Or does it make any difference that ticket offices are closing and staff will be out on the platform, with various means for the public to ask for help and advice.
Or by closing the booking offices and making staff redundant will it make the tube more unsafe,other forms of transport are available.
Finally is it just the union sabre rattling,and forcing a shutdown of tube services, even when limited numbers of staff will be made redundant, and no drivers will be affected.
As someone who will be affected by this the sooner the whole underground is fully automated the better.*
*actually I don't really mean that but its my first reaction when they announce they are striking again.
I imagine I am not alone in that and so the strikes are probably somewhat counter productive.
I cant see how these redundancies are going to make anything any better and im struggling to think of a single benefit of having more staff on the platforms
The most useful place- at the barriers and ticket offices.
Overall its a reduction in staff something and how long before we see unmanned stations, in complete contravention to the recomendations of the kings x fire inquiry.
At least this strike isnt just about pay
Its also a massive about face from Borris who pledged at each election that he wouldnt close ticket offices, but he is a practiced liar
My final point is -ha ha!
as a smug cycle comuter
I think its quite funny when all the morlocks are forced to come blinking from their tunnels on strike day and have to navigate their way above ground!
the thing is all sub surface stations require a certain amount of staffing at all times, by law, so only the surface line stations maybe unstaffed.
Finally is it just the union sabre rattling,and forcing a shutdown of tube services, even when limited numbers of staff will be made redundant, and no drivers will be affected.
Well the idea of the many standing up for the few does seem to have been pushed out of fashion in modern selfish society, thank god there are some still willing to hold onto the old fashioned values so loudly paraded in the rhetoric of tory back benchers.
Hopefully the #bikethestrike campaign helps break the effectiveness of the strike.
Well the idea of the many standing up for the few does seem to have been pushed out of fashion in modern selfish society, thank god there are some still willing to hold onto the old fashioned values so loudly paraded in the rhetoric of tory back benchers.
Perhaps what they need to work on is communicating why they want to strike, otherwise it's easy to point to old school self interest about getting rid of people who do nothing. Especially when the commie Bob Crow is involved 😉
Well the idea of the many standing up for the few does seem to have been pushed out of fashion in modern selfish society, thank god there are some still willing to hold onto the old fashioned values so loudly paraded in the rhetoric of tory back benchers.
+1
If we all just looked out for ourselves, the world would be pretty unpleasant, or rather more unpleasant .....
I think they have a point with this strike but because of the number of strikes moaning about their already excellent pay and conditions, expected an Olympics bonus e.t.c I have no sympathy with them anymore. They have manipulated the system for too long with their self importance.
Or does it make any difference that ticket offices are closing and staff will be out on the platform, with various means for the public to ask for help and advice.
Well I this morning tried to buy a ticket from the TICKET MACHINES this morning and wouldn't accept
NOTES OR COINS so I had to buy my TICKET from the TICKET OFFICE
SO HOW WOULD I BE ABLE TO HAVE GONE TO WORK WHEN ALL THE TICKET MACHINES WOUDN"T ACCEPT
NOTES AS I DID NOT HAVE A OYSTER CARD !!! ANSWER IS NOT BUY AN OYSTER AS THE COMPANY PAYING FOR MY TRAVEL DOESN"T ACCEPT OSTER CARD RECEIPTS ???
BJ and RC must be feeling v proud of themselves.
I think they have a point with this strike but because of the number of strikes moaning about their already excellent pay and conditions, expected an Olympics bonus e.t.c I have no sympathy with them anymore. They have manipulated the system for too long with their self importance.
^^This.
Everyone in London is sick of them, and their constant complaining about their already very good terms and conditions.
For me, driverless trains can't come soon enough.
I think anyone who has access to the public transport system available to people in London needs to wind their neck in and be thankful for what they have got, because it's a darn sight better than the vast majority of the population, tube strikes or no tube strikes.
