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No it's not a hard job. At all. Many millions of people commute in the tube and are exposed to the dirt in the system on the way to much lower paid jobs and there is not exactly an epidemic of people dieing in London because of it. Anyway they get twice the holiday entitlement than anyone else to clear their lungs out. There are plenty of other jobs out there in the public and private sector that are harder and more dangerous and they attract far less salary and benefits. Tube workers stick out like a sore thumb with their significant pay and benefits. Fair enough, and good luck to them, but don't insult us by demanding more.
As has already been said, it is NOT just the drivers on strike, but you already know that and just want to pretend the majority of strikers are paid the same.
If we are into wage comparisons why not start talking about how much all the useless managers and the blond buffoon get paid, they are just as responsible for the strike. They are paid to deal with industrial relations and they have failed.
Coedy - valued yes. Overvalued, no. What about any worker who works in a big building who are responsible for evacuating and shutting down electrical systems. And what about the firefighters, paramedics and Police who actually were mostly involved in the 7/7 situation who are all on half the pay and benefits of the tube workers.
TBH there's quite a useful exercise you can perform here... Split everyone who has an opinion into 2 columns. One of them only talks about driver pay, the other doesn't. Then, split the "driver pay" column into 2 more- people who don't realise it's not just drivers that are on strike, and people who choose to focus on drivers and their good pay package and ignore everyone else
The former, we should inform. The others, we should know them for what they are.
The managers who have to deal with industrial relations are not paid to do that, it is an additional task over and above their day job (or part of their job as well as the day job) which is to manage the business and make it a success. They are not like the hugely overpaid union leaders who basically have nothing to do all day but deal with industrial relations issues. And anyway the useless managers (so that'll be me then) don't have the nuclear solution like the workers do so the b balance of power is massively out of whack.
I'm not against unions but am against striking and the UK unions and their tactics. They just militant, often bullies cajoling people into doing things they don't want to do.
Yes i am in a union and yes i have been on strike (oh and it wasn't about pay and it was in France so way more fun and way more supported by the public as i recall) -i missed striking last time my union in the uk did because i was already on a rostered day off, but i went on the demo etc.
Amazing how many clever folk on here seem to forget that like the air force, the driver is one part (often paid a lot more) of the whole setup. And that by its location the tube drivers supposed exorbitant salaries are inclusive of a 'London weighting' that the doctors and nurses salaries you are comparing them with are not. i would get paid between 15 and 20% more (outer and inner) if I worked in London but i don't see any of the clever folk on here subtracting a sixth from the pay of tube staff when they compare them to other jobs outside London.
It is not just tube drivers going on strike, it is a lot of lower paid people who do all the other stuff that is not driving the train and still have to work nights to keep the trains themselves running. I wonder what some of them are paid and how much less exciting those numbers are to you. The automated driver option is pretty hollow when you consider the people you still have to employ however trains are driven, and that these employees are subject to these changes and striking too.
And hey, what about market forces, city folks? What price for keeping your city running? How expensive and impractical would the tube need to get for you to think its worth relocating your business or staff outside london? How much more should tfl look after their staff before its more economical to buy them out and replace them with people on new contracts/working conditions or automated trains, and ticket machines? How much money to develop and run robot platform/security staff and cleaners? The demand to keep this service going in order for the city to continue to generate wealth is very high, how is this different from any other part of the supply /support/logistics chain making sure they get the best share they can from this?
The UK unions are the weakest in the western world, they legally have less power than in any other half civilised country.
Other cities around the world run perfectly well on driverless underground systems and unmanned ticket machines. In fact the majority of other tube networks outside of this country do, so not that hard at all. London has one advantage, the sheer number of people using the tube every day, so the business case would be, I expect, not too difficult to justify. But then again i'm just one of those 'clever folk' so what do I know?
And also, like with many of these things, those rich city folk are not the ones this sort of action is hurting. They can probably work from home. Actually it is hurting most those who are earning less, have less benefits and actually have to be at their place of work to work and might be losing a day's pay because of it.
