[Closed] Uber might lose licence in London?

Not fit and proper - spot on and Chapeau to Sadiq Kahn for overseeing this decision.

I signed the petition to stop the renewal so pretty happy about it all. Fingers crossed its not a temporary thing, Uber needs a radical change in its business approach and its tax paying behaviour if it is to be allowed back.

[url= http://www.fastersaferfairer.com ]Faster Safer Fairer[/url]

I quite like the ability to book a cab by an app though.
hopefully something else will come along

Nice to see the powers that be grow a pair and actually stand up to the corporate arrogance of the likes of Uber who think they should be allowed to re-write all the rules in their own favour, and just ignore any laws they don't like

Somewhat predictably, they've just said they're appealing the decision

I quite like the ability to book a cab by an app though.

I live in the hills in East Lancs, and I can do that. Our local cab firm now does that. It's not something exclusive to Uber

Nice to see the powers that be grow a pair

+1

And disappointing to see selfish London ****s whinge about it already on my FB feed.

I quite like the ability to book a cab by an app though.

https://www.kabbee.com/

Nice to see the powers that be grow a pair

In this case I think it is just protecting the establishment ie London cabbies.

Not fit and proper - spot on and Chapeau to Sadiq Kahn for overseeing this decision.

+1

I feel quite odd, I'm actually agreeing with Jambalaya...

Will go and have a lie down now.

In this case I think it is just protecting the establishment ie London cabbies.

Maybe that's because the London cabbies are a bit less... you know... 'rapey'

I've had a couple of awful experiences with Uber drivers (who probably shouldn't have been driving, let alone professionally), so, yeah, pretty happy about this. Black cabs need to up their game though, as [i]The Knowledge[/i] is redundant these days.

indeed black cabbies be celebrating tonight!

Interesting to see what happens next, be great if Uber saw it as a sign that they had to improve

sucks for some of the 25000 registered Uber drivers in London though (imagine most of them part time)

some of my best cab rides have been late night dodgy (pre-uber) drivers in barely legal cars, that wouldve been quite scary if I wasnt smashed in one way or another

They are allowed to continue operating until the appeals process is concluded.
That should give their London drivers enough time to find other jobs.
Strong decision by TfL.
Will other cities with an Uber presence follow this lead when the licence comes up for renewal? Let's hope so.

Black cabbies will be celebrating I'm sure, but those that use uber regularly will not. Their prices are so much better than black cabbies

For zone 1 trips black cabbies win
For zone 1 outwards trips uber is excellent

[I live in London but very rarely take a cab, last time was maybe last xmas?]

I quite like the ability to book a cab by an app though.
hopefully something else will come along

How about going by bike instead:

http://pedalme.co.uk

What is the argument that they are not fit and proper? I know the previous CEO was an asshole but they've ditched him and gone for Expedia guy, or is it something they were actually doing bad in London?

some of my best cab rides have been late night dodgy (pre-uber) drivers in barely legal cars, that wouldve been quite scary if I wasnt smashed in one way or another

You should try hailing a lift in Moscow. It's... exhilarating...

Black cabs can be right rip of merchants sometimes, and I only use them for short (single zone) journeys

They can carry on operating while they appeal, which they'll drag out for years, and years etc.
But hopefully, as mentioned above, this might make them buck there ideas up.

midlifecrashes, it's a corporate fit and proper test in this case. TFL list their reservations

TfL considers that Uber's approach and conduct demonstrate a lack of corporate responsibility in relation to a number of issues which have potential public safety and security implications. These include:

Its approach to reporting serious criminal offences.
Its approach to how medical certificates are obtained.
Its approach to how Enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks are obtained.
Its approach to explaining the use of Greyball in London - software that could be used to block regulatory bodies from gaining full access to the app and prevent officials from undertaking regulatory or law enforcement duties.

Story must've been updated since the OP posted - now says they've lost their license.

last black cab ride i had was a liability, not looking where he was going, nearly hit a cyclist, had to get map out to check where he was going...

Disappointing

Cheers Stoner - a lot of room for opinion in that list, pretty obvious who's going to win the appeal then.

The lawyers.

Dez - decision is that licence will not be renewed but they can continue to operate until appeals process concluded.

