[Closed] Training and diet talk...

I think fueling for events was posted by Solo on the last thread, Yeti. What I suggested on the previous page will do if you're doing a training ride with iDave. If you're properly racing at at an intesity that makes chewing difficult then put a Powergel in as well so that you can still get soemthing down if there isn't a descent steep enough for eating when freewheeling.

I generally look at the profile of the course before the start and spot the points I think it'll be easiet to eat and pee on the fly. On long events some descents are long enough to munch through half a sandwich sandwich especially if there isn't a climb imemdiatley after.

Time for a swim.

You pee in races? Well then you can't be going very hard. I never pee on rides therefore you must be a wuss*

* sarcastic post

...that and you usually have a break in the middle for toilet breaks, draw cash out etc 8)

LOL @ Jamie.

Feel free to use this thread to give me G[s]r[/s]i[s]e[/s]f about swimming on.

Edukator - just tell me what to have for tea tomorrow then??

Feel free to use this thread to give me Grief about swimming on.

[img] [/img]

down if there isn't a descent steep enough for eating when freewheeling.

TSY - hmm I really should've seen that coming. I'm currently down to ~15 stone. That's from 16 10 (a personal high, or should that not be low, point) about 5 weeks ago.

It's not for no reason I'm on the biffers idiet...

Edukator - Member
For many people with sedentary jobs it will mean getting over 60% of their energy from body fat assuming they burn 3000 calories a day and they get 1000 calories from their iDave intake.

Burning 3000 calories a day doesn't sound particularly sedentary.

For many people with sedentary jobs it will mean getting over 60% of their energy from body fat assuming they burn 3000 calories a day and they get 1000 calories from their iDave intake.

WTF are you on about? Do you think the iDave diet is calorie restricted to 1000kcal per day? It would appear that you are in fact a bored troll who hasn't taken the time to actually look into the diet you so vehemently criticize.

The fact that you thought that advising to eat carbs during endurance exercise is 'anti-iDave' advice backs that up further.

iDave you claim 2kg a week weight loss, that's over 2000 calories a day of body fat to be burnt. A small inactive person wouldn't lose that if they ate next to nothing and a typical STWer would only lose that if they were getting less than 1000 calories a day from food. Even if they lost 2kg in the first week the body would by then be in famine mode and losing more at that rate would become a painful experience.

Your diet has a red light section that says no white carbs, no ceraels and no fruit. That leaves pulses and vegetables which are such low calorie sources of carbs I doubt anyone would cope with the portion sizes to provide enough carbs for an endurance athlete. especially as many of them are notorious for givng people wind.

Do you acuse everyone that disagrees with you of trolling, iDave?

Tea Yeti? A cup of tea and a piece of fruit. Or do you mean dinner? If the day after is a big sporting day then spaghetti, fish such mackerel, a side salad and fruit for desert.

Tea as in the meal you have when you get home from work!

But you've answered my question, so thanks. What about for breakfast that morning?

That leaves pulses and vegetables which are such low calorie sources of carbs I doubt anyone would cope with the portion sizes to provide enough carbs for an endurance athlete

[i]iDave you claim 2kg a week weight loss[/i]

Err. don't think he does.
More like 1-2lb per week.

[i]That leaves pulses and vegetables which are such low calorie sources of carbs I doubt anyone would cope with the portion sizes to provide enough carbs for an endurance athlete[/i]

This is why you are being called a Troll.

You know that the iDave diet isn't for endurance athletes.
Yet you post what you have.

Its the very definition of Trolling, if ever there was one.
😉

You're not very good at this are you ?.

Perhaps you should stick to your Rock n Roll dancing.

iDave you claim 2kg a week weight loss, that's over 2000 calories a day of body fat to be burnt. A small inactive person wouldn't lose that if they ate next to nothing and a typical STWer would only lose that if they were getting less than 1000 calories a day from food. Even if they lost 2kg in the first week the body would by then be in famine mode and losing more at that rate would become a painful experience.

But that doesn't happen, so what you understand about fat loss must be incorrect? Or have the iDave dieters been imagining things? Either you're wrong or their real life documented experience is wrong.

Which do you think is most likely? Your understanding is outdated or many people (not just on STW) have been imagining things?

When you understand that it's not calories in and calories out, you might start to see the light.

ton, have you been starving yourself? Are you in famine mode?

