[Closed] traveller camps

mostly they do not want a fixed abode.

I give this an hour.

Beer, anyone? Got a bottle of TEA lined up myself.

is it so they can be in the right places to gather lucky heather ?

tea, in a bottle? lipton iced?

Ton, this TEA...

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🙂

Too much temptation to do naughty things 😛

Excuse my analytical brain, but one thing I have noted about this forum is that threads about gypsies/travellers/gypos/whatever really do not last very long on this site.

😆

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Mrmo - until relatively recently travellers could camp up in many places - common land and so on. This was changed by law so they could not. The local councils were obliged to provide sites for them as a result of this so they could still have somewhere to stop legally. the trouble is many do not - there is only about half the number of sites as there are travellers.

I know the history of these threads,

but i am genuinely curious to know why they are provided special sites, why aren't they forced to live in houses? forced to integrate if you will?

Surely integration would foster understanding of cultures, look at Ulster for what segregation does for community relations.

how exactly do you force someone to live in a house?

I worked for some gypsies a few years ago, they had bought a semi detached house in a cul de sac, they chopped all the trees down, took the front wall down, and put hard standing on what where the lawns and gardens, and parked large caravans on there, probably much to the neighbours annoyance, the thing is they where nice people to talk to, imaculate house and in their person.
Just seems a problem when they take the caravans on the road.

I understand that there is the site thing, but do many travellers actually travel in any meaningful way, if not then what is the difference between living in a house/Caravan/Static Home on a travellers site and living in a house in a housing estate?

Forced to integrate?

Mrmo these people have been travelling round these islands for a long time - when the right to camp on common land was removed they needed to have somewhere to stop hence the sites

Should you be forced to live somewhere you don't want to - lets have some integration and we must have people earning a lot of money living on sink estates for integration and dole scum living posh estates

What percentage of the population do travellers represent?

As with many rules there will be an exception to the rule, I guess.

Got a bottle of TEA lined up myself.

Typing this sat less than 2 miles from the brewery 🙂

Lucky heather anyone ?

So why are travellers given special sites and not simply offered housing?

Isn't that the problem - that they are not given sufficient/appropriate sites ? Even they buy their own land, they are rarely allowed to live their preferred lifestyle. The original idea to provide them with designated areas was to overcome illegal and inappropriate sites, I believe that the government under Thatcher removed the statutory responsibility of local authorities to provide them with a minimal amount of sites.

Either let them camp where they want, or provide them with alternatives. They are small in number and wherever possible people should be allowed to choose how they live. They are a small problem which could easily be resolved. But there lies the problem - small in numbers means small amount of votes, better to appease the outraged Daily Mail bigots.

As ton says, they do not want a fixed abode. And btw I like the way you suggest 'simply offering them housing' as a solution, as if there isn't a housing crises and we're awash with empty homes.

mrmo - Member

So why are travellers given special sites and not simply offered housing?

Because they don't want houses, and because the sites are massively, massively cheaper than giving them houses, oh and we have a huge council house shortage. What possible reason could there be to do otherwise?

Mrmo these people have been travelling round these islands for a long time

[i]these people[/i] ? hardly an homogenous entity. irish travellers are fairly recent immigrants and new age travellers haven't been around for a generation yet. so are you just talking about romany gypsies ?

For a people who are so small in numbers they do seem to leave an asymmetrical mess wherever they lay their hats...

Should you be forced to live somewhere you don't want to - lets have some integration and we must have people earning a lot of money living on sink estates for integration and dole scum living posh estates

Well they build social housing in most estates these days so that is happening?

anyway, If you accept that understanding is the problem, that there are serious deficiencies in education then surely these should be addressed? As for not wanting to live in houses, they are legally allowed to live in ghettos? this is what i find so odd.

Strange how everywhere the council want to build a new site, the locals suddenly fid its infected with Bats, or crested newts as has happened twice in cheshire recently.

Both protected species.

