[Closed] Tree planting 'threatening' Scotland's grand vistas

Irrelevant - they are a recovering population following the end of DDT use and against a background of persecution. there are huge tracts of land suitable for raptors without any. Habitat loss is not an issue.

the answer is about 60% of what they would be given no persecution

I don't really want to get sidetracked down an unproductive conversation

actual lol

So shooting is thriving, persecution is decreasing, BoP populations are rising? Sounds like a win win win to me- unless you have other agendas....

So how are the Hen Harriers doing in upland Wales with all that beautiful unshot Moorland??

Persecution is not decreasing. Raptor poulations are still struggling and persecution is causing real issues. thousands of raptors killed by gamekeepers over the last 20 years

Crosshair - you are a sensible seeming chap and most of the discussion has been good natured but you and others in the shooting industry who have a decent hearts should be helping the conservationists deal with the rogues who kill raptors not pretending it doesn't happen and spreading fatuous false information

I have no other agenda than conservation as you can see about my comments about other forms of blood sports. I have been involved in raptor conservatiuonm on and off for 40 years - not from a class war / Hunt sab type direction but from a conservation and tourism direction.

On one hand:

they are a recovering population

But then again:

Raptor poulations are still struggling

So which is it?

I'm certainly not denying it takes place and certainly not defending it- my heart sinks when another suspected case hits the news. I'm just questioning the extent of the impact relative to the overblown reactions.

The reactions are not overblown! Its a far more significant problem than the landowners will admit. dozens if not hundreds of the large birds of prey every year. Eagles, Ernes, Kites, Dunno where you are but in Scotland there is real anger over this and huge pressure for legislative change. Unless the responsible landowners help with the conservationists you risk all losing your shooting rights. You need to shun the killers not protect them as the landowner groups do.

One landowner in Scotland successfully prosecuted for raptor killings is still in the major organisation that represents them and is still receiving public money for his "conservation" Theses are the folk responsible landowners should be shunning

Squirrelking. Both. The populations of these birds is recovering but struggling to do so due to the killings

Unless the responsible landowners help with the conservationists you risk all losing your shooting rights. You need to shun the killers not protect them as the landowner groups do.

Ah, collective punishment now is it?

Just imagine if Donald suggested treating people like this based upon the actions of a minority...

Ninfan - its the pressure for legislation. Its not collective punishment. However the longer this goes on the harder it will be for folk to defend it and the greater the pressure for legislation. so shun the rogues throw them out of your oganisations or risk all being tarred with the same brush and hit by the same legislation

"Golden eagles also continue to be absent in many parts of the eastern Highlands. Less than one third of the traditional ‘home ranges’ in this area were occupied by a pair of eagles and no eagles were recorded at all in over 30% of them, despite the fact that these should be very productive landscapes for these birds. Many of the vacant territories in this area are on ground managed intensively for driven grouse shooting and in recent years, four eagles fitted with satellite tags have been found illegally killed in the central and eastern Highlands"

So the extent of this illegal persecution is far worse than the figures suggest?
The implication being that thousands extra are actually being killed per annum.
Yet still the populations rise! So do these also need to be added on to the population estimates too then?

I also question the accuracy of the statistics. Badgers are huge, live in easily discovered setts and are easy to watch with NV equipment. Yet look how badly they underestimated their populations for the cull!

Same stalker I mentioned earlier. Remarked that they had two successful broods of hen harriers that year. When I replied that the rspb next door must be pleased, his un-printable reply was that the last thing they would do is tell them as the place would be inundated with people.

The whole thing definitely falls into the heading 'post-fact politics!'

And until shooting is banned, 20yrs elapses and people realise that without the grouse and the predator control- you don't get the Harriers back anyway nobody is going to talk any sense on this issue.

crosshair - the proven cases are only the tip of the iceberg but its a serious and significant problem and pressure for legislation is rising.

sorry dude but you either do not want to hear or refuse to believe the extent. An eagle in Scotland has a 30% chance of being killed by gamekeepers. Get your house in order before the body politic does it for you

So you propose yet more legislation? It won't be long before every sodding aspect of our lives is legislated for and against.

The fact is, existing legislation just needs to be enforced rather than adding to it.

ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC

Round here they want to plant a commercial forest behind the town, where literally nobody goes. There is no easy access, you can't see it from most places and no existing tourism. You would think someone was proposing a baby shredding plant by the way the locals have reacted, claiming forestry isn't natural (??), that it would ruin the walking tourism (what walking tourism?) and then the usual "community benefit" money grabbing. At the rate they're going we'll end up with nothing. Some people just refuse to listen, that's what you're up against.

ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC

When has arguing down (or trying to) people who have greater topic knowledge been off-topic 😉

Par for the course really, why have a productive debate when you can debate bullshit and pedantry?

[quote=squirrelking ]The fact is, existing legislation just needs to be enforced rather than adding to it.

Theoretically. But what if it enforcing the existing legislation is too difficult to enforce and therefore doesn't result in sufficient deterrent? In that case it doesn't seem unreasonable to look at alternative legislation which might be more effective at solving the problem.

I don't believe that statistic. Either that it's solely gamekeepers killing Golden Eagles in the interest of preserving game or that the few FARMERS and gamekeepers that are undeniably responsible for some illegal killings kill close to 1 in 3 of the population.

Both the SGA and NGO have 0 tolerance towards illegal activities- the wider gamekeeping community is not implicit.

Brood management is a viable solution to the Hen Harrier dichotomy- pity the RSPB have walked away from it....

http://www.gwct.org.uk/wildlife/research/birds/raptors/hen-harrier/joint-recovery-plan/

Indeed aracer - hence the drive for licensing of shoots and the recent change in the law in Scotland to allow vicarious liability - first prosecution underway

crosshair - you need to look at why the RSPB walked away Its not 1/3 of the population each year - its that each individual bird has a 30% chance of getting killed by a gamekeeper over its lifetime ( 20 + years for eagles).
http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/martinharper/archive/2016/07/25/withdrawal-from-the-hhap.aspx

Ah, "nest destruction" - yes, whatever the cause or perpetrator, generally not known, but you can of course assume it's gamekepers, even on non game estates, because badgers and foxes are presumed to never do anything like this.

You think the burgeoning population of Buzzards and Red Kites ignore these fluffy grey easy meals?
My wife saw a Red Kite with two Tawny owl fledgelings last year!

@Countzero- yes because Birds of Prey all live in mutual harmony 😀

@Countzero- it was a nest in an Ivy clad dead oak tree- I went and found it later as I was curious too!
There was no sign of feathers on the floor and one was still alive when they were dropped.

Basically- a bird of prey is like a fish. It will shovel in any flesh, living or dead that it can fit in its beak- regardless of species.
I've seen (and I truly wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it) a Kestrel scavenge and eat a roadkill Collared Dove!!!

nature red in tooth and claw crosshair. I am under no illusions about this at all. I understand meat is animals, I understand nature is often violent and nasty.

did you read why the RSPB walked away?

Yes- it wasn't conducive to their fund-raising appeals 😀

😉

Crosshair - one minute I think you are a decent chap who wants to debate with folk with differing viewpoints then you come out with tosh like that. they walked away because the shooting side did not uphold their end and continued to kill hen harriers.

I've just seen this elsewhere, I don't think it's been posted before. It's a short clip showing natural renewal of Scots Pine on the Mar Lodge estate...

https://twitter.com/MarLodgeNTS/status/825026160220205056

PS - as a (relatively new) RSPB member I view them as being slow or unwilling to involve themselves in the whole driven grouse shooting scandal, as I see it. Possibly they are restricted by their original constitution.

How many winky smilies did you need TJ!

I don't think their logic stands up to any scrutiny. They threw their toys out of the pram.

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/alliance-statement-rspb-withdrawal-hen-harrier-action-plan/

Ok 🙄

they had no option as they were being played for patsies. the very folk who were supposed to be implementing the plan continued to kill hen harriers. NO progress at all was being made - by continuing with it they were giving the killers a fig leaf to cover themselves

Is a poor excuse. Just as the RSPB aren't responsible for all their members behaviour, nor are the GWCT responsible for theirs- or indeed estates with no links to any of the flagship organisations. By walking away from a potential solution, they made their true intentions clear. Power and control- fuelled by jealousy of private land ownership and stewardship on a scale they can only dream of.

The RSPB are so transparent it makes me cringe. Song birds are in decline right? Seriously so in many cases- like 60% + in a decade for some species.
Yet when asked whether the 55million song birds killed by cats every year are an issue they roll out their stock answer of

It is likely that most of the birds killed by cats would have died anyway from other causes before the next breeding season

Yet the 50 or so Raptors killed illegally each year- despite every species showing a population increase- are a national disaster.

Hypocrisy. Power. Control. Donations.

Nonsense crosshair. Its nothing to do with jealousy or power. Its about conservation. My father chaired the RSPB in scotland a a series of other conservation and education organisations for many years. A man less interested in power you would never meet. He was driven by a sense of public service and conservation.

