[Closed] Training and diet talk...

I won a race t'other weekend. This one:

http://www.endurerevents.co.uk/

I had rice for breakfast beforehand.

nice one ton.

I'm doing an iDave experiment. One day to go and i'll post the results. I started at 75.5kg and 18.9% body fat (according to my new shiny scales). Anyone want to guess what i'll be at tomorrow morning?

Emsz ... if i can keep your pace for the duration next week, I'll be happy

"I get bored of all the diet and science stuff. I've tried to read loads of articles but as soon as they start with the scientific terms I just switch off."

+1 Too much information, it starts to bore me as well... my philosophy is... stop reading and just do what you fancy !!

You'll be happy and therefore train harder or longer and when you’ve done lots of harder or longer you’ll be able to combine them and go harder for longer.

Now get off STW and get out there…. I am … I’m off to the gym for more tapering work …. Ie a nice little midday snooze in the chill out room… (out with the Thiftgreen Trotters running club tonight)

I'm more interested in what weight you'll be at in three years time, CaptJon. And what [url= http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/the-dangers-of-a-high-protein-diet/the-problems-with-protein.html ]health problems you have in thirty years time.[/url]

Diet isn't just about losing wieight it's about being healthy. I sugest that the mediteranean diet with a protein intake based around the 4-2-1 French Olymic diet I mentioned on the other thread (and slagged off by iDave) is more likely to result in long term weight stability, low heart disease and less risk of cancer.

C'mon I'm bored and nobody has mentioned i???? this week.

the only science required is to know what your body needs and when it needs it. bollox to all this clock watching shieite. For me depends on the terrain involved, how intense i may have work at certain points and when there is a chance to take it easier, how much more work there is do etc..- that's how time my refuelling.

Kev

Edukator - Member
I'm more interested in what weight you'll be at in three years time, CaptJon. And what health problems you have in thirty years time.

aww, thanks.

Diet isn't just about losing wieight it's about being healthy.

nss

I sugest that the mediteranean diet with a protein intake based around the 4-2-1 French Olymic diet I mentioned on the other thread (and slagged off by iDave) is more likely to result in long term weight stability, low heart disease and less risk of cancer.

Didn't he slag it off in terms of its use for/by elite athletes?

Edukator, can you please tell me what health risks there are from eating a diet made up from vast amounts of veg and salad, lean meat and fish?

i am just going to eat a skinless chicken breast, olives, cherry toms and a dollop of hummus for lunch, and if that is gonna cause me healt problems, i want to know why.

Didn't he slag it off in terms of its use for/by elite athletes?

Is it used by the current French Olympic Team?

[i]it is gonna cost me a whole new wardrobe of clothes....... [/i]

You love it really 😀

[i]I know what you mean emsz - I just want it to say 'do this to be Awesome!!!'. [/i]

Ah, a result of the internet age.

[i]Just show me the big red button ![/i] mentallity.

Well, I'd almost apolgize for being interested in the science.

But by learning that shit, at least I'll know what to do and what not to do.
According to science.
Today's science, that is....

And I prefer this to just blindly running around like a skinny loon, or just pretending I don't know anything.

Do people do the diet to get to a target weight, and then eat more carbs, or is it a lifetime thing....

Ton.

Good post.
Its given me ideas for lunch today, so I'm off out for mine.

I haven't trained for my trip to the shops for lunch, so I'll not promise a time for my return.

😉

lazybike - Member
Do people do the diet to get to a target weight, and then eat more carbs, or is it a lifetime thing....

it isn't a low carb diet

I prefer to think of it as being efficient Solo... why do the work if you can get someone else to do it for you?

Can you grab me a pint of milk from the shops?

The high proportion of protein advocated by iDave can lead to the problems on the link in my last post. On the last thread we were debating on iDave said 4-2-1 was rubbish for endurance athletes and quoted Mark Allen's 4-3-3 as a reference. Increasing proteins and fats in relation to carbs increases your risk.