I recall as a youngster travelling round the Scottish Highlands in my Dads car in the summer and we'd see lots of travellers - "tinkers" we'd call them. They'd be off doing seasonal work on farms, fixing stuff (they had a tradition as tin-smiths, hence the nickname), odd-jobs and a bit of pearl fishing. There was quite a few in the 60s, but the numbers steadily dwindled. Some of that was due to the fact that they'd settle down, get a "regular" job in the winter months and not be up for the travelling.

My Dad also had this habit of finding these out-of-the-way camp spots for us and it was many years later I found out they had been regular sites for the travellers too. Over the years, these sites became fenced off or developed/planted by the landowners and no replacements have been made available, despite legislation demanding that councils do just that.

The culture of the "genuine" traveller has been with us for centuries. They have their own language (some of which has been borrowed by the Scots - e.g. radge), song, poetry and customs. They have a right for that culture to continue.

However, most of that ^ has little to do with the Irish (and other) travellers we're now seeing over here in increasing numbers and I don't see why we have any obligation to provide sites for them.

I could be wrong but I've read that some certainly like to live as a large family group in close proximity. Not easily dealt with given the current state of council housing.

^^^^

Rights come with responsibilities and sadly some people seem to forget about that (this statement also applies to non-"travellers").

I used to work over in Rosyth and their were a bit group of travellers who used to pitch up in the carpark regularly every year and I could not understand some of the things they used to get up to like stripping trees of bark and then setting fire to mature trees as well (plus lots of other unsavoury stuff), just plain weird stuff in my opinion.

One other thing to note is that they would only turn up from May through to July (when they were evicted) and I used to wonder where they live for the rest of the year, particularly the winter as the last two winters must have been hard going living in caravans.

do we have increasing numbers of travellers from Ireland?

I know teenage offspring of 'new age travelers'. Is that not a new generation?

you still haven't made yourself clear with reagrd to [i]these people[/i] being around for a long time tj, so i'll repeat

these people ? hardly an homogenous entity. irish travellers are fairly recent immigrants and new age travellers haven't been around for a generation yet. so are you just talking about romany gypsies ?

Irish travellers aren't a new phenomenon at all, why would you think that? The first official record of irish travellers in the UK is over 150 years ago. They weren't officially recognised in the census etc til recently which seems to confuse some people.

these people - travellers - irish tinkers, roma, the summer walkers of the highlands new age travellers

all treated the same in legislation. travelling people have been in the UK for a long time.

The bottle is now empty. All I have left is a bottle of Mount Gay Extra Old.

I have plenty of ice ready as well. So, who'll join me?

Irish travellers aren't a new phenomenon at all, why would you think that? The first official record of irish travellers in the UK is over 150 years ago. They weren't officially recognised in the census etc til recently which seems to confuse some people.

brilliant, there's no census data so it's obviously people on the opposite side of your argument who are confused 😆

as i understand it, the vast majority of irish travellers in the uk are a result of the motorway construction boom post wwii which would certainly make them recent arrivals.

i'll gladly admit to being confused about that if it helps.

these people - travellers - irish tinkers, roma, the summer walkers of the highlands new age travellers

all treated the same in legislation. travelling people have been in the UK for a long time.

well then the law is clearly an ass because new age travellers have very obviously not been in the uk for a long time. if you want to pay for their lifestyle choices, go ahead.

Ah well - enjoy your ignorance.

Irish tinkers were going onto the farm my family came from around the turn of the century that I know of.

New age traveller have been travelling the country since before the right to camp on common land was removed.

Ah well - enjoy your ignorance.

i'm sure you don't want to appear a pompous arse that resorts to insults once you've lost the argument so i'll give you the chance to prove the antiquity of the new age traveller movement.

🙄

Trailmonkey, TJ is more than happy to appear, and to be, a pompous ass. He has displayed this on numerous occasions. In my opinion, he should stop arguing on here so much and get a life, but that's only my opinion.

so you can't.

because you can't,

Ah well - enjoy your ignorance.

🙄

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i think we're seeing a new variation of the EDL

No trailmonkey - what you are seeing is that I cannot be bothered with you. this was a reasonable discussion until you joined it.

Just finished working ... Anyone fancy joining me in a nicely chilled glass of pinot grigo and some Tyrrells hand cooked crisps?

