[Closed] Training and diet talk...

...then eat it with a load of butter?

Quick note about "dietary calories" (chemical kilocalories) - they are defined as the amount of energy it takes to raise the temperature of 1 kilogram of water 1 degree C at sea level when oxidised (burned) to completion in an atmosphere of pure oxygen.

Whilst a useful measure of potential energy content this is obviously not how the body obtains energy from food. This is dependent upon a variety of factors such as aerobic Vs anaerobic metabolism, rate at which molecules can be transported both around the body and across membranes, availability of metabolic co-factors (vitamins/minerals etc) and enzyme levels (to name a few of the obvious ones).

So if your body looks like this:
[img] [/img]

then count calories to your heart's content, otherwise be slightly more circumspect about eating by numbers.

is that Molly's insides ?

...then eat it with a load of butter?

No. The butter goes in your Mocha-Frappa-La-De-Da-Acino. Possibly with a cheesecake topping.

The butter goes in your Mocha-Frappa-La-De-Da-Acino. Possibly with a cheesecake topping

I'll have it with fries... supersized.

I'll have it with fries... supersized.

Your fries come [s]with[/s] inside your bucket o' coke.

Right. 100g of cooked red kidney beans 17.5g carbs. There are 400g in a tin, so that's 70g for a whole tin, which is a decent amount to eat if your meal is based on beans, speaking from experience.

There are 20g of carbs in a slice of Hovis Best of Both thick sliced. So four slices of that (as you might have in a sandwich based lunch) is similar amount of carbs to a whole tin of beans.

However pinto bean were only 10g carbs per 100g, so a whole tin of those is only going to be as much as two slices of bread. If you have say toast for breakfast, sandwiches for lunch and maybe a snack at some point in the day you could easily be on 6-8 slices a day, that'd be up to 160g of carbs. If you were filling up on beans you could get that from a little over two cans of beans. Which if you are eating really beany meals isn't as hard as it sounds. I've made chilli with six or eight cans in it and eat maybe an eighth of the finished product. Also if I rustle up a quick dhal for a curry I can easily eat most of a can no bother.

We talking total carbz or net carbz (minus fibre)?

No iDea... where do we stand on custard? I have powder, I have milk??

WARNING WARNING WARNING!

REALLY BAD JOKE ALERT!

No iDea... where do we stand on custard?

Anywhere you like, be a bit messy though.

THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT!

[img] [/img]

where do we stand on custard? I have powder, I have milk??

Anywhere you like, be a bit messy though

'pends how thick, surely?

Molly, 1 can equals 70g carbs. That's no different to 100g of pasta or rice, a decent size meal. So why do you still feel hungry after eating beans? the carb content is the same.

Kev

'pends how thick, surely?

I guess you could add cornflour, if we are getting scientific.

the carb content is the same.

Net carbz is lower, due to a higher fibre content in the beanz.

Starch carbs aren't the same as bean carbs and carbs in the food don't necessarily equate to carbs absorbed by the body.

You could weigh out a certain mass of coal, wood, oil, paraffin, petrol and avgas that would contain the same numerical value of calories but they certainly wouldn't burn in the same way - same with food carbs.

The numbers on the packets and in the nutritional tables are only approximately relevant to how useful that food may be to your body for energy production - that to me is why iDiet is so useful as a basis for healthy and productive eating, it doesn't rely on numbers but on real life experience.

Find what works for you, tinker with it and learn from your bodies response - it's the only way really 😀

What about making porridge with custard?

The Southern Yeti:

What about making porridge with custard?

Sicko.

*reports post*

Molly, 1 can equals 70g carbs. That's no different to 100g of pasta or rice, a decent size meal. So why do you still feel hungry after eating beans? the carb content is the same

Well.. that is an interesting question. As I understand it, there are loads of factors that lead to feeling full. Blood sugar, the amount of stuff actually in your stomach, there's some hormone or other secreted by your stomach lining in response to carbs, and there's the brain aspect too. That's not to say it's in your mind as such, but I think your brain has a lot to do with how hungry you feel. I found that if I eat very plan dull foods I feel full pretty quickly, whereas if something's yummy I eat a lot more.