I think it's interesting how the media are playing the strikes - they are not reporting on the fact that the ongoing industrial action will affect commuters on the tube on the on 7th, 10th and 14th February 2014 between 09.30 and 11.30 hours and 18.30 and 20.30 hours - when the RMT will cease collecting or enforcing fines - because thats of benefit to commuters personally, they leave that out…as though there is a wider anti-union agenda to the reporting, not just reporting the information as it is.
^^This.
Everyone in London is sick of them, and their constant complaining about their already very good terms and conditions.
For me, driverless trains can't come soon enough.
Well thats CRAP as once they had to struck because they in a wage settlement had that the Management
make the station toilets usable for the women staff But They never did and that they had to strike to get the Management to correct for the the Female staff to use.
Not only that these people that are working with the Management had a problem when we had the recent BOMBINGS on the UNDERGROUND the MANAGEMENT told the drivers that all trains had been cleared of all persons belongings and should start a back to normal service. !
Well the DRIVERS went back on the trains to start a NORMAL SERVICE but had the trains cleared NO they
had not and so the DRIVRS stopped service.
(This was on the CENTRAL LINE ) So what did the Management do ? Well Boots gave a box of Chocolates
to All the staff on the Underground and the Management held the kind Gesture BACK for a short period !
This is what we as Customers are up against day in day out.
when the RMT
Its NOT an RMT strike !
Its NOT an RMT strike !
The RMT and the TSSA are both on strike, it is an RMT strike, as well as being a TSSA strike.
Well LU staff are delicate flowers for sure, with excellent pay etc etc. But, their union is very good indeed. Unions do very well to defend and represent their members etc. I personally can't see that much of value in LU staff knowing what they have to do to get paid that much but man, have you seen what amounts of monies TfL (management) waste?
So this thing is not really about money saving, but more about idealogical executions. Automated trains and stations? 24 hour service? Would you like your pregnant spouse be stuck on a broken automated train under ground, or lonely daughter at unmanned train station at night with rowdy crowd?
There are many specific issues to consider before executing such a new age advancements, even then you might say DLR are allready automated. They are not.
Why Mayor or TfL don't want/tell people how much will those modern age technology cost?
Who can blame staff for being discontent... no doubt rumours have been rife for years about the various underground injustices:
now I'm no mathematician, but what are the odds?
So this thing is not really about money saving, but more about idealogical executions. Automated trains and stations? 24 hour service? Would you like your pregnant spouse be stuck on a broken automated train under ground, or lonely daughter at unmanned train station at night with rowdy crowd?
Great points, how does the driver fix the train and deliver the baby?
Can the driver get out and come to the assistance of your daughter? (who incidentally appears to be as yet un born as the first example states)
Is the driver also monitoring the train, driving it and watching CCTV from all the carriages?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_(Vancouver)
fully automated public transport
I feel like a sardine, in a can!!!
Thanks RMT!!
well Borris has certainly managed to rack up a lot of strikes under his mayorship
The crowds of people at bus stops was amusing,(felt like waving as I cycled by) Im sure itd be quicker to walk as there was a lot more cars on the road anyway
Im also amazed more people dont just cycle
on the other hand saw a lot of very wobbly/light jumping/ risk taking cyclists on the roads!
This would be a good day to get those police back at the junctions like they had at the start of the year
So apparently, TfL want to make 950 redundancies and [b]1,000[/b] staff have expressed interest in the redundancy package being offered.
Allegedley, only 70% of the 30% of union members who bothered to vote, thought the "issues" were worth it...
Mr Woppit - MemberAllegedley, only 70% of the 30% of union members who bothered to vote, thought the "issues" were worth it...
That's enough to form a government...
woppit thats better numbers than Borris got to be elected mayor!
Mikewsmith ...
SkyTrain Attendants (STAs) are present to provide first aid, directions and customer service, inspect fares, monitor train faults, and operate the trains manually if necessary.
That link you threw, looks like no different to DLR trains.
Good point about driver fixing train. Would passengers sort out train problems if they arose themselve? Have you ever seen or used DLR trains and seen its attendants (train drivers)* in action? Do you really think automated technology is cheapest most reliable solution?