You should try hailing a lift in Moscow. It's... exhilarating...

got a dodgy taxi ride in Lima once as the one hotel booked didnt turn up- scariest ride of my life, banged my head on the car roof several times we hit speed bumps so fast and were abandoned on the hard shoulder of a motorway, had to climb a big security barrier to get to the airport, but made our flight & didnt end up on an episode of Banged Up Abroad!

Disappointing

I feel the same way about Jarvis as well

That should give their London drivers enough time to find other jobs.

Uber was a revelation when visiting London earlier this year.

All the cabs we used were well maintained / nice drivers etc.

I completely get the serious reservations listed above. Were Uber given chance to remedy, or did they refuse to?

Black Cabs are an outdated business model in every way.

Number of drivers is, apparently, around 40,000.

Nice to see the powers that be grow a pair and actually stand up to the corporate arrogance of the likes of Uber who think they should be allowed to re-write all the rules in their own favour, and just ignore any laws they don't like

Well said, Boris’s worst move whilst Mayor.

Of course Uber’s prices are lower, they don’t pay VAT, they pay virtually no tax and their drivers work below minimum wage (when accounting for vehicle cost, insurance etc). Of course its F-ing cheaper. I have no issue with an app based taxi service but they should play by the same rules the Black Cabs do. Black cabs don’t set tye fairs, TFL do. Black cabs have to buy and maintain a soecific vehcile (inspected at random inc surprise vists to their homes) etc

Number of drivers is, apparently, around 40,000.

I think that’s right. Certainly when I was living in central London based on the number of Prius driving around at 20mph waiting for a fare it seemed like they where more than that ! I would love to know how many (London based) tax returns have Uber as a source of income ?

Uber needs a radical change in its business approach and its tax paying behaviour

Because, you know, taxi drivers as a breed are well known for their squeeky clean tax affairs. (There are some noteable exceptions but in the main they are as dodgy as Uber over taxes and paying their correct share.

At least this is a step in the right direction, although a few years too late.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/11/black-cab-turns-green-new-electric-london-taxi-levc-tx ]Black Cab Turns Green[/url]

Good, can now make the likes of Airbnb up their standards and pay proper amounts of tax.

Uber needs a radical change in its business approach and its taxpaying behaviour

You're right It's not just tax. It's the lot. It seems like Uber's entire business model is based on exploiting legal loopholes. According to them, they're a software company, not a transportation one, so they don't have to comply with transportation laws. The way they contract their staff means they escape minimum wage and employment law.

And then, of course, there's the issue that they pay no tax

Their whole ethos is a massive two fingers to the societies in which they make so much money. Its about time somebody stopped them just thinking they can do whatever the hell they like

Of course Uber’s prices are lower, they don’t pay VAT

Neither do most Black Cabs

Whats stopping TFL creating their own app to book black cabs?

Serious question.

Of course Uber’s prices are lower, they don’t pay VAT

Neither do most Black Cabs

Yet the self-employed drivers still get a better deal, funny that.

Whats stopping TFL creating their own app to book black cabs?

There has been at least one for years, Hailo, people use Uber because it is cheaper. Black Cabs are subject to a whole raft of regulation that is pointless nowadays, regulations leads to increased consumer costs. It is very tough when the knowledge acquired for your qualifications becomes of little value, but it is wrong to ignore reality when it has and force the consumer to pay too much.

Good, can now make the likes of Airbnb up their standards and pay proper amounts of tax.

You are aware that the hosts keep most of the money for AirBnB, right? So tax payments for that part are on them not AirBnB. Are AirBnB as a company not paying tax?

I’m in agreement with TfL.

I’m based in Town and use Black Cabs all the time, went through a year of intermittent use of Uber because mates would order them but they never felt right with me. Stories of hassle and very bad driving, poorly maintained vehicles and the attitude of many of the drivers was shocking.. Add to that thier fondness for single women and late nights and drunkenness and I’ve heard all sorts of stories, most reported to TfL as it happens.
Reverted back the Black Cabs ever since and yes they’re a bit more money, but at least it’s a flat fee basis across all Black Cabs so you Pay the same per mile..

BLoJo was such a farcical berk to let them continue, but then he’s proving just what a jerk he undeniably is.. Gald Khans in, he’s been more forethright and considered than all his predecessors.... about time too.