EDIT - the iDave diet is for endurance athletes also, but they would use some carbs before during and after some training and events.

New login, Solo?

[img] [/img]

That leaves pulses and vegetables which are such low calorie sources of carbs

^ This is trolling

Lentils (all per 100g)
Energy (cal) 99
Protein 7.6g
Carb 17g
Fat 0.5g

Half the calories, but twice the protein of white/whoelmeal bread. About a tenth to a fifth of the GI of white bread.

How much carb do you need a day?

[Edit] More importantly how much carb do biffers like me [b][u]NEED[/b][/u] a day?

Matt

Does consumption of too much muesli impact on one's ability to read and retain facts? I think i might switch to cheesecake for breakfast.

I reckon Edukator hasn't read the diet sheet. Otherwise he'd realise that even if one was eating a calorie deficit the day seven 'eat what you want' reward would stop it kicking in. This day would also help top up any glycogen stores a biffer might have neglected to replenish by not following the diet properly.

Jamie.
[i]Hello Solo.[/i]
❓

[i]EDIT - the iDave diet is for endurance athletes also, but they would use some carbs before during and after some training and events. [/i]

So, thats iDave diet, plus Carbs then.
But there are carbs in the iDave diet anyway.
❓ ❓

I reckon Edukator hasn't read the diet sheet.

There's a diet sheet? How do I get a copy?

2kg a week it says here on the iDave diet posted earlier on this thread:

[url= https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bw_T87IBJ5crZTE0YmU1OTMtOGM0Yy00MTk5LTk1OGUtMjY5NzY1NDk4YWNi/edit?authkey=CNeXx-wG&pli=1 ]iDave diet posted a few pages back.[/url]

It strkes me that the people using the iDave diet on this thread are endurance athletes or aspire to be endurance athletes. People on STW are generally MTBers, a sport which generally involves riding a bike for hours at a time on a regualr basis.

So, momentum, are you now prepared to retract your accusation of trolling?

matt_bl - Member

How much carb do you need a day?

The first hit on google (and that always the one with the most facts) says 180-230. So three bowls of muesli.

People on STW are generally MTBers, a sport which generally involves riding a bike for hours at a time on a regualr basis.

pmsl, stop it, i'm choking on my chips.

right, time to go off and do something awesome

There's a diet sheet? How do I get a copy?

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/training-and-diet-talk#post-3675618 ]It's here.[/url]

So, momentum, are you now prepared to retract your accusation of trolling?

But that doesn't happen, so what you understand about fat loss must be incorrect? Or have the iDave dieters been imagining things? Either you're wrong or their real life documented experience is wrong.

Which do you think is most likely? Your understanding is outdated or many people (not just on STW) have been imagining things?

In your own time..

[i]So, momentum, are you now prepared to retract your accusation of trolling? [/i]

Oh no.

Thats my opinion on you here and matt has pointed this out better than me up there ^^^^

[i]That leaves pulses and vegetables which are such low calorie sources of carbs

^ This is trolling

Lentils (all per 100g)
Energy (cal) 99
Protein 7.6g
Carb 17g
Fat 0.5g

Half the calories, but twice the protein of white/whoelmeal bread. About a tenth to a fifth of the GI of white bread.

How much carb do you need a day?

[Edit] More importantly how much carb do biffers like me NEED a day?

Matt
[/i]

2kg a week it says here on the iDave diet posted earlier on this thread:

yep.. and people do!

I've recommend this to 3 mates(mountain bikers) and all have lost around 1.5-2kg in teh first week and haven't counted any calories or restricted portion sizes

CaptJon - Member

matt_bl - Member

How much carb do you need a day?

The first hit on google (and that always the one with the most facts) says 180-230. So three bowls of muesli.

But also perfectly possible to get from vegetables and pulses!

Another key difference is the slightly larger portion sizes that can be eaten of iDave compliant food will actually fill you up and due to the higher protein content (compared to bread/potatoes etc) produce a feeling of satiety.

Matt

Me, 1500 to 2500 calories worth of carbs a day, more if I'm really acitve. I prefer getting my protein from fish, meat, cheese and other tasty things as I realy don't get on with lentils.