I think if I eat a load of beans my blood sugar doesn't go up quickly, and my brain and my stomach lining have not tasted carbs cos it's still locked away in the fibre. Incidentally, if I do eat a huge serving of beans and feel hungry, I can eat just one biscuit or even a few raisins, and I feel full immediately.

Sicko

Microwave is going...

Microwave? You always struck me as the sort of person who cooks porridge on the hob.

/Yeah I went there.

molly, I reckon it's the brains reaction to the sugar levels, or lack of in the of case beans. As we are all sugar addicts our brains are waiting for the sugar hit before it tells us we're full. Then, because of the nature of sugar we want more despite recognising we're full. Therein lies the problem, I think. I just try not to rise to the sugar craving, if I do I'll eat a couple of satsumas or something, that works for me.

of to Zzzzss now. Yoga tomorrow.

Kev

I tend to agree, Kev. A lot of this is psychological, a little like I imagine kicking fags to be.

Sometimes if I just think of cakes I am suddenly hungry whereas I wasn't before.. oh wait.. this is a well known effect 🙂

So today's topic is training, lactate threshold training to be precise.

Is there a cheap / easy way to determine what one's threshold is?

I'd also like to know how people have got on with determining their max HR's.

Diet is off topic today... unless it can quickly help to improve one of the above.

Run 3-4 times 800m flat out, measure your highest reading. Or same thing up hill. You have to be honest with yourself and ask if I was being chased by a Tiger could I go faster! (Sure you could but you know what I mean)

Any x-your age etc is rubbish imo, I have seen some widely differing measurements.

Agree on the age thing, unless I'm still less than 21.

Do max HR's differ between sports? Matt Fiztgerald reckons they do.. but IMO max is Max?

Uphill sprint at the end of a bike race.

You think you're going as hard as you can when the sprint starts, then you try to sprint as hard as you can to the line. Death with extra death on top.

Having said that, maybe you can't reach your max HR after 2+ hours of racing anyway. so perhaps the 3x800m is the best option

They differ between sports as different movements use less or more muscle mass - swimming max HR is lower much than running max HR.

Re' lactate threshold, it varies day to day - as you saw yesterday :-/

Your threshold is just that, go on feel. What intensity can you sustain on a given session...

They differ between sports as different movements use less or more muscle mass - swimming max HR is lower much than running max HR.

I understand that, but if someone is calculating HR zones for running and cycling say, should they calc them differently.

There seems to be so much written about zone training which I've always eschewed in favour of 'feel'.

stick with 'feel'

HR is slow to respond and affected by lots of variables

I'm looking forward to doing a nice long ride that 'feels' easy. Think I'm going to cruise the next sportive.

Not sure how relevant this is.

But I finally managed to get out on the road bike yesterday.
I cycled north west out of Coventry.
Very windy, very hilly.
I ran for 2.5 hrs on empty / stored reserves.
Ran out of water in number one bottle and then hit the 50/50 water and juice I had in number 2 bottle.
I'd never usd the 50/50 mix before.

I certainly slowed after 2.5 hrs.
The 50/50 may have helped as after 2.5 hrs, I could keep going, but could only manage short bursts of [i]go[/i].
Does this describe me hitting my [i]lactic threshold[/i] ?.

Sounds like you ran out of stored fuel and were knackered.

[i]Sounds like you ran out of stored fuel and were knackered.[/i]

Well, while asking on here, I've had a quick google for lactic threshold.

Seems, based on my ride yesterday, that yes, I may have depleted most of the glycogen in the muscles I was using.
But it also seems that as a function of using that stored energy, that there must have been lactic acid present I the muscle ?.

Also, when I reached this point, a feeling I became aware of.
That I couldn't go as hard, anymore, but for short bursts.
Then the 50/50 may have assisted ?.