Reverted back the Black Cabs ever since and yes they’re a bit more money, but at least it’s a flat fee basis across all Black Cabs so you Pay the same per mile..

Black cabs need reforming too though. For short journeys they're not too bad but for long journeys I've always ended up using minicabs. I've had black cabs attempt to rip me off on plenty of occasions by taking a clearly roundabout route and then getting shirty when called on it. Then availability late night/early morning in order to get to some locations is pretty spotty.

All in all, the black cab gang should look at Uber and try to work out what they could do better not just try to drive out competition.

Maybe that's because the London cabbies are a bit less... you know... 'rapey'

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Worboys

I have no issue with an app based taxi service but they should play by the same rules the Black Cabs do.

I've only briefly used Uber in London, with OK experiences, but have used them extensively elsewhere. They offer better quality than local cab companies in my experience. I've only once had a bad experience which Uber refunded when I gave negative feedback. I live outside Uber coverage but my local private hire firm has an app. The standards there are not as good a I have experienced at Uber - but the app is still way better than phoning, hoping they turn up and paying cash.

I have no issue with an app based taxi service but they should play by the same rules the Black Cabs do.

I've only briefly used Uber in London, with OK experiences, but have used them extensively elsewhere. They offer better quality than local cab companies in my experience. I've only once had a bad experience which Uber refunded when I gave negative feedback. I live outside Uber coverage but my local private hire firm has an app. The standards there are not as good a I have experienced at Uber - but the app is still way better than phoning, hoping they turn up and paying cash.

The issue with sexual assaults and Uber is not that Uber drivers are "rapey" (does that mean they are rapists? Not quite rapists?), nor that you could trust any black cab driver with your wife or servant, but that Uber, when challenged on a number of cases, said that any passenger/customer who experienced an assault needed to report it to the police and it wasn't their job (Uber's) to take action.

The criticism is that Uber were shirking some responsibility, although ultimately it is a police matter.

However the model is still valid

Is it? They trade (In London at least) by being cheaper, and if TfL are to believed they're cheaper because they're cutting corners that may ultimately lead to their drivers and passengers being less safe. If you put back in all the costs that are part of operating costs that all other regulated taxi services have to bear; does the model still make sense?

Black Cabs are an outdated business model in every way.

Black cabs seem intent on bemoaning the uber model rather than asking why people like it so much and reforming their offering to meet uber head on .

I live too far away to use uber around home but used it extensively in rome this year and it was superb.

Maybe that's because the London cabbies are a bit less... you know... 'rapey'

Bad, Binners! In your corner!

I've used uber far more than I've used black cabs in the last couple of years. Black cabs are a rip off I don't care that they've done the knowledge we've got gps now or that they have to use a car with such a crap design it's not used in any other country. They are an anachronism, a pita to cyclists and not representative of the ethnic diversity of London.

@atlaz I use minicabs for longer journeys too - a mini can you can book hours or weeks in advance.

The Government is looking at the GIG economy and quite rightly, its a huge swerve around tax and workers rights legislation. It’s not a surprise they are cheaper

The Greyball affair illustrates not only Uber's morality, but also the vulnerability of regulatory organisations to being spoofed. That they went to the lengths they did to identify government employees and, in cities where Uber wasn't licensed, effectively hide the service in plain sight.

It's difficult to see an alternative though- Kimber's rose tinted view of the unlicenced minicab days jars with the experience of a lot of women who had the worst ride of their lives (no pun intended), and Addison Lee seems to employ tactics nearly as dodgy as Uber to win new business.

The drivers though are an interim hassle to Uber- when the technology catches up with their real business model there'll be no need to worry about rapes, minimum wage and income tax, and we'll all be on an Uber subscription service. Oh, and most of those 40000 drivers will be unemployed.

Black cabs are a rip off I don't care that they've done the knowledge we've got gps now or that they have to use a car with such a crap design it's not used in any other country

But the Knowledge doesn't just get you from A to B ... like a sat nav does... its how you get from A to B ... the most direct route isnt always the fastest and a good cabbie will use this to his customers advantage.

As for design of car ... its brilliant... 5 not 3 or 4 in comfort, wheel chair accessible and can turn on a six pence.

My pals a cabbie and he's been pretty pragmatic about the rise of Uber. He thinks the public will realise that they are two different services ... with a black cabbie offering more quality.

