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why does this "education" have to take place at university?
It doesn't, but that's a whole nother debate isn't it?
Also, there's this false belief that university is full of people doing these 'mickey mouse' degrees. The odd story in the Daily Mail about a university offering degrees in something silly and some people seem to think that that's what most students do.
In reality, the majority are doing 'proper' degrees.
I'm also pretty sure it doesn't cost £9000 a year to teach someone (probably one in a class of 50) a subject that doesn't involve much practical stuff (e.g. engineering or medicine).
The problems highlighted by Flash (too many Media students etc) are easily countered by upping grade requirements to get in, then you have only the best going. Not the richest.
Druidh- the ones who don't have jobs to fund uni can't as it is 😉
Anyway, as for the rioters, Fred has a lot to say about that-
why does this "education" have to take place at university?It doesn't, but that's a whole nother debate isn't it?
It is another debate, true. But for all the people who complain about being put off from university and how this is unfair, getting educated via the workplace is a viable option. If not having a degree meant not being allowed/able to get a job then yes, subsidise it. But it doesn't, so why should we subsidise it?
I went to university in the early 80s. No one had a car, few had bikes, stereos were a rarity. Few folk worked either - but we lived far more cheaply and with far lower expectations than students now. Living as student now as we did then would vastly reduce the debt.
I know people who got degrees then that have been useful members of society that woulkd not go to uni under the present system. The debt would put them off. People from poorer backgrounds.
I thin tuition fees stink to high heaven. Learning should not be taxed. However I also feel that some sort of sensible contribution from graduates to university costs is realistic.
The real issue here tho is an outright lie or breach of promise from the lib dems. They signed a pledge to vote against tuition fees rises. They broke that and for that deserves all the bile coming their way. They will not get my vote again. They have lost all electoral credibility and will deservedly disappear after the next election
Medicine? Not much practical stuff?
but we lived far more cheaply and with far lower expectations than students now
Is this something you made up or do you have real proper evidence? That involves more than some people you saw the other night?
The real issue here tho is an outright lie or breach of promise from the lib dems.
What did you expect from a coalition? What should they have done? Stuck to their guns and ended up out of govt?
SpokesCycles - MemberDruidh- the ones who don't have jobs to fund uni can't as it is
Aye - and when I started working (without going to Uni) I couldn't have afforded such things either. As TJ says, as a society our expectations have risen beyond what we can afford.
CaptainFlashheart - Member
Er, well there's this crazy idea that having an educated population is good for the whole country
Yes, but does all education need to be at a University? Does there need to be so many media studies graduates, or Beauty Management graduates? Could not much of this education be done outside of the tertiary education system and in the workplace instead?
Well, one of the UK's competitive advantages is its creatives industries - media graduates are needed for that.
And why is your line of thinking never extended to those most useful of subjects classics, art history, linguistics, music, politics etc?
Won't we all end up paying anyway
If graduates have to pay more fees, they'll need to earn more money (or the govt writes the debt off), the companies will need to pay them more, and the cost whatever service the company provides will go up for the end consumer.
molgrips - we simply lived more cheaply with lower expectations than students I meet now. Expectations were lower. We did not own cars, motorbikes and fancy bicycles. We lived in quite frankly horrible housing that would rightly be condemned now. no one went abroad for a holiday, no one had nice consumer goods.
molgrips - Member"The real issue here tho is an outright lie or breach of promise from the lib dems."
What did you expect from a coalition? What should they have done? Stuck to their guns and ended up out of govt?
I demand integrity from my politicians of whatever hue. If you sign a solemn promise to do something you should not renege on it. Its very simple. Lying is not acceptable.
Also, there's this false belief that university is full of people doing these 'mickey mouse' degrees.
True. The majority of degrees, as far as I know, are proper degrees. However, I'm pretty sure that a lot of them could be better catered for via apprenticeships. Not all, but a lot.
I'm also pretty sure it doesn't cost £9000 a year to teach someone (probably one in a class of 50) a subject that doesn't involve much practical stuff (e.g. engineering or medicine).
I don't believe it does and I would have major problems with a lot of degrees charging £9000 just because they can. However, remember that the role of universities is not strictly the education of students, but rather the furtherance of knowledge and learning i.e. research, which does cost money. Lots of money.
And why is your line of thinking never extended to those most useful of subjects classics, art history, linguistics, music, politics etc?
Linguistics?! One massive citicism of the UK in the international market is our general inability to speak languages. Languages are an incredibly useful degree to have.
I demand integrity from my politicians of whatever hue. If you sign a solemn promise to do something you should not renege on it. Its very simple. Lying is not acceptable
For bloody starters it's only lying if you KNOW something is not the case (or not going to be the case) when you say it. Seems to me the Lib Debs properly committed themselves to no tuition fees before the problem of a coalition appeared. So let's get that ugly and misleading little word out of the way.