The UK unions are the weakest in the western world, they legally have less power than in any other half civilised country.
...and still not good enough for our prime minister, who if general elections were run like he wants strike ballots (turnout and majority rules) would not be in government now let alone in 2010.
Nb the strike ballot for this particular strike had both a turnout and majority that has never ever been seen in a general election in this country.
Other cities around the world run perfectly well on driverless underground systems and unmanned ticket machines. In fact the majority of other tube networks outside of this country do, so not that hard at all. London has one advantage, the sheer number of people using the tube every day, so the business case would be, I expect, not too difficult to justify. But then again i'm just one of those 'clever folk' so what do I know?
Great, sounds like you might be just the man to price up converting the oldest and most 'compact' (platforms, tunnel sizes) tube system in the world to driverless and those glass platform doors, and factor in the running costs of all the other staff that are still facing working nights and you still need. Then you can decide how much it is worth to do that and still look after the rest if the non-driving non-ticketing workforce working nights, and how much its worth to do the same but without the driverless trains changes.
If its worth doing it the first way, then the unions will blink first, if its less expensive to do it the second way then the employer will blink first. Really, how different is this in principle from any other business negotiation?
actually it is hurting most those who are earning less, have less benefits and actually have to be at their place of work to work and might be losing a day's pay because of it.
That will be the 'means of production' you are talking about then. Not just them that is hurt by them not getting to work, their employers and the parts of the city that rely on the businesses that employ the little people. You talk as if the city would just carry on conference calling and facetiming forever if the tube, city/borough council and the service industry all fell apart because the infrasturcture couldn't take it. Really this is a fascinating insight into how the wealthiest people in the country still need little people and little tube trains not just to get to work but to support the rest of the infrastructure that supports their continuing to be wealthy.
Quite simply the tube is a public service which allows millions of Londers to get to work (and thus pay their taxes for the benefit of the country), striking should be illegal.
Without private sector taxes, we wouldn't have the public services. That's one way of looking at it.
The other way is that without those public services the private sector couldn't function. (As proven today.)
TBH there's quite a useful exercise you can perform here... Split everyone who has an opinion into 2 columns. One of them only talks about driver pay, the other doesn't. Then, split the "driver pay" column into 2 more- people who don't realise it's not just drivers that are on strike, and people who choose to focus on drivers and their good pay package and ignore everyone else
I think there many that are ignoring the fact that it is more than just the tube drivers striking is, as I said earlier that because the tube drivers have in the past stiked over other things so often the public have lost patience, and that ends up reflecting on everyone else striking.
yup only 20% of LU staff are drivers, dunno what their salary is tho
but theyre all getting big changes to their contract
but the hidden victims will be all those shady unlicensed taxi drivers you get a white knuckle ride home from at 4 am from vauxhall ! whatll they do when they tubes run all night!
Tony, a 22-year-old LU customer service advisorWe are the first face that customers see and we regularly get lots of grief.
I was assaulted recently by a customer because we were enforcing a one-way barrier system. He grabbed me and started threatening me. I am not paid to put up with that abuse but it's a reality of the job.
Luckily for me there were other staff in the vicinity. Under the new night Tube plans I could be on my own. Not a week goes by that we don't have three calls to the British Transport Police but it can take them up to half an hour to get there so you are basically dealing with it by yourself.
We are seeing homeless people sleeping in stations, with 24-hour running and fewer members of station staff you are going to get more problems like that with drunk people.
We've been told there will be more police officers around, but we have had no assurances about how visible they will be. It's no good if they are up in the control room or sitting with the driver if something is going on at the back of the train or in another part of the station.
We don't want to cause disruption, but it's the only option we have left to get management to address the issues we have.
jambalaya - Memberstriking should be illegal.