I can tell you for sure, it sounds very promising on a paper but in reality its very different. You don't even realise how much will it cost and how those Boris ideas will impact travel fares never mind many people loosing jobs.
Yes, isn't it odd that a body which is voted in by a tiny minority if the vote-registered public, demand different procedures from vote-registered union members.
However, still doesn't make it a majority...
However, still doesn't make it a majority.
It is a considerable majority of those who voted, it is as democratic as any system we have.
kimbers said:
I think its quite funny when all the morlocks are forced to come blinking from their tunnels on strike day and have to navigate their way above ground!
I had to use the tube in November last year because I was in the early stages of recovering from my broken back and I soon became astonished that people put up with this crappy form of travel five days a week.
I couldn't wait to get back on a bike and did so even though it was too soon and I had to double up the pain killers. Nothing's worth putting yourself through that nightmare on a daily basis, staff or no staff
pretty bonkers out there this morning on the way into the city.
lots of traffic jams - more buses, more cars and people getting taxis to work getting dropped off in inappropriate places causing more jams. certainly a test of balance weaving around the traffic.
and of course plenty more pedestrian lemmings throwing themselves into the road.
It is a considerable majority of those who voted, it is as democratic as any system we have.
One can only assume that those who didn't vote don't care.....
Loads of "Morlocks" have walked in today and keep saying "oh, it only took 5 minutes longer than getting the tube...." Yes, thats because the tube is incredibly slow and it takes about 10 minutes just to get to the train.
Thing is, the more they strike, the more they sway public opinion towards getting rid of them and replacing them with automated systems that don't strike to try and leverage yet more money......... Bit of a backfire really.
No busses this morning either!!
..and the more they strike the more people try walking or cycling and realise there are better options for getting to work.
I love the tube for getting around of an evening or weekend but use it in rush hour? No thanks!
Thing is, the more they strike, the more they sway public opinion towards getting rid of them and replacing them with automated systems that don't strike to try and leverage yet more money......... Bit of a backfire really.
Only the public stupid enough to buy into the anti union media onslaught, those who are too lazy to look past the headlines. It is always the same no blame apportioned to management forcing through conditions to create distress and fear, and all blame lumped onto the victims of those actions.
Some days I am very happy to have left the UK and moved to a country that hasn't destroyed the idea of employees having representation in the workplace.
I think anyone who has access to the public transport system available to people in London needs to wind their neck in and be thankful for what they have got, because it's a darn sight better than the vast majority of the population, tube strikes or no tube strikes.
Quite. In my experience, public transport in London is better than anywhere else in the UK.
I only wish my union leader was as effective as Bob Crow.
^^ agreed, thats why its used by the vast majority of Lonjoners..
I only wish my union leader was as effective as Bob Crow.
effective at what?
On the upside: Getting vast salaries for his members for them doing very little.
On the downside: Buggering up Londoner's get-to-work-and-back transport on an irregular basis.
Ignoring Whoppits usual troll bait his entire job description and sole task is to protect his members interests,all would agree he is very effective at doing this.
I accept everyone right to strike and support them when they do it even if it is bit of a pain for me.
Probably better if we asked why yet another politician has broken a solemn pledge.
Surely we should be able to take them to court - I know it has been tried.
effective at what?
Achieving the best possible terms and conditions for his members. That's his job.
[img] 
[/img]
IMAGE.GUARDIAN.CO.UK
Four: Make Transport More Convenient
By halting the proposed Tube ticket office closures, and ensuring there is always a manned ticket office at every station.
...but not that manned ticket offices are manned at all times the network is in operation.
BR ticket offices are frequently unmanned, aren't they? What makes the tube different?
"ensuring there is [b]always[/b] a manned ticket office at every station."
the unmanned BR stations dont have barriers preventing you from getting on the trains like the tube does, not to mention the volume of users at even 'quiet' tube stations in rush hour
Junkyard in another forum fail, shocka, there.
Seems most of the rest of the subsequent entries kind of agree with my first point...