They differ between sports as different movements use less or more muscle mass - swimming max HR is lower much than running max HR.

I've notice my max sustainable HR whilst running over 10k has dropped by about 10 beats over the last couple of years (though the speed hasn't). Is this just because the muscles have become a bit more efficient and aren't stressing the cardio-vascular system so much, or have I just become lazy and I should still be running at that same HR?

lactate is used as fuel by muscle, most notably heart muscle. it's not the bad guy

Ian.

I would have thought that as a function of the natrual aging process.
That we are all destined to have lower maximals as we get older.
Until it becomes... Zero 😯

[i]lactate is used as fuel by muscle, most notably heart muscle. it's not the bad guy [/i]

So, after my 2.5 hrs and becoming distinctly aware of not being as [i]strong[/i] on the bike as I may have been an hour earlier.
(started to lose my climb)
Is this related to the build up / presence of L/A ?.

Yes, I have caught that the acid can be used, even though its a by-product of the primary fueling cycle ????

The trouble with riding on feel, is that I end up going 85% all the time, and my form plateau's, recovery rides are as important as the hard rides....I'm beginning to think that 75% of my riding should be below 75% effort...

So how do you calculate 75%?

How did you calc your max?

I would have thought that as a function of the natrual aging process.

[i]How did you calc your max?[/i]

I have an, admitedly, uncalibrated HRM.
I've observed HRs up into the mid 180s, which, ime, rubbishes the age related calculation.

I'd be a bit surpized that anyone would rely on a basic calc of 220 - age, etc.
Especially as Molgrips would point out how differrent we all are.
But also for what iDave posted about different exercises generating different MHRs.

However, I've also read iDave mention that HR isn't that crucial a metric to observe and record.

I was thinking that I use my HRM to learn what differrent HRs feel like.
Then I could reduce my useage of the HRM and go more by feel.

I do the feel thing a bit now.
If I use a bike in the gym.
The HRM on those is very dodgey, so Ignore it and try to stick to how I feel.
With my aim to be sub 70 percent MHR for the duration, with occassional [i]sprints[/i].

[i]It'll reach zero at 82[/i]

Probably not a linear thing.

But I hope you far exceed 82.
😀

TSY - I have used HR for many years as a training tool and race pacer. In tri's I merely take normal max HR for running and -10bpm for the bike and another -10bp for swimming. this has worked for me.

I have had two max tests albeit taken slightly differently and they came with different ideas of zone differences due to the approach. One works better than the other, so that's the one I use.

At first the weaknesses in feel alone (both in under and over estimating) are very apparent. However, for me at least, the HRM and feel quickly come closer to the extent I now can judge my HR to win plus/minus 2-3 bpm especially at the threshold moments.

funnily enough the sport that I find most difficult to judge by feel alone is biking. Too easy to drift along (on a road bike) and so my HRM is particularly valuable then.

never understand the idea that HR is too variable. To me that is a strength and important to know when this happens so that you can adjust accordingly. If you are under the weather you can pick this up very quickly with your RHR and how you HR reacts when training etc. Speed or power alone won't show that.

Thanks Teamhurtmore.

So what max HR test did you find the most useful?

I've been wearing a HR monitor for the last few months when training and still feel like I'm crusining into the 160's. Have seen it as high as 201.

One thing I've noticed is that the longer the duration of the exercise the lower it gets without my pace dropping significantly.

[i]One thing I've noticed is that the longer the duration of the exercise the lower it gets without my pace dropping significantly.[/i]

Then I guess all that time training must be paying off.

Yesterday, after 2.5hrs, I had a lot more trouble staying with the front and if I did needed to close a gap, my HR would rise significantly.
So for me, the longer I was cycling, the higher my HR went.
I don't think I'll ever be as fit a TSY.

How old you ?, TSY.
I'll be 43 in June

33 in June 🙂

Solo, I really would like your advice on a quintissential Paleo text or website.

