[Closed] Training and diet talk...

[url=

[/url]

😐

Go on Jamie... tell me about your running training. Do you do drills? How many miles do you do a week? How many rest days do you take?

[img] [/img]

Don't make me log on to Twitter now!

you guys back together now? i feel bad that your invite says +1 instead of + mrsyeti!

[img] [/img]

Well the last time I challenged iDave's banned list Molgrips called me a "pr" and a "Pi****" and you yourself rubbished most everything I said, Yeti, and all that despite the fact myself and others backed up what we said with links and quotes and all you could come up with was "Dave says". I'm still smiling at the low-carb, high-fat breakfast Dave ate before a cyclosportive, edit: and not eating for an hour and a half into the event.

Go read/bump the last thread you slagged detractors off on, or is it an embarrassment?

[img] [/img]

Yeah, she refused to move out... oh and she's pretty awesome.

Sponsor her... http://www.justgiving.com/Claireaklong

Edukator - ya daft brush... go and read the thread yourself. My diet is not dissimilar to your own. I count myself as lucky that I can eat loads of bread and chocolate and see my abs. I also eat a bucket load of fruit every day... my diet is close to that prescribed in 'Racing Weight' if you've read that?

I was reading some stuff on different top athletes diets last night and some of them eat utter rubbish, some of them eat exactly as iDiet, others like you and I... they're highly trained athletes who can burn calories at a greater rate than the average Joe.

The only thing I'd say is that the iDiet was put forward to help tubbies become lean.

I was also reading about fat burning zones and what utter rubbish that potentially is...

I was also reading about fat burning zones and what utter rubbish that potentially is

"I'm still smiling at the low-carb, high-fat breakfast Dave ate before a cyclosportive, edit: and not eating for an hour and a half into the event."

I'm doing a longer sportive this weekend. I'll have the same breakfast, same eating on the bike. Perhaps you could predict what will happen to me? Oh how you'll laugh.

Ever heard of Dunning-Kruger?

[img] [/img]

lazybike - utter rubbish might be a bit strong.

What I read was suggesting that it's more important to burn total calories than trying to burn some fat, or some carbs.

In summary it said that what you eat after exercise will go mostly towards replenishing whatever fuel source you used in your body.

Training talk...

I'm into tapering for the london marathon but it's doing my head in....

Run/don't run/ run... but slowly/run ... but only for a little while....

Grrrr

I'm ready, and wish the marathon was tomorrow

Is that on Sunday?

What sort of pace you aiming for? Got any training tips?

sounds logical, at what point does the body switch from burning fat to carbs? also when does glycogen get used and how is it replaced. Exscuse my ignorance on this stuff...

The flame-idge potential, is stong with this one....

[i]What I read was suggesting that it's more important to burn total calories than trying to burn some fat, or some carbs.[/i]

Hhhmmm. I suppose thats all well and good.

But I think that learning what the body does and how it operates, is the place to start.

Drum roll for the men in white coats....

Drum roll for the men in white coats....

*insert obvious joke here*

[i]*insert obvious joke here*[/i]

What ?, for the scientists in the labs who observe and measure how the human body operates ?.

sounds logical, at what point does the body switch from burning fat to carbs? also when does glycogen get used and how is it replaced. Exscuse my ignorance on this stuff...

I think it's closely related to % of VO2 max, which is translated to % of max HR for us mortals. Essentially though is different for each of us.

Re the glycogen thing... I don't know but in simplistic terms I believe the body does its best to convert whatever you put into it, into whatever it needs / is most depleted.

The thing I read alluded to the idea that fitter athletes and exercise in itself prompted the body to be better at doing this,

who observe and measure how the human body operates ?.

Doesn't it vary between individuals though Solo?

*insert obvious joke here*

What ?, for the scientists in the labs who observe and measure how the human body operates ?.

I think one about men in white coats approaching you with a straight jacket at the ready would be funnier while still being obvious 🙂

"Is that on Sunday?
What sort of pace you aiming for? Got any training tips?”

Next Sunday (22nd)

Pacing ... about 7:4O/mile... my goal was sub 3 1/2 ... from training runs and a half mara race, I did the other week, I'm well on target for that (touch wood)... it's now just how hard I wanna push... London's so much fun I just wanna take it in, rather than beast myself.

Training tip.... find an early long race. I did a 15 mile xc at the end of january... that really jump started the training plan, got my mileage up early.

Oh and something I don't think you'll like..... Long and slow, long and slow, long and slow... It's worked for me that's all I can say.

Cheers Rosey. Good Luck.

I was coming to the conclusion that I need to go long and slow with my running for a while 🙁

Do you run with a fuel belt for your training runs?