😀
Well the tube does exist and life will carry on once the strike is over, but the point i'm making is that the people the strikers want to hurt the most - the wealthiest, are actually the least impacted as they tend to do jobs where they can be just as productive at home as in the office. The 'little people' are impacted the most who tend not to be the rich imperialist bastards that the unions have such an issue with.
Most business negotiations are aimed at finding a middle ground that benefits both parties. The unions are not interested in that - it's their way or the highway, so not a negotiation.
We'll see about driverless tube trains. Engineers are clever people so I have no doubt the necessary modifications can be made. It's a matter of when, not if. Do you really think that a situation will be allowed to continue where a small group of people can cause so much disruption to millions in one of the most important cities in the world? It's not insight, it's not clever thinking, its just cause and effect. If a strike is given into now, then a strikes will continue every year whenever the unions feel like it. It is not rocket science. The Unions exist to protect and improve the conditions for the workers and they will jump on every chance to do that irrespective if it is right or not without consideration of anyone else. If they are given an inch they'll demand a mile. That is clearly not an acceptable situation.
I think the point i'm trying to make, without getting too tied up in the tube workers, is that striking is counter productive and ultimately leads to the demise and security of the workers jobs, or even entire industries. I personally am not necessarily in favour of mechanisation/automation/exporting jobs abroad, I want to see a thriving and diverse jobs market in the UK for the sake of my kids, but I see the Unions as being a significant threat to that. They lack any sense of reasonableness or consideration of the bigger picture or the challenges business face. They don't negotiate - negotiation is a process where a middle ground that benefits both sides is reached, but unions often refuse to negotiate backed up with the threat of the nuclear option of striking always on the table. The government might be happy to call their bluff, but a lot of businesses are not. They are simply held to ransome
but the point i'm making is that the people the strikers want to hurt the most - the wealthiest,
The strike is absolutely nothing to do with hurting the wealthy, it is about protecting the strikers own working conditions. It is not an attack on anyone, it is a withdrawal of work by people being pressured into accepting new working practices that they don't think have been properly thought through .
striking is counter productiv
really? bob crowes last round of strikes got driver pay from 42k to 50k
Yes well done them. Always a smart move the hasten your demise!
We must protect and respect anyone's right to withdraw their labour. With that right comes the obvious responsibility which I am sure is equally welcomed. Everyone's a winner
And the new drivers starting now will probably not retire as tube drivers when the job becomes redundant. Short term win/lose vs working together to ensure the future of the business for the employees and owners.
Hasten their demise?
In case you hadn't noticed they are expanding the service, it is a resounding success story.
Short term win/lose vs working together to ensure the future of the business for the employees and owners.
Funny that working together is only ever used as a criticism of one side of the partnership, reveals the bs bias straight away.
Most business negotiations are aimed at finding a middle ground that benefits both parties. The unions are not interested in that - it's their way or the highway, so not a negotiation.
From an [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tube-strike-live-the-underground-drivers-letter-that-may-change-your-mind-on-todays-walk-out-10378637.html ]open letter from a driver[/url], so obviously not to be trusted, even so....
[b]TfL could have spent the last three months genuinely discussing how to resolve this dispute. They chose not to. They have not changed their position in any way (until yesterday, keep reading I’ll get to that).[/b]If London comes to a halt this week, the people who should be blamed are not those who work hard to keep it moving all year round. It is the directors, and those above them, who simply do not believe that their staff have a right to a reasonable quality of life.
[b]Yesterday’s events (Monday 6th July) at ACAS were really quite extraordinary. TfL having failed to change their offer for the last three months, now made a new proposal in the afternoon, but explained that it was “time bound” and would be “withdrawn if its conditions were not accepted by 18.30 this evening” by all four trade unions and industrial action was suspend.[/b]
TfL must have been aware that of course it would be impossible for Unions to comply with this ultimatum. Unions would need to properly consider the implications of the proposal and consult with Reps and their Executive Committees. Unions offered to return to ACAS at 12.00 today (Tuesday 7th July) to respond to the proposal but were told that it would be off the table after 18.30 today (Monday).