I daresay his members think he's worth every penny, even the >70% who evidently couldn't care less about the strike itself.
automated stuff is quite often shite (see self checkouts at supermarkets) the ticket office at our rail station has 6 tills, 3 is the most staff they ever have to man them and monday mornings and various times on other days of the week it's mental busy. They installed 2 automated ticket machines which are rubbish, most of the time they won't take cash or cards or either. Too unreliable.
Isn't the idea of public travel - like cycling - supposed to be to make it easy for occasional users not just the hardcore/enthusiast who will do this everyday whatever. Automated may be ok for season ticket holders but rubbish for the rest.
Of course if you have a heavily subscribed service you may not give a stuff about occasional users, capitalism in action, but I thought public transport was supposed to be a [i]service[/i] not purely a money making machine.
Seems most of the rest of the subsequent entries kind of agree with my first point..
No they don't, know one else seems to think they are overpaid and under worked as you do, that's a view most reserve for the finance sector.
I daresay his members think he's worth every penny, even the >70% who evidently couldn't care less about the strike itself.
The 70% who cared to not vote against it. I guess you could divide them up many ways, 50/50 for and against or say that those who did vote were representative therefore still 70% in favor and 30% against. But it is ridiculous to insinuate that all those who didn't vote opposed the action.
And What have the management and decision makers done to try and avoid the strike? Why keep pointing the finger of blame at the employees who are standing up for each other. If you want to rant about the difficulty caused to commuters, why not assign the blame there?
Saw the two of them on Newsnight last night. Bob Crow doesn't come across as very bright, does he?
BJ basically said, "call off the strike and we'll sit down like adults and discuss this, but I'm not being held to ransom." Crow's response was essentially "yes, but, strike."
Being a grubby Northerner I've little interest in the London public transport system, but it was hard to be sympathetic towards their cause when they're more concerned with striking than talking. Surely the whole point of a strike is to force a discussion?
Well, the office is "manned", I suppose!
[img] 
[/img]
"Information only. Please use the ticket machines"
😀
No they don't, know one else seems to think they are overpaid and under worked as you do
That's your interpretation based on what you think my politics are.
But it is ridiculous to insinuate that all those who didn't vote opposed the action.
Oh, I agree, old boy. But, that's not what I said. 🙂
BJ basically said, "call off the strike and we'll sit down like adults and discuss this, but I'm not being held to ransom." Crow's response was essentially "yes, but, strike."
So BJ claimed to being held to ransom while holding the axe over 1000 jobs, he expected the unions to compromise while offering nothing in return.
Strangely, 1,000 employees who expressed interest in the redundancy package on offer, didn't seem to see any axes...
The whole thing is like Jurassic Park with 70s language dominating the debate - not a pretty sight for our capital city.
FWIW and admittedly on overland rather than underground, the commute has significantly improved with ticket machines. We have one grumpy old sod in the ticket office who had two speeds (dead slow and stop). He takes delight in long queues and people missing their trains in the morning - a game he admitted to the ladies running the coffee shop. He still survives somehow, but we also have three ticket machines providing an efficient and effective service with much smaller queues. If you are desperate or new, you can risk the GOS otherwise the machines provide a much better service.
BJ and RC were like silly kids in CH4 news last night. Pathetic display.
London Underground is operating a good service on all lines
Yes and the cheques in the post.
So BJ claimed to being held to ransom while holding the axe over 1000 jobs, he expected the unions to compromise while offering nothing in return.
I'm not seeing how that's being held to ransom. If the talks break down, Boris is still free to axe the jobs, Bob is still free to strike. They're both "holding axes."
Bob Crow basically wanted Boris to agree to his desired conclusion of the talks before / instead of having those talks, otherwise he'd go ahead with the strike.
This may be an oversimplification, the bit with Paxman was the first I'd heard of any of it. Just saying that's how it came across to me.
Mr Woppit - Member
Strangely, 1,000 employees who expressed interest in the redundancy package on offer, didn't seem to see any axes...
you believe BJs numbers, how gullible are you?
is that like his 1000 volunteers who he said were turning up to man tube stations today or maybe like his pledge to keep manned stations or his assertions that cyclists were responsible for 2/3rds of all RTAs they were in were because they broke the law....
you believe BJs numbers, how gullible are you?