If you're eating right, you shouldn't really need fuel upto 15 miles. Afterwards, yes, but during...never did it personally.

Thanks TSY, I'll google glycogen see what I can find..

Jamie I get thristy... long and slow 15 miles... no drink!

[i]Doesn't it vary between individuals though Solo? [/i]

To what extent a process occurs in your body, may fluctuate on an individual basis, true.
But that the process even occurs at all, is what I was referring to.

Which is where:

[i]I think one about men in white coats approaching you with a straight jacket at the ready would be funnier while still being obvious[/i]

I worded that comment for just that effect.
Could mean more that one thing....

Jamie I get thristy... long and slow 15 miles... no drink!

Never really had that issue. It's different for everyone though. I know people who need to take a bottle on 10k runs.

But that the process even occurs at all, is what I was referring to.

Do I care if I'm getting leaner and fitter? No.

If you've already got the answers though... why not share them?

[i]If you're eating right, you shouldn't really need fuel upto 15 miles. Afterwards, yes[/i]

Careful.

You'll make Edu-kato break out into uncontrollable laughter, again.
😉

[i]Do I care if I'm getting leaner and fitter? No.

If you've already got the answers though... why not share them?
[/i]

What ?, in all that is swivel eyed and damp.
Did that mean ?.

Ever heard of Dunning-Kruger?

Yes, iDave: alluding to it is a form of insult dished out on the internet by self-proclaimed experts shown to be less than expert by rank amateurs.

You seem to read widely around the topic Solo... and seem to like to substantiate your view with scientific opinion.

I only half-heartedly care... so if you've already read stuff about this, why not educate us?

Fueling, really not my strong point.
I've suffered badly from stitches last year. In so far that I believe it’s my limiting factor… legs strong, lungs good but doubled up with stabbing pains.
So I pretty much shied away from “during training” nutrition, to the point of not drinking at all during 3hr training runs … which is a bit silly.
So I started trying HIGH5 iso gels. They have worked for me and given me the confidence to drink a little water as well. Got three gels in a fuel belt for long runs 18mile+(using only two, and the third as a reserve) with one of those small bottles the hand whole in them.

[i]I only half-heartedly care... so if you've already read stuff about this, why not educate us? [/i]

I'd say you're being generous, furthermore, I'll leave it to Kato to Edukate you.

Even furthermore, I'm really at a loss as to what you mean, so I'm going back to re-read this thread, so far....

❓

Good luck. Ro5ey hope it goes ok!

Longest run I've done this year was 15 miles and I tool 2 gels one at 5 and then at 10 . Did 1 hour 56 which I was dead chuffed with. Didn't drink, I find it hard to drink and run

I get bored of all the diet and science stuff. I've tried to read loads of articles but as soon as they start with the scientific terms I just switch off.

I know what you mean emsz - I just want it to say 'do this to be Awesome!!!'.

for anyone who may be interested here's the glycogen highlights...

stored primarily in the liver and muscle tissue

Glycogen stores significantly more limited than adipose tissue

# Increased storage can double duration of exhaustive work
# Low or depleted glycogen stores

* limits exercise intensity
* decreases time to exhaustion
* increases rating of perceived exhaustion during physical activity (Nieman 1987)

# The average person stores enough glycogen to last them 12 to 14 hours or over 2 hours with sustained moderate intensity.

* Mean ingested daily is 400 grams
* To maintain an adequate supply a minimum of 100 grams of carbohydrates should be ingested daily

Approximately 50% more glycogen can be stored if carbohydrates are consumed immediately following strenuous exercise as opposed to waiting 2 hours after exercise

* Suggested amount
o 100 g of carbohydrates (400 Kcal) for the average 175 lb man (Friedman 1991).
o 10 – 20% of total daily caloric intake of carbohydrates and quality proteins in approximately a 4:1 ratio

Kato is a geologist and a police officer. I'm a geologist and teacher but don't do either at the moment. We're two differnt posters, Solo, and Kato hasn't posted on this thread.

On the fat burning zone: conventional wisdom says you burn fat during prolonged exercise so exercising at a level that allows you to maintain an activity for several hours wil result in you burning fat. You can increase the fat you burn by eating carbs during the exercise thus prolonging the time you can exercise at a reasonable intensity for.

In practical terms if you exercise for an hour at a high intensity you won't burn much fat. However, if you exercise for six hours eating enough carbs to maintain a reasonable intensity you will burn fat, glycongen and the food you're eating. Fueling up with carbs in the half hour that follows such an long effort will serve mainly to replace glycogen stocks; these after-effort carbs won't make you fat.