So how do you calculate 75%?

How did you calc your max?

So. After reading THM's post.

I'm now just wondering what the overall emphasis on using an HRM is or should be.

I suppose it may depend on what you seek to achieve.

I'm now wondering if MHR is influenced by the amount of lactate coming to the heart.

[i]Solo, I really would like your advice on a quintissential Paleo text or website.[/i]

I thought we weren't allowed to mention the 'D' word today.
Especially after I have now read last night's thread....
Ding, Dong !.

Anyway, I think you know which Paleo text I sometimes refer to.
But as we all know.
Theres a universe of info out there on the matter.

Solo - I wouldn't ask if I knew!

MDA.

Oh gosh - can of worms, but will try to be brief.

On testing - first was basic max HR test (by Rick Kiddle, a well known triathlete/coach many years ago) using a spin bike. Estimated max HR was a lot higher than standard formula. Initially used simple percentages but then switched to karvonen method ie, including resting HR and this works even better for me. Second method focused more on lactate thresholds and when my body was burning fat versus carb. I wanted help with ultra marathons and this seemed sensible - but interesting gave me an ultra pace much faster than simple HR. In practice, I found this too hard which was perhaps an indicator that fitness levels had slipped.

How do I use?

1. Training - most importantly on not overtraining. Then on ensuring that I run long runs SLOWLY and short runs FAST and avoid the common zone 3 training zone. I am sold on the idea that most people run their long runs too quickly and their short ones to slowly, so I use 70% and 85% levels as limits either way. John L Parker wrote a ridiculously simple book on this concept. Running below 70% seems far to easy to start with but v soon the fitness impact kicks in and you find yourself running much faster at lower HR (!!!). The downside is that you have to work much harder on the >85% shorter stuff. This gets tougher over time!!! I hardly ever train between 70% and 85% (unless I am being lazy on shorter stuff and cheat at 80%!!!)

2. Races - again I have found Parker's rules of thumb WORK FOR ME (but this may not be for everyone) ie I run 5k at between 85-95% of WHR (Karvonen), 10k 80-90%, Half mara 75%-85%, Mara 70-80% and ultras 65-75. Set my watch to beep at either end of ranges.

Again this is VERY PERSONAL but works for me. I have raced much better when using HR to pace myself especially over 10k and in triathlon (HIM bike legs in particular when its easy to get board and drift). The only time this didn't work was very first London mara when HR was high from the start and I had to run slower than planned. Pi$$ed me off, but found out three days later that I had a virus so HRM had saved me on the day as I was comfortable albeit 10m down on target time.

For Karvonen:

Take Max HR minus Resting HR (RHR), then do percentages, then add back RHR. For me this means 70% of max HR is actually 78% when calculated using Karvonen (if this makes sense)

[i]The Southern Yeti - Member
Solo - I wouldn't ask if I knew!

Posted 3 minutes ago # Report-PostJamie - Member
MDA.
[/i]

MDA is useful, if you can handle the style that blog is written in.

There appears to be a large and randomly spread selection of people who have decided to introduce a paleo-esque change in their diet and have achieved results they appear to be happy with.

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Given your present rate of work, TSY.
I'd not say that a Paleo diet will offer you sufficient energy to exercise the three times a day, that you do.

For lesser types, mere mortals such as myself.
a Paleo themed perspective on my diet seems to be Ok.
But I remain loyal to the iDave diet principles also.

How did we get onto this again ?.
😐

TSY - you need to check whether your 201 was an actual reading or merely a blip. When my batteries tend to run down, I get more spurious readings especially at the start. But if you did hit 201 at a max, then forget formulae, this is your max!! Too many people get hung up on 220-age etc when these are guidelines AT BEST. My max is 18bpm higher than formula!

Dont forget, that it can be very easy to get obsessive about HR!!! I also hide mine for a few days every now and again and just run and ride for fun and for feel.