But the Knowledge doesn't just get you from A to B ... like a sat nav does... its how you get from A to B ... the most direct route isnt always the fastest and a good cabbie will use this to his customers advantage.

Waze, among others, matches (and probably beats) a Black Cab's knowledge.

a good cabbie will use this to his customers advantage.

Alternatively a lot of cabbies will use their route knowledge to fleece their customers.

The Government is looking at the GIG economy and quite rightly, its a huge swerve around tax and workers rights

I work with uber in Cardiff, all my earnings are paid directly into a bank account. There's no hiding it, unlike with traditional taxi work were you could more or less invent your income.
Uber lost £2.8bl last year 😯 I doubt they'll be paying tax for a while yet.

regulations leads to increased consumer costs.

True, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have it. Regulation can lead to a lot of improvements such as around safety.

But the Knowledge doesn't just get you from A to B ... like a sat nav does... its how you get from A to B ... the most direct route isnt always the fastest and a good cabbie will use this to his customers advantage.

As for design of car ... its brilliant... 5 not 3 or 4 in comfort, wheel chair accessible and can turn on a six pence.

My pals a cabbie and he's been pretty pragmatic about the rise of Uber. He thinks the public will realise that they are two different services ... with a black cabbie offering more quality.

The app on my phone tells me the journey time and alternative routes.

A cabbie who was in our club raved about how good and cheap the Mercedes alternative was and as I mentioned why aren't they used all over the world?
They are two different services but I'm not sure where the quality comes from in the black cab.

Well, once last year (this time last year actually)it cost me £78 to get back from Clerkenwell to Canary Wharf in the pissing down rain .. that was in a black cab. Ok, so the Limehouse tunnel was closed (it does sometimes) but still.. the Mrs was furious, me I CGAS because it was raining and it was my choice to use a cab..
Still expensive mind..
Annnnnd please don’t tell me to ride a bike or catch the tube, ta.

Uber lost £2.8bl last year 😯 I doubt they'll be paying tax for a while yet.

Of course they did. Like Amazon, Starbucks and Facebook don't make a profit either?

Using ludicrously complex, dodgy creative accountancy, and funnelling everything through opaque tax havens to say you made a loss, is very different thing from [i]actually[/i] making a loss

The trouble with some of these companies now, is the aim to increase share price is the primary goal, making an actual profit is down the list of priorities.

So companies like uber and netflix, can run huge losses and accrue incredible levels of debt, but still perform well according to the shareholders as the share price is going up. It is clearly a house of cards that must come crashing down.

And that is a different game to off-shoring ownership and having countries compete against each other for the honour of them not paying tax there. It is all ****ing crazy.

is very different thing from actually making a loss

So companies like uber and netflix, can run huge losses and accrue incredible levels of debt, but still perform well according to the shareholders as the share price is going up. It is clearly a house of cards that must come crashing down.

It works as long as rhere are sufficient shareholders (they generally don't have significant debt) believe they will make a profit one day or someone will buy them out. Amazon has made hardly any profits on a global basis, expansion is funded by shareholders and cashflow derived from mismatch between when they get paid and when they pay. This model just doesn't fit in a tax system - it is not avoidance at all.

Of course if they do get dominant enough black cabs will seem a bargain.

Not really, even if they wipe out black cabs and private hire drivers, if they use that position of dominance to gouge the market, the competition will just return and undercut them.

Using ludicrously complex, dodgy creative accountancy, and funnelling everything through opaque tax havens to say you made a loss, is very different thing fromactually making a loss

I love how you made that all up to serve your prejudice 😆 find me one bit of evidence that they actually do make a profit and I'll eat my uber hat. They certainty hope to make money in the future but not yet.

Terrible backwards-looking decision. Hopefully will be overturned on appeal, when Uber make some required changes.

Twodogs + 1.

A backwards step for London.

Terrible backwards-looking decision. Hopefully will be overturned on appeal, when Uber make some required changes.

Two different things. Overturning a decision on appeal, and making the changes or providing the information TFL ask for.

It doesn't even look like TFL are asking for very much, but Uber are just acting like they're above the need for regulation and compliance.

They're probabky busy as we speek fireing the unpaid intern who sent an "All your bases are belong to us" meme to TFL rather than whatever corperate procedures TFL had asked to see.