So what's the 'real' number?
kimbers - Member
Mr Woppit - Member
Strangely, 1,000 employees who expressed interest in the redundancy package on offer, didn't seem to see any axes...
you believe BJs numbers, how gullible are you?
Genius,
Have any unbiased figures for the rest of us then.
It's funny how many people are taking the anti-union angle on this.
I know little about Bob Crow, but I do know that the mooted 'there are jobs for everyone' isn't quite what it was made out to be. There are some jobs available, but where management positions are being dispensed with, the managers and other staff have a bun fight for the remaining jobs. Some will have to take pay cuts to keep their jobs, others will have to either relocate or face a massive commute. And that's before we even get into Mayor Boris's broken promise about stations. Why should anyone trust him when he says 'call off the strike and we'll talk about it'?
It's an inconvenience for a lot of people, but what option do they have? They're NOT overpaid, or even well paid. The conditions they have aren't fab either, and stand to get much much worse under the new system. The the new pay bandings mean people having to take wage cuts to keep their jobs. In the same circumstances, wouldn't everyone fight to keep their job?
real numbers? could be 20 could be 2000
with Borris' history of dishonesty and conveniently pulling bullshit figures out of the air to support his arguments, who knows!?!
They're NOT overpaid, or even well paid.
Based on the slightly simplistic notion that it's his job to maximise the benefits of his members, this suggests that he (RC) isn't doing a very good job.
Seems odd when he has been pretty successful in getting £50k+ salaries in place. Ok, not up to his loftier standards at approx 3x that, but....
....Aren't you bit harsh on big bad bob?
They're NOT overpaid, or even well paid
Well the young lady that used to work in a team of mine who left to become a Customer Service Representative working at the stations for £5k more (than she was earning in a similar but office based role)and the 10 Weeks Holiday and less hours a week may disagree with you..........
I'm not seeing how that's being held to ransom. If the talks break down, Boris is still free to axe the jobs, Bob is still free to strike. They're both "holding axes."
Talks have already broken down, and the strike is being held. What do you expect the union to say "ok we have talked, you have ignored us, now we will go away and let you carry on"
Bob Crow basically wanted Boris to agree to his desired conclusion of the talks before / instead of having those talks, otherwise he'd go ahead with the strike.
Crow said he would suspend strike action if BJ agreed to suspend the proposals they're striking over. What's unreasonable about that?
Well the young lady that used to work in a team of mine who left to become a Customer Service Representative working at the stations for £5k more (than she was earning in a similar but office based role)and the 10 Weeks Holiday and less hours a week may disagree with you
If you paid your staff properly, perhaps they wouldn't be in such a hurry to leave.
presumably this strike wasn't arranged and voted on yesterday morning, there will have been some lead up to it, the night before is a bit late to say "stop the strike lets talk instead". I'd have thought the night before is the chance for an offer more palatable to the unions and if a [i]serious[/i] offer is rejected [i]then[/i] you can say unions are unhelpful.Saw the two of them on Newsnight [b]last night[/b].
Going back to the OP title....
Probably showing that they are hanging in, some better than others, but a shadow of their former selves. So today:
At best a partial disruption
No solidarity from other unions
Hardly rousing support even from within RMT
Minimal public sympathy
And all over a debate re 750 roles that may change or in some cases disappear - a bit like watching an ex-premiership footballer playing for a div 2 side and winning a replay in the FA cup. In the end, soon forgotten.
yes THM soon the nobility and bankers will be unopposed once again, we'll be able to go back to 6 day weeks, no holiday or maternity/paternity leave, dump the minimum wage, itll be a capitalists paradise I tell ya!
with Borris' history of dishonesty and conveniently pulling bullshit figures out of the air to support his arguments, who knows!?!
Well, if the real figure was vastly different to the BJ figure, why hasn't BC published it? Maybe it shows something he doesn't want to be know?
perhaps it's worth considering not to sit on either side of the fence and to sit in another camp that states that the whole thing is just bullshit and needs reform.
both Bob and Boris wanted the strikes.