I do understand that you are upset that they went back on their pledge, but tell me how they had a choice? I'll ask again - what should they have done?
However, remember that the role of universities is not strictly the education of students, but rather the furtherance of knowledge and learning i.e. research, which does cost money. Lots of money.
Lots of university funding comes from industry, at least with engineering, not as sure with something like English or Geography.
I agree with TJ.
Anyone here who voted Lib Dem and would again out of interest?
Linguistics?! One massive citicism of the UK in the international market is our general inability to speak languages. Languages are an incredibly useful degree to have.
Linguistics is not learning to speak a language now is it? 🙄
Linguistics is a science and sciences are intrinsically important.
.
molgrips of course it is a lie. They said they would not vote for a rise in tuition fees and they have.
what should they have done - had some backbone and integrity. If the price for coalition was an increase in tuition fees they should have walked.
I think they were foolish to go for a formal coalition anyway and made themselves look foolish in doing so - such as campaigning " no cuts now" and then accepting major cuts. However to pledge that they will do something as a solemn and binding pledge then do exactly the opposite stinks
what should they have done?
Voted against the rise.
It'd have been a lie if they knew they were going to vote for tuition fees and said they wouldn't.
I don't think they knew that when they made that policy.
It's unfortunate, maybe disingenuous, but not a lie.
Do you really think walking out on the coalition would have been the best thing to do? They had two choices:
1) form a coalition and get some of their policies adopted or
2) refuse to compromise and get NONE of their policies adopted.
Which best serves the people who voted for them?
Ok, timeout, I'm confused: CaptJon said, "And why is your line of thinking never extended to those most useful of subjects classics, art history, linguistics, music, politics etc?" i.e. asking Flash why he doesn't class them as mickey mouse degrees, yes?
And no, linguisitcs is not the learning of languages; it's the science of human language. What you have there is me being unintentionally patronising and assuming that CaptJon had confused linguistics with languages degree as there aren't many linguisitcs degrees about. My bad. 😉
Not sure there are many Lib Dem policies that have really been adopted. Only two that I know of:
-Being allowed to abstain on the tuition fees vote (but half of them voting yes anyway)
-Being allowed a referendum on the AV system (not prop. representation as they really wanted)
A great contribution to the world the Lib Dems have had then!
For bloody starters it's only lying if you KNOW something is not the case (or not going to be the case) when you say it.
There is a very strong case that the LibDems had already decided before election day, that in the advent of a coalition with the Tories, they would ditch the pledge. So they are liars on that count.
Besides, no one forced them to break their solemn and binding promise, so it's pretty clear that despite what they were saying, there was really no serious commitment. So they are liars on that count too.
Correct me if I am wrong but it wasn't made clear that the PR thing was going to be simply AV. And PR would be by far the most important lib dem policy as it would hugely increase their vote share and secure much greater lib dem influence for ever more.
I can see their thinking to be hoenst.
molgrips - do you understand the meaning of the words? Tosay you will do something and then do not do it means the original statement was a lie. It was clear and unequvical.
Its clear what their voters think about the course they have adopted - they won't vote for them again.
Supporting a queens speech allowing Cameron to form a minority government could have got them pretty much what they have got minus the ministerial cars and allowed them to retain their integrity.
Here you are molgrips :
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/12/lib-dems-tuition-fees-clegg ]Revealed: Lib Dems planned before election to abandon tuition fees pledge[/url]
So the LibDems were lying when they made their 'solemn and binding promise' .......they knew there was no commitment, despite saying the contrary.
The LibDems are liars.
You are wrong.
teh pledge from the tories is for a vote on AV.
The loans thing will never be fair.
eg ex workmates son and his friend both went off to the same uni.
Mate was a factory maint fitter, the other guys dad was/is a pharmacist owning his own business(drives a Jag XKR)
Guess who did and who did not get grants/loans?
Business people can fiddle their income to make it appear as if they have not earnt £xxx or whatever the system limits are ❗
Living in Scotland my daughter went to an English uni, I had to pay the fees ❗ and suffer 🙄
What has not been mentioned by all the learned people on these threads and all the media is the roll and costs to us, the parents.
Living cost such as accom, course materials etc. No grant/loan or whatever covers everything.
My daughter btw is now a teacher(27 special needs kids) , she had a waitressing job, ran the resteruant when owners took breaks, had a son, has an MA arts deg + her teaching degree and owes thousands to us and in loans.
Son took the apprenticeship route and has an HND electrical engineering quali. Changed to a job in civil eng due to his autocad experience and his employer is paying for his degree on a day release basis, in his last yr and going on to become chartered. At the same time as being dad of 3!!!
Tosay you will do something and then do not do it means the original statement was a lie. It was clear and unequvical.
I disagree on a semantic basis.
If I say "I am going to work tomorrow" then I get the sh*ts in the night and don't go, it's not a lie is it?
If I say "I am going to work tomorrow" whilst planning to skive off, it is.