I've recommend this to 3 mates(mountain bikers) and all have lost around 1.5-2kg in teh first week and haven't counted any calories or restricted portion sizes

I read last night that for every gram of carbs stored in our muscles will be accompanied by 3-4g of water... is there any truth in this?

Edukator - Member
Me, 1500 to 2500 calories worth of carbs a day, more if I'm really acitve. I prefer getting my protein from fish, meat, cheese and other tasty things as I realy don't get on with lentils.

Muesli is pretty carb dense at 78g per 100g, and worth 340 calories. To get 2500 calories that is 730g of muesli. Not sure what the milk would add.

yes it is true TSY

Whole milk 66 cal/100g
Semi 46
Skim 34

Hmmm... so does the iDiet have any impact on glycogen stores in it's first week?

[i]iDave - Member

But that doesn't happen, so what you understand about fat loss must be incorrect? Or have the iDave dieters been imagining things? Either you're wrong or their real life documented experience is wrong.

Which do you think is most likely? Your understanding is outdated or many people (not just on STW) have been imagining things?

In your own time..
[/i]

ha, ha.

Edukatroll wont answer iDaves question.

😆

2kg a week it says here on the iDave diet posted earlier on this thread:

I think that comes from the experience of many many people eating like this. I don't think he made it up.

You are basing your calculations on very simple science, which the scientific community is learning is not really very accurate at all. You should also learn this.

You seem to think exercise is the only way fat can leave your body...

Personally I think we should applaud Edukator... his dogged determination makes him an ideal candidate for endurance sports... he could race an Ironman on nothing.

Edukator - Member
Me, 1500 to 2500 calories worth of carbs a day, more if I'm really acitve. I prefer getting my protein from fish, meat, cheese and other tasty things as I realy don't get on with lentils

To be honest I only added lentils as an example, other beans, chickpeas, sweet potatoes are as good if not better carb-wise. I recommend McCance and Widdowson if you need nutrient info.

I also get protein from those sources. My breakfast this morning was eggs scrambled with chorizo, puy lentils and steamed greens.

Matt

I don't put milk on my müesli CaptJon. Hot water and fruit with a natural yohurt accasionally. I like cheese, especially goat's and sheep's cheese but don't drink milk.

Obviously I don't just eat müesli; bread, pasta, pizza base, occasionally rice, fruit ... too. Could you work out how many kgs of vegetables I'd have to eat Cap'n, several kilograms no doubt when burning 4-5000 calories a day X-C skiing. You see the problem? Training with a bloated stomach is unpleasant and high intensity training with a full stomach a very bad idea. So something a little more energy dense is useful.

Edit: I eat potatoes too, Matt, but they are the iDave red list "no" category. I eat a few vegetables too, carrots, peas and French green beans (the ones picked when they a very small).

The idea that you can fool your body into thinking it's not hungry by filling your stomach with low-calorie stodge or satisfying fat is false imo for two reasons. 1/ your stomach adapts to portion size and composition. 2/ hunger is also your body's way of telling you it needs fuel and that has as much to do with all this blood sugar stuff we've been talking about as with how full you are.

With all this talk of carbs for energy, what about the paleo theory of getting a large proportion of your energy from fat? I'm not talking about "optimum" nutrition for training/racing/etc but more for an active "average" joe. Is it be possible/sensible to derive a lot of energy from fats and mainly use (simple) carbs to refuel glycogen after activity?

With all this talk of carbs for energy, what about the paleo theory of getting a large proportion of your energy from fat? I'm not talking about "optimum" nutrition for training/racing/etc but more for an active "average" joe. Is it be possible/sensible to derive a lot of energy from fats and mainly use (simple) carbs to refuel glycogen after activity?

Worth a read:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-should-athletes-use-fat-or-carbohydrate-as-fuel-631

http://waroninsulin.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

So something a little more energy dense is useful.

But don't carbs and protein (I'm assuming you're comparing these) have the same calories per gram i.e. 4

If you want more energy\calorie dense, then fat would be better at 9 cals per gram?

EDIT: or do you mean the body gets more energy out of the 4 cals per gram from carbs than protein?

Could you work out how many kgs of vegetables I'd have to eat Cap'n, several kilograms no doubt when burning 4-5000 calories a day X-C skiing

According to the diet plan, you would not have to do that.

You really have not understood it properly have you? Honestly. Let us explain it to you properly before slagging it off.