To be clear, Unions did not reject the offer. It has been withdrawn because the four Trade Unions were unable to comply with an utterly unrealistic “take it or leave it” ultimatum. It is pointless for Unions to express an opinion on an offer that no longer exists.
This now puts Unions in a position where there is no offer on pay, conditions or Night Tube on the table. It is difficult to believe that TfL are negotiating in good faith. Their offer seems to have been designed, not to resolve the dispute but to be used as a way to blame the Unions for what now seems to be inevitable industrial action.
Resounding....
Generally I have seen unions cause more damage than they solve...selfish short term gains have killed a few companies I have dealt with. However for those in public sector I understand why you would join a union as the government has no loyalty or pragmatism in negotiations generally, as found out recently by a family member who works for UK border force (redundant).
eally? bob crowes last round of strikes got driver pay from 42k to 50k
But that was purely incidental. All Bob Crowe's strikes were mainly about "Safety"!
😉
Nobody excep tme mentioned the First great Western strike over 2 days also on going and the Northerrn train staff who where warned they would have their union funds sequestrated, seem as if there are strikes and strikes, and all 3 are down to staff being reduced and less staff to deal with passengers.
I've been involved in 4 strikes in my working life, only one of them was about pay.
None of them were anything to do with pissing off rich people or grabbing headlines.
All of them were a result of a breakdown in negotiations and were very much a last resort.
In fact, we went on strike last year during a ridiculous restructuring of Social Services. Our main reason for striking was that we did not agree with a process that we believed would leave children in danger. Cue headlines earlier this year that the restructuring our protests failed to prevent caused massive shortages of Social workers, leaving nearly 300 vulnerable children without an allocated worker.
Very often, people go on strike for very different reasons than money.
I can't even figure out why we need drivers. Get it automated and get rid of them.
I can't even figure out why we need drivers. Get it automated and get rid of them.
On our line we probably have someone on the track about once a week, often more, and I've lost count of the times they've escaped unhurt or with only minor injuries because of the drivers reactions.
People outside of the job don't really have any conception of what we do in the background (I'm not a driver by the way).
LUL have really been watering down the safety procedures over the last few years and the night tube issue has snapped the elastic and totally cheesed everyone off. If I remember right 90 per cent of those balloted voted, and of those 80 per cent voted to strike. Any government would love to have a mandate like that!
5thElefant - Member
I can't even figure out why we need drivers. Get it automated and get rid of them.POSTED 54 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
What a balloon.
It is simply not right, ethical or fair that London is ground to a halt because of these greedy, arrogant and ungrateful people. the world doesn't owe you a living and if you have a very good living you should recognise that. At the end of the day, the workers don't work for their managers, or even the company - they work for their customers - it is they who ultimately pay their wages and benefits. And it never ends well when you piss your customers off. That is just a simple fact of life.
The first two sentences of this could be talking about a number of recent pay 'disputes' in the banking sector, non? "We can't cap bankers bonuses becsause x y and z. We must bail out this that and the other bank because x y and z. We cannot sack or prosecute these people because of x y and z."
Funny how because it is ordinary people with no friends in government that this process of 'do right by us or we will screw things up for you by stopping/leaving/not playing ball" is now not ethical or correct.
And the thing with pissing your customers off is that if they are a captive audience then you really can piss them off and get away with it. (Step forward South West Water for local example to me) and you are in business terms in a far stronger bargaining position than somewhere with a realistic choice of ways of getting to work and room to expand on and improve the more favoured choice if what you are offering falls out of favour. There is simply no room above or below ground to build a rival tube system and little scope for making more seats on buses and getting them around any faster.