Think I'll go back to counting calories as it worked last time and I like having the numbers to focus on. That and going back to sinply doing hours in the gym allong with long rides, no more of the HIIT/minimum effective dose style workouts, if I've got an hour for a bike ride it'll be at the max pace I can sustain for an hour, anything longer will be at whatever pace feels comfortable. Worked for me last time so hopefully it'll work again.

Problem is this time I've got a car, which automaticaly makes me lazy 🙁

can i just say........this idiet thing is shyte!!
it is gonna cost me a whole new wardrobe of clothes....... 8)

oh, and 4lbs off this week....... 8)

I won a race t'other weekend. This one:

http://www.endurerevents.co.uk/

I had rice for breakfast beforehand.

nice one ton.

I'm doing an iDave experiment. One day to go and i'll post the results. I started at 75.5kg and 18.9% body fat (according to my new shiny scales). Anyone want to guess what i'll be at tomorrow morning?

Emsz ... if i can keep your pace for the duration next week, I'll be happy

"I get bored of all the diet and science stuff. I've tried to read loads of articles but as soon as they start with the scientific terms I just switch off."

+1 Too much information, it starts to bore me as well... my philosophy is... stop reading and just do what you fancy !!

You'll be happy and therefore train harder or longer and when you’ve done lots of harder or longer you’ll be able to combine them and go harder for longer.

Now get off STW and get out there…. I am … I’m off to the gym for more tapering work …. Ie a nice little midday snooze in the chill out room… (out with the Thiftgreen Trotters running club tonight)

I'm more interested in what weight you'll be at in three years time, CaptJon. And what [url= http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/the-dangers-of-a-high-protein-diet/the-problems-with-protein.html ]health problems you have in thirty years time.[/url]

Diet isn't just about losing wieight it's about being healthy. I sugest that the mediteranean diet with a protein intake based around the 4-2-1 French Olymic diet I mentioned on the other thread (and slagged off by iDave) is more likely to result in long term weight stability, low heart disease and less risk of cancer.

C'mon I'm bored and nobody has mentioned i???? this week.

the only science required is to know what your body needs and when it needs it. bollox to all this clock watching shieite. For me depends on the terrain involved, how intense i may have work at certain points and when there is a chance to take it easier, how much more work there is do etc..- that's how time my refuelling.

Kev

Edukator - Member
I'm more interested in what weight you'll be at in three years time, CaptJon. And what health problems you have in thirty years time.

aww, thanks.

Diet isn't just about losing wieight it's about being healthy.

nss

I sugest that the mediteranean diet with a protein intake based around the 4-2-1 French Olymic diet I mentioned on the other thread (and slagged off by iDave) is more likely to result in long term weight stability, low heart disease and less risk of cancer.

Didn't he slag it off in terms of its use for/by elite athletes?

Edukator, can you please tell me what health risks there are from eating a diet made up from vast amounts of veg and salad, lean meat and fish?

i am just going to eat a skinless chicken breast, olives, cherry toms and a dollop of hummus for lunch, and if that is gonna cause me healt problems, i want to know why.

Didn't he slag it off in terms of its use for/by elite athletes?

Is it used by the current French Olympic Team?

[i]it is gonna cost me a whole new wardrobe of clothes....... [/i]

You love it really 😀

[i]I know what you mean emsz - I just want it to say 'do this to be Awesome!!!'. [/i]

Ah, a result of the internet age.

[i]Just show me the big red button ![/i] mentallity.

Well, I'd almost apolgize for being interested in the science.

But by learning that shit, at least I'll know what to do and what not to do.
According to science.
Today's science, that is....

And I prefer this to just blindly running around like a skinny loon, or just pretending I don't know anything.

Do people do the diet to get to a target weight, and then eat more carbs, or is it a lifetime thing....

Ton.

Good post.
Its given me ideas for lunch today, so I'm off out for mine.

I haven't trained for my trip to the shops for lunch, so I'll not promise a time for my return.

😉

lazybike - Member
Do people do the diet to get to a target weight, and then eat more carbs, or is it a lifetime thing....

it isn't a low carb diet

I prefer to think of it as being efficient Solo... why do the work if you can get someone else to do it for you?

Can you grab me a pint of milk from the shops?

The high proportion of protein advocated by iDave can lead to the problems on the link in my last post. On the last thread we were debating on iDave said 4-2-1 was rubbish for endurance athletes and quoted Mark Allen's 4-3-3 as a reference. Increasing proteins and fats in relation to carbs increases your risk.

Add a chunk of wholemeal bread to your lunch, halve the chicken portion and splash some olive oil over the lot, and you'll be well within the realms of [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_diet ]the mediterranean diet.[/url]

Edukator - as far as I know the added protein in iDave's meals comes from switching towards lentils, quinoa etc for carbs rather than grain and potato based carbs. I didn't think it was about increasing meat portions.