The trouble is when the feelings and beliefs of left-leaning people like me actually meet with the cold reality of how traveller families sometimes work. I get to deal a little bit with travellers, not as much as my wife. Some strong matriarchal families. Some where physical and other abuse within families seems common. Some where they define them self as different from the Gorgie and out to take them for what they can. I know too many people I trust who have witnessed stuff getting nicked, threats of violence etc to believe in a romantic rural idyll of honest travellers.

What is the answer? No idea.

why not tj because i've made a valid point - that is not based on prejudice or ignorance - that you cannot answer.

there is no way that you can back up that new age travellers have been in the uk for a long time which is what you claimed.

for some reason you think that this is ample reason to insult me.

classy bloke.

Already a fair smattering of ignorance on this thread. Disappointed really.

Usual internet problem- people expressing opinion with apparent authority, whilst betraying a lack of education or insight.

there is no way that you can back up that new age travellers have been in the uk for a long time which is what you claimed.

Did I? really? where?

As for insults................

I've no idea why you're focusing so much on new age travellers, they're barely relevant- when people talk about "travellers", do they generally mean some hippies in a flower bus? Course not. An understanding of context is useful so that people don't have to specify and explain every tiny detail.

TJ, FFS, get a life. Please. For your own health and well being, if not for being so boring on here.

Seriously, old chap, you need to learn to stop. You need to learn to realise that your opinion is not always right and even when it is, some people don't or won't want to listen to it. So, you should just sit down, maybe have a beer or read a good book or something, but FFS please just stop arguing about EVERYTHING!

Did I? really? where?

here

Mrmo these people have been travelling round these islands for a long time

these people - travellers - irish tinkers, roma, the summer walkers of the highlands [b]new age travellers[/b]

I've no idea why you're focusing so much on new age travellers, they're barely relevant

because they are relevant. i think lots of people are confused as to why they are offered protection under racial law and why they should be entitled to be sited at the taxpayers expense because of their lifestyle choices not because of any cultural heritage.

mrmo - Member

I am curious why Irish travellers/Gypsies are provided with sites

TandemJeremy - Member

Mrmo these people have been travelling round these islands for a long time

Hey ho capt. I have been trying to be good an all. 😳

trailmonkey - Member

because they are relevant

Not to this thread, no. Well, except for your heroic derail.

eh ? it's a thread about traveller camps, how can new age travellers not be relevant ?

i rather think that they're only irrelevant if their inclusion in the debate undermines your argument,

right, i'm out, as always with these threads, you either tow the pc line or you're obviously some kind of daily mail bigot and i'd hate to be tarred with that brush when my only intention was to counter tj's pomposity.

trailmonkey - Member

anyhow tj brought them in then

You realise anyone who cares can just click back to page 1 and see that this is a lie? Or possibly a delusion, but I think it's a lie.

And a sneaky edit too... Though too slow to be effective.

Christ. New age travellers have absolutely nothing to do with the OP's intended discussion about "Travellers' camps".

New age travellers were doing their thing when I was growing up. They were loosely associated with environmental concerns, good drugs, free festivals and dogs on a bootlace.

Travellers, in the case of the OP could perhaps be categorised into Irish travellers, settled building and horse-dealing travellers, and the real-deal-Romany-travellers.

The creation of ghettos is always a BAD THING. It creates divsiveness in communities. Give the travellers somewhere to live on a brownfield site and they're happy. Most of the sites here in the North East are between industrial estates in the middle of fekkin nowhere. The locals aren't bothered because the nearest houses are far away. The residents of said sites are only there for half the year anyway (I know this as I have to deliver photos to them and half the time, their relatives have to pay for them as they're away travelling).

New age travellers have absolutely nothing to do with the OP's intended discussion about "Travellers' camps".

No, but for some bizarre reason someone wanted to nitpick what TJ had said. And all the more bizarre because despite repeatedly rereading his comments, I can't see anything particularly "controversial" with what he said.

I guess it was just a "let's have a pop at TJ for no particular reason" moment.

ernie_lynch - Member

No, but for some bizarre reason someone wanted to nitpick what TJ had said.

Actually, what he hadn't said.