The other funny thing to try is cadence when running. I have long, lopey stride which is actually not very efficient. Obviously use cadence monitor on road bike but tried it with runs last year. First run took 12 minutes off 21/2 hour run merely by having shorter, faster cadence!!! Ridiculous!!

Of course, the simplest method for feel on long runs is the talk test - can you talk normally while running? If so, you are probably in Z2 and at good pace for long runs. I am surprised at how close this point is (at the upper end) to the precise level that a HRM would indicate at 70%. This suggest to me that RK did a good job at measuring my max HR

Thanks Teamhurtmore. I regularly hit 187-88 and therefore don't think it's a true max. The 201 was during a hard session, so I think it could be a max, maybe a beat or two higher?

My HRM was freaking out before I did a software update... 288bpm and rising!

Solo - I just want to read about it. There is no alterior motive, I don't wish to discredit it or talk it down, just want to see if there are bits of it I can adopt for myself.

288 would be worrying TSY!!!

Sounds like yours is >200 then.

FWIW - I will feel shot (hopefully) at the end of a 10k XC run race. Average HR will be somewhere around 172 and my race zones 165-179. These compare with my max of 193. So your comments on regularly hitting 188 with max of 200 do not seem unusual to me.

THM - I wasn't even exercising and it said 230+ 😆

Just created a quick Karvonen spreadsheet and I reckon it works pretty well against my sense of 'feel' as at 70% I'm at roughly the avg rate that I rode at for 5 hours yesterday.

Good idea to keep an eye on your RHR - especially signs of over-trainging/illness etc. Very easy to make adjustments via spreadsheet.

Just created a quick Karvonen spreadsheet and I reckon it works pretty well against my sense of 'feel' as at 70% I'm at roughly the avg rate that I rode at for 5 hours yesterday.

I was tired, no doubt about it, but I reckon that it's more to do with fuelling than how hard my heart was working.

I almost did mow the lawn last night when I got in, but I almost mow it every night and then think... balls to it.

That was a great post on the the last page teamhurtmore, just stuck my avg HR for last weekend's 10K worked out pretty much bang on 90%.
I suspect though on gentle runs I'm still higher than the 70% figure. If I remember I'll stick a HR on this evening and check.

but I reckon that it's more to do with fuelling than how hard my heart was working.

I think I should've had another bar on the way round and then eaten more, more quickly post ride.

Only had a banana and a peanut butter sandwich, then drove the 2 hours home. Emergency chocolate & coffee break at a garage as I was falling asleep.

You live and you learn though... getting up at 5:15 this morning for a swim wasn't much fun!

[i]You live and you learn though... getting up at 5:15 this morning for a swim wasn't much fun! [/i]

Indeed, indeed.

So, that was lunch in a particularly nice pub, which is pretending to be a restaurant.
And a good job they do of it too.

TSY.
Just what does a week in exercise addiction look like ?.

Would you mind outlining here what a typical week is ?.

I think I'm going to become more active and I'd like an idea of just how far off mental I am / could be.
😉

How active are you planning on being? I'll let you know the diagnosis...

[i]How active are you planning on being?[/i]

Not sure I can say without a scale to measure against.
Hence.. Who better than to set the standard.
Just list Monday to Friday if you wish.

[i]There is nothing mental with filling your free time with things that you enjoy and that are good for you! [/i]

You just carry on as you are.
The day you stop posting is when I'll start to really worry about you.

Ooh! It's National Bread Week.

[img] [/img]

On the subject of HR training best thing ive ever done was a V02 max test: did one for the bike and one for running, the running max was higher than the bike.
The most interesting thing; having always done my own type of training for 30 years my calculated training zones were not much different to my own type of training.
Most noticeably from the vo2max I have found that my turbo training sessions are now much more focused (and painfull) and i plan more recovery sessions in after a hard ride/run.
The outcome of going more scientific; i think i am training less (i have a young family) but still getting excellent results and enjoying the training.

Solo - there really is no typical week but on average I reckon...