So yes, the 20% of tube staff on strike may get pushed out by frankly enormous investment in retrofitting these systems in possibly the least retrofittable and byzantine tube system in the world, but 1) given the somewhat special challenges of doing so in that tube system versus some of the others, is it really worth it yet? And 2) that doesn't stop the other less well paid 80% of staff continuing to bargain for better conditions or even pay as they comtinue to realise the unique position they find themselves in -'little people' who have so much leverage because of the incredibly important system and economy that has been made possible in such a geographically small area mostly because their own tube system has allowed this.
Again, in business terms this makes sense, they are in a fantastic bargaining position that would have been ruthlessly exploited already were we talking about an unregulated transport system with shareholders that realised its importance to the workings of the city and could set its own ticket pricing for the benefit of shareholders as opposed to employees.
It is just that it is the 'wrong' people doing well out of this particular negotiation that is unusual.
Never ceases to amaze me the transformation to snide shill c$$t, when ones convenience is being inconvenienced, "don't hold me up or make me wait u c$$t I'll ****in shank ya" 😆 I wonder if these emotional responses are used to exploit us?
Drac - Moderator
Ok.
That's £18k more than I get for being a Paramedic Manager.
Maybe you should shop around a bit; Most RRV Paramedics are earning more than you around my neck of the woods, and front line 'Paramedic Managers' are up there with the tube drivers after a few years in their role...
And you know why? Because they voted to strike when their job evaluation was fiddled by the SHA to reduce its value, then stuck together, negotiated and played brinksmanship with the government up until the eleventh hour. Result, a fair job match which has subsequently raised the pay grades of most roles in the Trust.
Unions FTW.
50k a year? Source?
And are there any vacancies for doing bugger all @£50K.
I'm not surprised so many nurses or teachers quit on £25k working 7 days a week.
The problem with the "get it automated" suggestion is that many of the tube lines already are - the drivers don't do any driving as such and would be better described as "cab based door operators"
If it's such a good job why don't you do it? Nothing stopping any of you. I'd personally not do it for £50k.
As for London being in chaos, it was only because people are lazy. Commuters, in general, don't quite understand how easy it is to walk around the city. Hence the long ques for buses.
just5minutes - Member
The problem with the "get it automated" suggestion is that many of the tube lines already are - the drivers don't do any driving as such and would be better described as "cab based door operators"
Ah, the first 9 words of your post showed so much promise. ...and then you spoilt what could have been a thoughtful post by laying into the job descriptions of 3, no perhaps even 5% of the total workforce doing the striking.
I thought it was great to see so many people cycling everywhere yesterday .
They obviously have bikes, why anyone would want to use the hot sweaty tube when the weathers like this is beyond me !
[i]The managers who have to deal with industrial relations are not paid to do that, it is an additional task over and above their day job (or part of their job as well as the day job) which is to manage the business and make it a success. They are not like the hugely overpaid union leaders who basically have nothing to do all day but deal with industrial relations issues. And anyway the useless managers (so that'll be me then) don't have the nuclear solution like the workers do so the b balance of power is massively out of whack.[/i]
Eh? Managers ARE employed to ensure that 'relations' are cordial, it's a part of any Managers role.
Although I have (some) sympathy for the TfL Managers as they've also the political angle sat above them, something the private sector doesn't suffer from.
I'm in union I think they sorted out some good stuff for us in my last job.
The unions are not interested in that - it's their way or the highway, so not a negotiation.
What UTTER claptrap. In my personal experience, and in the experience of others posting above, it is more usually the employers that try to play hard ball. It is a sad fact that any strike represents a terminal failure of industrial relations and negotiations, and that should reflect equally badly on both parties. However, employers know that if a strike is forced public opinion will go against the strikers, not the employers, which leads to them being fairly happy to push it all the way. Plus, it's not like they are personally losing th ability to put food in the mouths of their children, unlike the strikers.
I know this is STW and we don't do this here, but can anyone point me to a summary of
a) what the tube workers want, and
b) what TfL offered
??
will - MemberCommuters, in general, don't quite understand how easy it is to walk around the city.