It specifically says you are allowed to have simple carbs during exercise. If you are XC skiing for hours a day, that is exercise, so you would eat simple carbs. I don't know why you are not getting this.

The idea that you can fool your body into thinking it's not hungry by filling your stomach with low-calorie stodge or satisfying fat is false imo for two reasons

I absolutely agree, but again that's not the point of the diet. Please listen to us, we are trying to explain it to you.

Edukator - Member
I don't put milk on my müesli CaptJon. Hot water and fruit with a natural yohurt accasionally. I like cheese, especially goat's and sheep's cheese but don't drink milk.

Obviously I don't just eat müesli; bread, pasta, pizza base, occasionally rice, fruit ... too. Could you work out how many kgs of vegetables I'd have to eat Cap'n,

No, do it yourself.

several kilograms no doubt when burning 4-5000 calories a day X-C skiing. You see the problem? Training with a bloated stomach is unpleasant and high intensity training with a full stomach a very bad idea. So something a little more energy dense is useful.

Own up now, are you stupid or trolling? On the iDD you can have simple carbs before, during and after intense exercise such as cross country skiing.

[i]I absolutely agree, but again that's not the point of the diet. Please listen to us, we are trying to explain it to you. [/i]

No, Edukatroll is explaining it to you.
You must eat cheese and museli.

I haven't used the word "must" anywhere. "How about", "try", "I suggest" are the words I use.

I'm not camparing protein and carbs, Bellerophon, I'm comparing the volume of iDave approved vegetables I'd need to eat with spaghetti and pointing out that I'd be too full and farty to ride a bike comfortably if I ate enough veg to replace the carbs I get from iDave red list spaghetti.

I've tried training on more fat, Jamie, adding cheese and ham and/or olive oil to my breakfast every other day. It doesn't seem to make much difference to me so long as there are adequate carbs too. If it works for you, do it.

I'm not camparing protein and carbs, Bellerophon,

Ah ok, I should've read all the thread, got a bit lazy 😳 as you were

I'm comparing the volume of iDave approved vegetables I'd need to eat with spaghetti and pointing out that I'd be too full and farty to ride a bike comfortably if I ate enough veg to replace the carbs I get from iDave red list spaghetti

But you are ignoring the rules about eating simple carbs around and during riding. Why do you keep doing this?

But you are ignoring the rules about eating simple carbs around and during riding.

Worth a read:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-should-athletes-use-fat-or-carbohydrate-as-fuel-631

http://waroninsulin.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
br />

I'm making some bacon, cashew, lentil, scrambled egg, peanut butter and raisin energy bars for Sundays 93 miler. They're bloody gorgeous.

The idea that you can fool your body into thinking it's not hungry by filling your stomach with low-calorie stodge or satisfying fat is false imo for two reasons. 1/ your stomach adapts to portion size and composition. 2/ hunger is also your body's way of telling you it needs fuel and that has as much to do with all this blood sugar stuff we've been talking about as with how full you are.

1 and 2) I said protein not fat. A demonstrable effect, in others, as shown in various nutrition journals. To my body stodge is your bread, pizzas etc.

A diet higher in protein results in reduced calorific intake, where no restriction on calories is applied.

The precise mechanism is not understood, but does not appear related to either of the hormones ghrelin or leptin.

Please actually read what is written before you dismiss it.

Matt

[Edit] How well do those go with a brew Dave?

They go well

I use this recipe, and replace rice with lentils. I also add the eggs raw and tray bake it all.

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/nutrition/The-Best-Energy-Bar-Ever.html

beans are also high in carbs. I'm just looking at a packet borlotti beans which I've pulled out the cupboard.

per100g
protein 23g
carbs 60.1
of which sugars 2g
fibre 24g

pretty nutritious although I'm not quite sure where they get the figures from as it adds up to 107g!

Kev

Ta, I'll give them a go when I get the running/riding miles up.

5Km at the local parkrun doesn't call for much in the way of additional nutrition.

Matt

Kev,

Fibre can be carbs as well and they don't always analyse all of these things.

The carbs is often calculated by difference, subtract protein, moisture, fat (fibre) from a hundred.

The correction for moisture is not always carried out. It's a very imprecise science to be honest, even the protein is a guess!