Members of the organisations continued to kill hen harriers and the organisations did nothing about it apart from continuing to try to use the RSPB as a fig leaf.

while you continue to demonise the RSPB you will continue to drive shooting into a corner from which it will never escape.

crosshair - Member
...Licensing shoots seems to me to be about control and jealousy- the true source of most anti-shooting rhetoric I think.

Or maybe it's revulsion at the mentality of the the people whose idea of fun is to go kill something.

"We're gonna build a wall, a wall made out of trees to keep the Scots out, and we're gonna make em' pay for it"

Or something lyke.

Not read all the posts here as it has got long by the time I've found it, aware of the article, thread has gone off into minor semi-related squabble as expected.

My viewpoint summarised; trees are good, lots of them.

crosshair - why did the organisations that represent the shooters not expel people convicted of wildlife crimes?

For those wanting further education of upland moor management the book "Inglorious" provides a pretty good basis. Mind you only the first half was worth reading for me, the second half wandered a bit.

And most gamekeepers are bad if measured against the legislation.

I think unless they get their house in order and pretty quickly licensing will happen in Scotland. Then we will see a change a the criminal estates lose their licenses and the good ones reap the rewards

Ok- start another thread epicyclo if you'd like a serious answer to that one but in summary, it's pretty hard to function in the modern world without having equally as much blood on your hands as any who choose to pick up a gun- whether meat eater or perfect vegan.

TJ- just as there are good folk in the RSPB (they had a tent at the Game Fair and I thoroughly enjoyed speaking to the people on there) so there are bad eggs in shooting- and I don't speak in defence of those who should know better.
I don't know the exact incidents you are referring to but no keeper convicted of an offence could retain membership of the NGO or SGA.

Here you go crosshairs - one estate newlands, notorious for raptor persecution and with criminal convictions for its staff is merely suspended and the gamekeepers association refuses to say if the criminal gamekeeper involved has been removed from member ship.

This is also the estate that is under prosecution for vicarious liability and is doing its very best to lobby and wriggle its way out with the case now delayed a year
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2016/11/23/statement-from-wildlife-estates-scotland-on-membership-status-of-newlands-estate/

gamekeepers convicted of wildlife crime almost always retain their jobs

Have a read of this blog to understand the real scale of this and the difficulty in getting prosecutions. Especially this - yes its only hearsay -

Perhaps most revealing have been the extremely disturbing discussions with several individuals within the shooting world, typically gamekeepers, about the way many grouse shooting estates are actually operating. These people allege that the majority of driven grouse shooting estates are involved in some level of raptor persecution, though the scale of this can vary significantly. At the very worst end of the scale, some estates are reportedly killing in excess of 200 raptors per year, akin to the horrific accounts traditionally linked to the Victorian period.

From the wealth of evidence available, I have no doubt this is organised crime and, despite raptor persecution becoming one of the government UK wildlife crime priorities in 2009, I have not seen any meaningful improvement in the levels of enforcement.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/skydancer/b/skydancer/archive/2016/11/09/a-hen-harrier-named-rowan.aspx

recently-retired Chief Inspector Kevin Findlater MBE, a former senior wildlife crime officer

Illegal persecution of hen harriers on grouse moors will only stop when the risks of being caught outweigh the present benefits of committing such crimes. A realisation of this truth makes it easier to understand why such crimes take place and why current laws and the enforcement effort are ill suited to stopping them.

Such persecution takes place because those who manage grouse moors believe that the predatory impact of harriers on grouse, left unchecked, makes running a grouse moor financially unsustainable. Those prepared to break the law have considered both the risks of being caught and prosecuted are sufficiently unlikely they are prepared to countenance and sometimes undertake the illegal killing of harriers.

crosshair - Member
Ok- start another thread epicyclo if you'd like a serious answer to that one but in summary, it's pretty hard to function in the modern world without having equally as much blood on your hands as any who choose to pick up a gun- whether meat eater or perfect vegan.

It's killing animals for fun, or "sport" that I have a problem with.

Crosshairs / Ninfan ( I know he is taking a rest )

This map shows the scale of the issue.It related to golden eagles. green areas are favourable conservation status. amber unfavourale but only failed one test, red unfavourable failed more than one test. Purple dots are raptor persecution incidents
See the correlations? Red areas are mainly where the grouse moors are. Persecution incidents match fairly closely and again are mainly in the grouse moor areas.

[img] [/img]

If it hasn't been mentioned, Feral By George Monbiot is well worth the read on this. Having done so, and just received my copy 'Joining the Dots' yesterday (and this nothing against that), the pictures in it make me sad. The highlands are so obviously a desert once you've had your eyes opened to it