelie cases.
Kiers beers didn't arrive under his arm through the front door. And he was electioneering at the time, not running the country, so they could all have been at home. The thought process was identical, the only difference is that there weren't 20 civil service staffers present in the office as well as the party members.
Starmer’s beergate was a working meeting that they had food brought in for, entirely in compliance with the regs at the time. And god forbid, they had a beer with their curry. It was fully investigated and in compliance.
It is absolutely not comparable with parties in number 10 with booze being smuggled in in wheelie cases. They too were investigated and multiple fines issued for being illegal gatherings.
I don’t know why you’re trying to claim equivalence. They’re not.
Cosying up – or as I’d view it engaging with business to ensure policies are meeting needs of the industry – is part of government. We do it all the time (us to Gov, and also us to industry partners). What it isn’t, is funnelling massive amounts of cash to mates and mates of mates via back channels.
I don’t know why you’re trying to claim equivalence. They’re not.
I could go on….
A million times this.
Or 29 million if you're Michelle Mone.
See also the likes of Jenrick admitting to illegally helping Dirty Desmond avoid tens of millions in tax (that he deliberately said was because he didn't want to help deprived communities) - and then carry on without missing a beat versus Angela Rayners house sale from 15 years ago. That is another equivalence I've seen rightwingers make - presumably because they both involve 'housing'.
I categorically will not let the "they're all as bad as each other" trope go unchallenged when I hear someone lazily trot it out. It simply is not true.
Well, my postal vote arrived, for NE Fife. Every candidate has 'an address in the NE Fife constituency', except the reform candidate, who has an address in Horsham...
No, they were delivered with a takeaway. That had been arranged as a takeaway because rules prevented a meal being served.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61334893
On 30 April, England was under "Step 2" rules, external, which had been introduced on 12 April.
Gathering indoors with people from outside your household or support bubble was against the law.
There was an exemption, external for "work purposes", although working from home was recommended in the guidance, but the rules did not mention socialising at work.
And there was an exemption if "the gathering is reasonably necessary for the purposes of campaigning in an election".
You can argue the thought process was identical, I'd disagree. The rules definitely weren't identical hence whatever the intent one party was prosecuted and the other found to be in compliance. Simple. As. That.
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EPA9uy5Jcw
We’ve just been googling the local Reform candidate and we can’t find out anything other than her name. She’s literally invisible
I popped out delivering more Labour leaflets earlier and arrived home to have a bored looking agency worker walk up the path to hand me a Tory leaflet.
God knows how much they’re spending on all these leaflets and paying agency staff to deliver them (presumably as they’ve no volunteers). It seems very odd in a marginal constituency with the smallest majority in the country (100 votes) which they are absolutely guaranteed to lose (weeks old local polling had Labour on 48%, the Tories on 27%)
You can argue the thought process was identical, I’d disagree.
Thought process was long days in office, let's have some food and drink with group we've been working with all day anyhow so social distancing has gone out window. Absolutely identical in every way. The different outcome is solely a reflection of covid era legislative quirks about scotch eggs being a meal and so on.
We’ve just been googling the local Reform candidate and we can’t find out anything other than her name. She’s literally invisible
One of the brighter ones then who deleted their social media history?
@dissonance - that’s exactly the conclusion we reached. I mean who has absolutely no trace on any form of social meedya nowadays, unless you’re deliberately trying to remain anonymous or erase a dodgy past? Especially if you’re a Parliamentary candidate. There’s not a trace of her anywhere
Thought process was
You know what people are thinking now?
🤦
It won't be difficult to guess what I'm thinking about you... 🤣
It seems very odd in a marginal constituency with the smallest majority in the country (100 votes) which they are absolutely guaranteed to lose
Probably not that odd then is it if it's that nailed on as a Labour gain!
Not had anything in the post from our Green party. I'm aware of the likely reasons why, but still a bit frustrating.
I’ve been leaflet-and-letter bombed by the LibDems like never before! I had both a leaflet and a letter through the door today, I think probably the same ones I’ve had at least once or twice a week since the election campaign started!