On the Irish thing...I've just been thinking...there has (as long as I've know and long before) existed a specific special relationship between the UK and Ireland, regarding free movement between the two countries. For example, even before the EEC, EU, etc, an Irish citizen could stroll into the UK, get an NI number, a job, draw dole, use the NHS, vote in UK parliamentary elections (still the only other country's citizens that can do this AFAIK) and lots of other stuff. Perhaps some of this might help in understanding why Irish travellers are afforded such rights.

My comments, as always, are made independently. In the main, they were made as a refutation of Trailmonkey's argument. I did read the whole thread and was briefly aware of all contributors, but some posts stood out...

DD .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland
....your "special relationship".

A question for those that might know (I don't). If half a million Irish crossed to the UK and declared themselves homeless, would the UK be obliged to house them, feed them, give them Social Security??

Dunno druidh, but the average iQ of this landmass would rise dramatically. 😛

🙂

TJ, FFS, get a life. Please. For your own health and well being, if not for being so boring on here.

Heh! Pots and kettles! You've contributed nothing to this thread other than to announce your presence, in some desperate attempt to be noticed, then have a pop at TJ as usual. Why not take your own advice?

And TJ is far, far more inertesting than you. FACT.

As for travelling folk; I recently met some traveller kids on a small site, and asked them for directions back to the river path. They were really friendly, and showed me the way. Just by their site, there was a large pile of old tyres and scrap white goods. One kid saw me looking at it, and said 'people come and dump stuff here all the time, and we get the blame for it'.

Another little piece of the puzzle fell into place that day...

Now I'm a bit lost. Why would happy, settled Irish types suddenly leave their brand new, unsympathetically built bungalows and decide to move to broken Britain? 🙂

Just to clarify. These days, there are far more 'genuine' travellers than there are new age types.

Please see the writings of [i]Pete Loveday[/i] for further clarification.

EDIT; not that I've anything against crusty types protesting against motorway extensions or the like...

Actually, can't really read that wiki article on my jellybone druidh. Are we afforded more privileges than your common or garden EU citizen or am I talking out my arse ( there's a first time for everything)?

and scrap white goods

[i]RACIST[/i].........nothing good was ever black ? 😐

Sorry, scrap household appliances. Stuff like wash-mashins, frijiz, microwabe ovens, that sort of stuff.

What about canal boat dwellers? I've noticed an exponential increase in their numbers over the last few years, and I unserdtand that the price of boats is rising steeply as demand soars. Obviously a result of the ridiculous cost of housing, speshly in That London.

Most of 'em are fine, nice people. Bit 'New Age' some of them, but polite, generally quite well-educated and a diverse range of skills amongst them. There's a minority though who dump all sorts of junk on the towpath, use it as an extension of their home, show a lack of courtesy to and consideration for other towpath users, and are generally not very nice.

The worst people I've ever encountered have bin permanent home dwellers.

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I just dont understand how these folk are travellers? Some of them stay in the same place for years. Just folk who wont pay for anything IMO.

I think they're ethnically 'travellers' but habitually 'stationary'

I think they're ethnically 'travellers' but habitually 'stationary'

So why are they allowed to live in special ghettos? You get complaints about racial integration in certain parts of the country because of self imposed ghettos and here we have a policy that is enforcing this through law?

Do new age travellers still exist?

They used to be great in my teenage yeara to score acid, e's and grass etc !

Dont seem them afround anymore - but maybe I am not looking!

I thought new age travellers got called protestors now.

We had some travellers turn up on some common land in a town near where I live. About 2 weeks later my car was taken from my drive, using keys aquired by breaking into my house. The crime was traced back to one of the said travellers and he's now been convicted. So I can understand, perhaps better than most why they have a bad name.

IN MY OPINION I think you have good types and bad types as with every other cross section of the population. Sadly certain groups don't endear themselves by trashing where ever they stay, stealing and generally being a PITA. Are all travellers like this? No, of course not.

The pagan festivals became larger and larger due to rave sound systems tagging along. The government and plod could no longer turn a blind eye so spent a small fortune stopping said festivals. New agers lost there reason for traveling.