4-5 hrs in the pool.
2-5 hrs on the bike
1 hrs dedicated running (normally I do a run after bike or with weights)
1.5-3 hrs of yoga
2+ hrs of weights
spin class
Tabata session on the rower.
30 mins of rolling about on the foam roller every night.

Then more at the weekend.

So....for a HRM newbie. I want to be able to sustain a healthy pace for 5-7hrs over hilly terrain on sportives, mtb events. Did HONC yesterday and red-lined early on, really felt it later. As a very broad guide what % of Max HR would you guys look to stay at when you are

- spinning along on the flat
- climbing (long climbs)

[i]Solo - there really is no typical week but on average I reckon...

4-5 hrs in the pool.
2-5 hrs on the bike
1 hrs dedicated running (normally I do a run after bike or with weights)
1.5-3 hrs of yoga
2+ hrs of weights
spin class
Tabata session on the rower.
30 mins of rolling about on the foam roller every night
[/i]

Oh dear.
Just as I expected.
Thats one heck of a mountain to climb.
For me to get even close.
🙁

Sunday - ( yesterday ) 3.5 hrs road bike - knackered.
Monday - ( Today )... Err, nothing planned. 😳
Tuesday - Gym, 30 - 60 mins bike followed by weights, 3 sets for, two muscle groups plus maybe some dead lifts.
Wednesday - Nothing planned ( even more panic and guilt )
Thursday - gym again, same as Tuesday, but weights for differing muscle groups, plus maybe some dead lifts.
Friday - might be gym again.
Saturday - nothing planned.

Go for a little run tonight then Solo. Just a 5k?

I'm looking forward to lighter nights and the fact that my mrs has started a shift pattern at work that should allow me a bit more training time and a structured fortnightly cycle to it.

Rest is under-rated imo 😀

mcboo - I guess you can have two strategies - different HR's for the flat and the hills or keep the same throughout but vary the intensity. For 5-7 hours on the bike I would probably go for marathon ranges which for me is 70-80% of WHR (Karvonen) as a RoThumb.

I am v new to mtb endurance races and events so still trying to devise correct strategy. But for ultra running events eg Lakeland 100, I try to keep as constant as possible and accept that this means walking up the steep stuff. On a recent mtb event (much shorter only 2 and a bit hours) I did decide to fast walk one hill carrying my bike merely to reduce the HR and rest my legs. Seemed to work as I doubt i would have ridden any faster but would have been more knackered in the saddle.

I like you Ian.
You can rest different body parts whilst exercising the others... as long as your sensible.

Every so often my heart and lungs tell me to have a day off, so I do.

[i]Go for a little run tonight then Solo. Just a 5k?[/i]

Sorry TSY. I know / think you mean well.
But I do not run, not now, not ever.
I'll see if I can plot a new route into the garmin and get a ride in tonight.
But its tough going when I won't even get home until 7-8pm and need to be a bed by 10pm for my 5am rise.
Theres just not enough time.
🙁

[i]I'm looking forward to lighter nights[/i]
This is what has got me thinking.
But reality is, I'd have to choose between eating and moving.
Don't have time for both after work.
As you can imagine.
Dinner normally wins.

Solo - can you take your bike to work and go for a spin at lunch?

Running is so simple, it's horrid but there's so little faff.

Oh and loved this from Jamie's flyer -

Did You know that a medium slice of bread contains just 94 calories

[b]Just!?![/b]
That's half a pint of beer!
Or 10 pints of bitter per a loaf.
Beer or Bread, Bread? Beer? Hmm. this is getting complicated.

Interesting, my comments on training when on the paleo diet seem to have been taken on board.

Having raced triathlon for twenty years there are some things in your training programme and experiences I could make constructive comment on, Yeti. However, that would no doubt lead to disagreement and me being called "spiteful" by iDave and a "tit", "pillock" and "prick" by Molgrips. If ever we meet in real life I look forward to discussing such things.

#logs out#