I’ve had one sad little leaflet from the Conservative candidate, and amazingly one from a Labour candidate today, who I didn’t even know existed!
I think the end result is going to be fairly obvious, at least in the Chippenham constituency.
Go on, your turn, describe the other video I linked
Thought process was long days in office, let’s have some food and drink with group we’ve been working with all day anyhow so social distancing has gone out window.
Kier wasn't on his own and I'm sure he and his team would have been sharing some colourful views on the covid rules, given STW very much was at the time.
The point is the toxicity. To call a group of people arrogant and incompetent, and another group not, solely based on whether their booze and grease arrived as a takeaway rather than the office catering, is patently absurd.
For me there is a big diference between:
A) a hand full of colleagues, who have been together all day anyway, having a curry and a bottle of beer or two.
And
B) A full on party with 20+ people, karaoke, dancing, cases of booze and a fricking buffet?
So that's the only difference? How the booze and grease arrived?
Go on, describe the video I linked and see if you can spot another difference or two?
That might help you towards why they are viewed as arrogant.
Competence.
What do you think of the PPE procurement routes. Was the outcome, overpaying by millions that mysteriously ended up in the pockets of tory donors and their mates, while the PPE ended up in the bin that of a competent process?
Or maybe that was the intention, and the desired outcome of the procurement process was met. That it was unusable is unfortunate, obviously, but that wasn't really the intent of the process?
skooby39
Free Member
the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the ToriesThat’s the toxic part. Kier & co had beers in the office too, Labour will need to cosy up to business if elected to secure foreign investment, Reeves has made it clear tax and public spending will remain at near austerity, and Kier won’t be changing anything on trans rights and immigration other than at soundbite level. So I guess you feel the same about Labour?
I think we can both agree that when we look at the Tories and Labour we are evidently looking through prisms that make the others viewpoint almost incomprehensible.
From my perspective, if Labour are indeed no better than the Tories and the current government have made good policy decisions, governed with integrity and generally improved the lives of the many then the Conservatives will win the election.
However, if a substantial proportion of the electorate fundamentally disagree with your viewpoint and see them through the same prism as myself, then the Conservatives will be dealt a resounding defeat on the 4th July.
For me there is a big diference between
Yep. Two groups of people having drinks and booze after a long day of work. Crowding round a table of food and crowding round a table with pizza, garlic bread and wedges. As said above only material difference is that one office had 20 civil service staffers as well as the party members.
This is the fundamental problem in this election. Both parties have almost identical policies. The one thing we know for certain is that we won't wake up in early July to find a socialist revolution, or surge of cash into public services, and the small boats will be arriving each summer for years. The only difference is soundbite technicalities about catering.
the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the Tories
That’s the toxic part.
Sounds pretty accurate to me.
Kier & co had beers in the office too
"Small beer" compared to the disastrous mismanagement of the Tories over the past 14 years. That's why there is so much "toxic" comment on them.
The point is the toxicity. To call a group of people arrogant and incompetent, and another group not, solely based on whether their booze and grease arrived as a takeaway rather than the office catering, is patently absurd.
Sorry but I must pick you up on that.
My disdain for the Tory party is not toxic, it's perfectly logical, indeed if enough people feel the same disdain it's actually a healthy outcome for the country as it will be expressed in their votes.
To criticise my view as toxic whilst totally disregarding the reasons I and millions of others feel very similarly is verging on absurd.
Re the betting, how are some names out but others not released?
I like when the usual suspects are wheeled out and get asked about this, they are coy about what they knew of the date. It’s almost like
“some of the junior staff knew & betted. Were you not important enough to know the date?”
You're purposefully ignoring what the rules were at the time.. (tory rules, I might add, rules that were made law by the very same people who so blatantly broke them) Numbers of people.. And association of people.
Most of the people in the tory Party gate videos look like interns, for want of a better term, there was no critical requirement for them to have a full blown party there and then. They may aswell have opened up fabric night club.