Quite. In my experience, public transport in London is better than anywhere else in the UK.
As someone who moved down to London a couple of months ago I'd agree that public transport in London is pretty good, and certainly better than other UK cities. In the UK v Europe public transport comparison it's the smaller cities that don't fare as well - for example Munich has a vastly better public transport network compare to Edinburgh or Glasgow but not compared to London.
I don't use the tube to commute (from Greenwich to my office I can use use bus, overground train or boat) so wasn't impacted by todays strike although the overground train I used was a bit busier than normal. I was impacted by a signal failure affecting SouthEastern though so decided to get the bus home and work from there this afternoon.
I do need to get from London Bridge to Kings Cross tomorrow evening though - I'll probably walk so hope it doesn't rain!
are you mad?! it's like 3 whole miles....
kimbers - Member
yes THM
How is what follows related to my point?
soon the nobility and bankers will be unopposed once again
Can't recall either in my lifetime. Several centuries since the feudal system. How can an industry be unopposed. Was banking a monopoly?
we'll be able to go back to 6 day weeks, no holiday or maternity/paternity leave, dump the minimum wage, itll be a capitalists paradise I tell ya!
Feel free to tell me what you like, but I seriously doubt any of that will occur, and an odd description of paradise IMO.
are you mad?! it's like 3 whole miles....
Which will be no problem if it's not pissing down. I find I walk loads in London anyway.
Odd that the RMT have released pictures from Waterloo of overcrowding and the obvious hazard to safety. The Waterloo and City is like that most days without any comment. It would be illegal to transport animals int he way that humans are treated on a regular basis at rush hour. Still "LU is operating a good service on all lines."
ransos - MemberWell the young lady that used to work in a team of mine who left to become a Customer Service Representative working at the stations for £5k more (than she was earning in a similar but office based role)and the 10 Weeks Holiday and less hours a week may disagree with you
If you paid your staff properly, perhaps they wouldn't be in such a hurry to leave.
Where the hell else can you get paid a very reasonable salary (for an entry level customer service role), and [u]get 10 weeks holiday, heathcare and pension???[/u]
Nowhere which is why there's a massive waiting list for those jobs. She was interviewed and then waited 2 years bfore they found her a position.
1. Aren't the proposed job cuts covered by voluntary redundancies?
2. Sure, might mean some people move jobs, get pay cuts or increases
3. But net jobs are the point, can't work around vested interest of a minority
4. And anyway, isn't the point to provide the best tube service, not preserve jobs
5. What is the point of ticket offices in any case?
6. How does Bob Crowe earn 150k and live in a council house?
I'm struggling to square that circle. And thats leaving aside the Bob Crowe holiday cheek, entitled to holidays yes of course but priorities should have been elsewhere in his position at that time.
Where the hell else can you get paid a very reasonable salary (for an entry level customer service role), and get 10 weeks holiday, heathcare and pension???Nowhere which is why there's a massive waiting list for those jobs. She was interviewed and then waited 2 years bfore they found her a position.
Thanks to excellent union leadership, LU has yet to compete in a race to the bottom. Meanwhile you have to waste time recruiting a replacement.
damo2576 - Member1. Aren't the proposed job cuts covered by voluntary redundancies?
2. Sure, might mean some people move jobs, get pay cuts or increases
3. But net jobs are the point, can't work around vested interest of a minority
Job cuts don't just affect the people who're cut! We went through 3 rounds of redundancy in my last company and the people who got it worst were those who didn't get out early.
Thanks to excellent union leadership, LU has yet to compete in a race to the bottom. Meanwhile you have to waste time recruiting a replacement.
And it all worked so well in the end for every other major union and the workforce/industry it 'protects' - coal? entire British motor industry......?
And it all worked so well in the end for every other major union and the workforce/industry it 'protects' - coal? entire British motor industry......?
The industries (and people) the tories were happy to crush in order to win an ideological battle. They didn't die naturally they were destroyed by intention and the people employed thrown onto the scrapheaps as necessary casualty's in creating an even more unequal society.