So companies like uber and netflix, can run huge losses and accrue incredible levels of debt, but still perform well according to the shareholders as the share price is going up. It is clearly a house of cards that must come crashing down.

45 Degree comment ... with Netflix it's because of their huge investment in original content.

There's a reason they are cheap.....

Pay peanuts.....you get monkeys...

About time they lost their license - some of the worst drivers on the road!

45 Degree comment ... with Netflix is because of their huge investment in original content.

Potato Vs Potato

Its the same business model to increase its userbase untill it becomes profitable. Uber offer you a subsidised taxi, Netflix offer you Bojack Horseman.

Uber v black cabbies in terms of driving ability, dodginess being rapey are irrelevant - if you as a human being want to do any of these things no amount of checks will stop you
The question here is a basic principle of competition and ability to choose your mode of transport...
if governing bodies choose to take that away on technicalities that is wrong, plain and simple and I am disappointed in TfL and Mayor for letting it get this far.
I get the feeling this is more about the upcoming Labour conference - the tub thumping socialist making a point about big corporation, there will be an appeal and Uber will be granted a license - this is about making a point and to hell with the people...
Khan could well lose the next election and I for one won’t be voting for him again.

[url= http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-ban-is-a-disaster-for-london-2017-9?r=UK&IR=T ]interesting read...[/url]

@Twodogs yes interesting thanks

From the Taxi campaign

Together, we did it!

TfL today announced that they will NOT be relicensing unsafe Uber in London.

[b]Following numerous stories highlighting the unsafe practices of Uber, including the Met Police writing to TfL to say that Uber was failing to report crimes, the Mayor has finally made the right decision.[/b]

This unprecedented decision was only possible because 20,000 of you joined our campaign and emailed TfL to demand an end to Uber’s unsafe, unfair practices in our great city.

After months of pressure with thousands of you at the LTDA’s side, our voice was heard and the Mayor made the right decision by banning immoral Uber from our streets.

There's still a lot to be done, but let’s celebrate this excellent decision - please SHARE the good news today:

Once again thank you to Sadiq Kahn

I have no problem with Uber working like a mini cab company

Book weeks in advance
Fixed price - no surge
Fully uk based company
Fully compliant with mini cab regulations

 TFL ask for.

It doesn't even look like TFL are asking for very much, but Uber are just acting like they're above the need for regulation and compliance.

The bit I don't understand is that uber drivers in london have to have a London private hire liscense.
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/private-hire-driver-licence
Transport London will have done all the criminal record checks and recieved the medical certificates before issuing a license. No license no driving with uber. I'm not sure what it is that Uber are withholding.
It'll probably need to go to court before all the details are made public.

I haven't used Uber in London, as thankfully I don't have to go there for work any more. I would rather use it than a black cab though.

We have Uber in Southampton - use it fairly consistently coming home from nights out. It's significantly cheaper than any taxi, even in peak times, quicker and just works. I have a couple of the big players Apps in town for backup but it's always a massive ballache to book one, wait longer & be charged more.

Maybe the standard of Uber driver is better here, cars are always nearly new Prius's & they can all drive fine 🙂

I hope they can appeal & reform, competition is good.

So, 20,000 joined the campaign to ban Uber....325,000 have already signed the petition to overturn the ban

Fully uk based company

I really don't see why this is relevant

Twodogs - Member
interesting read...

As someone who lives in what would now be classed as a London Suburb, for me this article pretty much hits the nail on the head. To add that my experience of Uber tends to be clean, polite, punctual, convenient and well priced. The one time I had a problem I got a refund in minutes and was able to offer feedback on the driver (as they can on me if I am a poor customer).

I don't disagree that Uber may need to up their game in terms of how they operate, however much of this seems to me that the established industry doesn't like a disruptor challenging its monopoly. If the industry can't evolve to offer a comparable or better product, then it will decline.

Hopefully the outcome will be better control/compliance, whilst giving the customer the choice they deserve.

We have had other threads on Uber and the ViceNews team and others inc BBC Newsnight have done pieces on them and their deplorable practices. As @mefty says this sort of business is designed not to fit in a tax system, thats one of it’s competitive advantages. Well sooner or later we will have to pay those taxes instead or accept fewer services