A lot of londoners are funny like this, it's like the city's made up of a hundred little domed outposts and folks only travel between them underground. Mate of mine had a bit of a meltdown when the tube was stopped and we had to get from earl's court to south kensington...
"Dear All my Commuter friends & anyone else who is interested in details of the strike action and dispute between TfL and their staff.
As you know I don’t usually comment on my work life as nobody really cares about other people’s jobs but due to some friends posting complete bullshit that they’ve copied and pasted from the media and haven’t got the common sense to ask someone who actually knows what they’re talking about now leaves me to enlighten you.
This dispute is not about money!
You can expect the usual barrage of total bollox in the media about “Greedy Overpaid Train Drivers” but this dispute has never been about money, It is about protecting work life balance and making sure that change in contracts are negotiated, not just imposed. And it’s not only Train drivers that voted for industrial action, it’s every grade of staff that works on the Underground network.
Protesters from the ASLEF and RMT unions stand at the locked gates of Brixton underground station during a tube strike in London on July 9, 2015. London's roads, buses and overland trains struggled to cope in Thursday's morning rush hour as commuters battled into work in the face of London Underground's first strike shutdown since 2002.
Everyone I work with that I know has given the same message, we cannot continue to have more and more weekend and anti-social hours working.
I have never been opposed to Night Tube, but it has to be introduced in a way that is fair; that recognises that staff are human beings with lives and families as well as a job.
The job I signed up to do works 1 week of nights over a 52 week period, sometimes 2 weeks if need be but under new terms I would have to work a minimum of 14 weeks of nights. I have a family, I would like to see them at weekend, shift work already takes a lot of that away. TfL can offer as much as they want, I work to live, not live to work.
TfL could have spent the last three months genuinely discussing how to resolve this dispute. They chose not to. They have not changed their position in any way (until yesterday, keep reading I’ll get to that).
If London comes to a halt this week, the people who should be blamed are not those who work hard to keep it moving all year round. It is the directors, and those above them, who simply do not believe that their staff have a right to a reasonable quality of life.
The gates of Brixton underground station are locked with a chain and padlocks during a tube strike in London on July 9, 2015. London's roads, buses and overland trains struggled to cope in Thursday's morning rush hour as commuters battled into work in the face of London Underground's first strike shutdown since 2002. AFP PHOTO / NIKLAS HALLE'NNIKLAS HALLE'N/AFP/Getty Images Brixton station locked today (Picture: Getty)
Yesterday’s events (Monday 6th July) at ACAS were really quite extraordinary. TfL having failed to change their offer for the last three months, now made a new proposal in the afternoon, but explained that it was “time bound” and would be “withdrawn if its conditions were not accepted by 18.30 this evening” by all four trade unions and industrial action was suspend.
TfL must have been aware that of course it would be impossible for Unions to comply with this ultimatum. Unions would need to properly consider the implications of the proposal and consult with Reps and their Executive Committees. Unions offered to return to ACAS at 12.00 today (Tuesday 7th July) to respond to the proposal but were told that it would be off the table after 18.30 today (Monday).
To be clear, Unions did not reject the offer. It has been withdrawn because the four Trade Unions were unable to comply with an utterly unrealistic “take it or leave it” ultimatum. It is pointless for Unions to express an opinion on an offer that no longer exists.
This now puts Unions in a position where there is no offer on pay, conditions or Night Tube on the table. It is difficult to believe that TfL are negotiating in good faith. Their offer seems to have been designed, not to resolve the dispute but to be used as a way to blame the Unions for what now seems to be inevitable industrial action.
Union members voted by a record breaking margin for industrial action.
I personally believe that TfL do not want to run a Night Tube service as it will cost them millions, the train and track are maintained to a minimum standard as it is but the Mayor of London announced it before it was ever discussed so they had to push ahead with it. I have a feeling TfL will now say it can’t run Night Tube due to the Unions but in reality they actually don’t want it.
Strike action will start from 21.30 on Wednesday 8th July.
Thanks for reading x"