Is there a risk associated to the protein in pulses or is it just from meats, or certain types of meat?

[i]Add a chunk of wholemeal bread to your lunch, halve the chicken portion small and splash some olive oil over the lot, and you'll be well within the realms of the mediterranean diet. [/i]

Ha !.

Edukator, in:
[i]Read what I post and the links I post.
While I ignore what others post[/i]

Shocker !.

Actually I just followed the wikilink for the Med Diet...

It's not that dissimilar to the iDiet IMO. It adds fruit, unrefined cereals and a small amount of dairy.

The Southern Yeti - Member
Didn't he slag it off in terms of its use for/by elite athletes?
Is it used by the current French Olympic Team?

i think iDave said it was outdated.

Could you post what I've missed and ignored that's annoyed you please, Solo. I read Ton's post and answered the question.

Apologies, it was IanMunro suggesting mark Allen' 4-3-3.

This is definitely iDave

"I'm saying eat carbs all the time in generous quantities not just after intensive training sessions"

The worlds leading authorities on sport and endurance performance would say that's incorrect. You may do that, good for you. You may think that because you do it and your slim friend does it then your thoughts on how we metabolise different food types is 'right'. You'll find that the people who are performing at the highest level in endurance sport are not doing as you do.

Edukator, so the health risk will come solely from eating lean meat?

how so..

finbar:

I won a race t'other weekend. This one:

http://www.endurerevents.co.uk/

I had rice for breakfast beforehand.

Congrats Finbar....even though, if I had not been busy that weekend I would have given you a run for your money*

*not a challenge mind, just a run 😉

I think adding the main things iDave bans:

I'm against generous amounts of grains, pasta, rice, potatoes etc. Yeah. Very much so.

is quite a significant difference, Yeti, given the importance of bread and pasta (wheat in various forms) in all the countries surrounding the Med.

If there has been an evolution since the 4-2-1 French Olympic diet it has been towards more protein so when iDave says "modern" we can imply more protein and fat unless he wishes to state otherwise.

One of the reasons I myself odopted a mix of 4-2-1 and mediterranean was that the diet was developped before many doping techniques altered the metabolism of athletes. At the time athletes were found with [url= http://www.rp-online.de/sport/mehr/leichtathletik/der-fall-birgit-dressel-und-seine-folgen-1.2785423 ]a hundred or so products in their blood[/url], they're faster now so you know what I think... .

mate, what about the lean meat/health risks tho?

it isn't a low carb diet

Eating more lean meat than in the mediterranean diet is unhealthy for the reasons in my "health problems" link above, Ton. And as iDave rubbishes the French Olympic diet proportions of 4-2-1 we can safely say he is suggesting you eat proportionally more protein.

here you go, the basics:

http://williamslittleworld.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/famous-idave-diet.html

deffo a lifestyle change for me.
Dave and Solo opened my eyes to it, but a very long time reading about the primal plan has concreted my future hopefully.

Congrats Finbar....even though, if I had not been busy that weekend I would have given you a run for your money*

*not a challenge mind, just a run

Thanks! It was a good laugh, i'd recommend the next one in September if you're around. All the bramble scratches on my legs might have recovered by then as well...

any change in eating habits in order to lose weight has to be permanent otherwise as soon as one goes back to the old habits the old results will again begin to show.

Kev

edu - i think you might be conflating the idave diet (designed for 'biffers') and what idave advocates for the elite athletes he works with. there is nothing about proportions in the idave diet plan.

sorry my understanding was no carbs for 6 days, then eat what you like for a day,

Vegetables,Beans/lentils,Eggs,Seeds/nuts all have carbs in

here you go, the basics

Edukator, i would just like to add, i have not increased my meat intake at all. probably decreased it to be honest.
no more of the following,
bacon
sausage
black pudding
processed meat
pie
fast food stuff
eating loads more fish tho, mackeral, tuna , salmon, shellfish.

Me confusing things or iDave, CaptJon? Why would he rubbish 4-2-1 without the proviso it's fine for mere mortals that wish to maintain a stable healthy weight and even lose wieght (simply by reducing portion sizes or increasing activity to create a very small calorie deficit).

I've consistently talked about "endurance athletes" and any STWer wishing to eat heathily because as far as I'm concerned 4-2-1 in a mediterranean context is fine for both. He hasn't stated what diciplines his rainbow jersey athletes compete in or how what they eat differs from 4-2-1. If you don't like 4-2-1 then what is your alternative for STWers/endurance athletes, iDave?