Lynch - badly misleading headline there. Starts of saying they were planning to scrap their pledges, but later it says they were just planning possible compromise options. The first is reprehensible, but the second is entirely practical.
It was just another example of the Lib Dems selling themselves to the Tories.
They wanted PR, but they were only allowed a referendum on AV.
We haven't found any Lib Dem voters who would vote for them again yet.
[i]And wouldn't society benefit more would be students went straight into apprenticeships and the work place to be educated in a trade?[/i]
I think that the workplace has changed to such an extent that this really won't happen now. I have a feeling that apprenticeships only works effectively when the general form of employment is life long for a single employer with little swapping from employer to employer and minimal contracting. With the fluid workforce we currently have there is less incentive for a company to invest in an apprenticeship infrastructure.
On a semantics level, if they weren't planning to vote against any increase in fees, then they weren't lying.
What they have done is broken a dirty great promise which is morally worse in my book. There's none of us gets through the day without lying, mostly harmless enough stuff. I see a lot of lying on here.
But, if you promise to do something, then you should do it. And not be the weasel that Clegg is, with his head up the arse of a group that are going to make Maggie's government look like a day on the bouncy castle.
Either way Clegg is something that the swear filter would get. And he knows he is.
Molgrips - do yo work in marketing?
Every single Liberal Democrat MP signed a pledge to say 'I will vote against any increase in tuition fees.' Then some of them did not vote against a rise in tuition fees.
Only a lawyer or a marketing man would try to make out this is not a blatant lie
Oh FFS TeeJ, stop bloody digging your heels in. You're only arguing semantics now.
but later it says they were just planning possible compromise options.
Eh ? 😕
You don't "compromise" on a pledge..........that's the whole point of it ffs.
That fact that they were even considering compromising on their 'solemn and binding' promise, exposes them as liars.
Do you not see how compromise is an essential part of politics?
Not if you solemnly promise to do something then you do not compromise on it. By doing so you show your lack of integrity.
Alpha1653 - Member
Ok, timeout, I'm confused: CaptJon said, "And why is your line of thinking never extended to those most useful of subjects classics, art history, linguistics, music, politics etc?" i.e. asking Flash why he doesn't class them as mickey mouse degrees, yes?And no, linguisitcs is not the learning of languages; it's the science of human language. What you have there is me being unintentionally patronising and assuming that CaptJon had confused linguistics with languages degree as there aren't many linguisitcs degrees about. My bad.
Thanks, but i wasn't confused. I think you might be though 😉
I don't understand why media studies always gets a beating, but reading classics or Latin doesn't. The former has much greater direct uses, people who do classics end up as MPs. Anyway, i've found most people have little clue what gets taught on degrees (beyond their own if they did one) but feel perfectly qualified to declare some useless and/or not academic enough to be taught at a university.
What annoys me most is those politicians who say the increases are needed to help pay down the deficit quicker, but are silent on what happens in five years when it is sorted. Universities will be fundamentally changed, will future governments restore their publicly funded teaching budgets? Or will they remain privatised like so many public services and shortly the NHS?
what no cheers this time when the fee rise was voted in
seem to remember the torries cheering giddily when osborne announced the cuts that brought the government here
dont suppose these guys were worried about tuition fees
[img] 
[/img]
caption contest anyone?
...you show your lack of integrity.
Not only that, but you also show your contempt for democracy.
Each LibDem MP had a clear and undisputed mandate from their electorate, to vote against tuition fee increases today.
Despite that, most LibDem MPs decided to vote for something which they did not have mandate for.
So liars with a contempt for democracy then........nice people 😐
Ernie - the only consolation ( and its not much) Is that they are finished as a political force and that will be Cleggs footnote in history - the man who finished off the lib dems
the are not even going to get a vote on AV thru.
Not if you solemnly promise to do something then you do not compromise on it.
But sometimes compromise is essential! There's no point in being so obstinate that you lose everything, is there? At least, not in my world. You guys would make truly terrible politicians.
Each LibDem MP had a clear and undisputed mandate from their electorate, to vote against tuition fee increases today.
You should know it's much more complicated than that. Unfortunately.
Dont recall any of the STW Leftie intelligensia being up in arms and promoting rioting in the streets over Nu-Labours breach of their election pledge to offer us a referendum on the European Constitution... 🙄
Or for that matter the Conservative breach of an election pledge that anyone caught with a knife would go to prison... No Leftie Liberals manning the barricades on that one either are there?
the point is the lib dems edged some marginal seats based on a lie they only got the chance to form a coalition because of that pledge
Molgrips - you cannot compromise on something you make a point of promising. Especially when you you use that pledge to gain votes. it shows a basic lack of integrity. Of course compromise is needed but not to the extent of losing your integrity
You are in marketing aren't you?
caption contest lol ,"thats done buggerall for the cause" after the damage thats been inflicted by them , i have no sympaphy for them at all, they have done more harm than good.