Matt

Plus those are the dry figures I believe. I doubt you'd eat 100g of those beans when soaked and cooked, but you'd easy stick 2 slices of bread down between meals, which would be the same amount of carbs.

I really don't think you can get as much carbs this way as you would eating bread, pasta and potatoes, but I do think you can get as many carbs as you need for daily living and some exercise.

You DO need simple carbs if you are doing loads of exercise, but the timing is critical. You have to eat them around exercise.

Molgrips is more than likely right here. If you halved all of those figures once the beans are rehydrated, you wouldn't be miles away.

He's wrong about one thing though, I could easily put 200g of rehydrated beans away, especially with some garlic and olive oil 😀

Matt

yup you're right those are the dry figures. Cooked is quite a bit less. What I was getting at though is that the figures are similar to pasta and spaggetti, no ? which I presume is given in uncooked form. Pasta is usually about 70% carbs at a guess ?

Kev

Kev,

Couldn't agree more. I don't think the difference means that you would have to spend all day with your nose in the trough to get the same amount of nutrients, when you remove those bread/pasta/white type carbs from your diet.

Matt

I'm making some bacon, cashew, lentil, scrambled egg, peanut butter and raisin energy bars for Sundays 93 miler. They're bloody gorgeous.

*cough* 🙂

so... it begs the question, why do some people feel they're not getting enough carbs from eating beans when quite clearly there's plenty there?

Kev

The question that shall not be answered, thread would be over and TSY would have to start a new one.

Matt

I personally don't feel that beans etc give me enough after hard exercise.

I still eat porridge for breakfast post training and do eat a fair bit of fruit every day, but...

When asked how I'd got so lean(there is definitely room for improvement)by a random bloke in the gym today I cited the iDiet, training on empty in the morning and no more daily drinking.

Don't make me do it Matt, just don't!

someone must know something as to why this is, what is different about the composition of carb content in beans to that of pasta and rice etc?

Kev

I'm simple so... it'd seem to me that you can get a hell of a lot more carbs, more quickly in bread etc than you can in beans?

It's easy to eat a stick of French bread in one sitting... how many beans would I have to eat to get the same carbs/calories?

I believe it is related to the soluble fibre content in the beans

Yeti...

Calories
A 2-oz. serving of French baguette contains 150 calories. By comparison, the French baguette contains about the same number of calories as a 2-oz. serving, usually about two slices, of sliced white or wheat bread.

Carbohydrates
The bulk of the calories in the French baguette come from its carbohydrate content. A 2-oz. serving contains 30 to 32 g of carbohydrates, about the same amount found in two slices of white or wheat bread.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/529715-nutritional-information-of-a-french-baguette/

so about 100g of beans? not that difficult to eat.

Kev

when I've cooked the pot of beans tomorrow that I have in soak tonight I shall weigh 100g and see if it's any different to the normal portion I'd eat. I know I eat 100g of dried rice when it's cooked as I weigh it before throwing it in the saucepan.

Kev

400g of beans.
[img] [/img]

There is 54g of carbs in a can of baked beans, that isn't much to eat. I usually have a can on three bits of toast.

But the key difference is the insulin response, not the calorific content per se.

I believe that the lower insulin response is related to the soluble fibre content of the beans and pulses.

Gentleman. May I point out it's Friday night, and you are chatting about beans.

Right. Erm...as you were.

Not just chatting about beans, i'm soaking in a bath of them. The joys of wifi.

alot of the carbs in a can of baked beans will be sugar though, but it gives an idea of the weight of cooked beans. I expect I'll be eating more than 100g of them then.

so... one person has mentioned the soluble fibre content, so is it then that a percentage of the carb content in beans isn't metabolised into the glycogen stores which is leaving people still feeling hungry? just guessing now, but it would be interesting to find out.

Kev

[i]Gentleman. May I point out it's Friday night, and you are chatting about beans.[/i]

oh the joys of STW

I am drinking red wine and talking about beans... I'm also too busy working whilst you lot are on it all day!

oddjob.. I just read your line about the insulin.

Kev

Not just chatting about beans, i'm soaking in a bath of them. The joys of wifi.

So its more like beans and sausage?

Almost a full english.

It's ok, I've had a couple of pints of mediterranean beer and half a bottle of red in keeping with the theme.

So, how many oz in a whole stick of french bread?

Depends. Best bet is buy one and weigh it.