Add a chunk of wholemeal bread to your lunch, halve the chicken portion and splash some olive oil over the lot, and you'll be well within the realms of [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_diet ]the mediterranean diet.[/url]

Edukator - as far as I know the added protein in iDave's meals comes from switching towards lentils, quinoa etc for carbs rather than grain and potato based carbs. I didn't think it was about increasing meat portions.

Is there a risk associated to the protein in pulses or is it just from meats, or certain types of meat?

[i]Add a chunk of wholemeal bread to your lunch, halve the chicken portion small and splash some olive oil over the lot, and you'll be well within the realms of the mediterranean diet. [/i]

Ha !.

Edukator, in:
[i]Read what I post and the links I post.
While I ignore what others post[/i]

Shocker !.

Actually I just followed the wikilink for the Med Diet...

It's not that dissimilar to the iDiet IMO. It adds fruit, unrefined cereals and a small amount of dairy.

The Southern Yeti - Member
Didn't he slag it off in terms of its use for/by elite athletes?
Is it used by the current French Olympic Team?

i think iDave said it was outdated.

Could you post what I've missed and ignored that's annoyed you please, Solo. I read Ton's post and answered the question.

Apologies, it was IanMunro suggesting mark Allen' 4-3-3.

This is definitely iDave

"I'm saying eat carbs all the time in generous quantities not just after intensive training sessions"

The worlds leading authorities on sport and endurance performance would say that's incorrect. You may do that, good for you. You may think that because you do it and your slim friend does it then your thoughts on how we metabolise different food types is 'right'. You'll find that the people who are performing at the highest level in endurance sport are not doing as you do.

Edukator, so the health risk will come solely from eating lean meat?

how so..

finbar:

I won a race t'other weekend. This one:

http://www.endurerevents.co.uk/

I had rice for breakfast beforehand.

Congrats Finbar....even though, if I had not been busy that weekend I would have given you a run for your money*

*not a challenge mind, just a run 😉

I think adding the main things iDave bans:

I'm against generous amounts of grains, pasta, rice, potatoes etc. Yeah. Very much so.

is quite a significant difference, Yeti, given the importance of bread and pasta (wheat in various forms) in all the countries surrounding the Med.

If there has been an evolution since the 4-2-1 French Olympic diet it has been towards more protein so when iDave says "modern" we can imply more protein and fat unless he wishes to state otherwise.

One of the reasons I myself odopted a mix of 4-2-1 and mediterranean was that the diet was developped before many doping techniques altered the metabolism of athletes. At the time athletes were found with [url= http://www.rp-online.de/sport/mehr/leichtathletik/der-fall-birgit-dressel-und-seine-folgen-1.2785423 ]a hundred or so products in their blood[/url], they're faster now so you know what I think... .

mate, what about the lean meat/health risks tho?

it isn't a low carb diet

Eating more lean meat than in the mediterranean diet is unhealthy for the reasons in my "health problems" link above, Ton. And as iDave rubbishes the French Olympic diet proportions of 4-2-1 we can safely say he is suggesting you eat proportionally more protein.

here you go, the basics:

http://williamslittleworld.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/famous-idave-diet.html

deffo a lifestyle change for me.
Dave and Solo opened my eyes to it, but a very long time reading about the primal plan has concreted my future hopefully.

Congrats Finbar....even though, if I had not been busy that weekend I would have given you a run for your money*

*not a challenge mind, just a run

Thanks! It was a good laugh, i'd recommend the next one in September if you're around. All the bramble scratches on my legs might have recovered by then as well...

any change in eating habits in order to lose weight has to be permanent otherwise as soon as one goes back to the old habits the old results will again begin to show.

Kev

edu - i think you might be conflating the idave diet (designed for 'biffers') and what idave advocates for the elite athletes he works with. there is nothing about proportions in the idave diet plan.

sorry my understanding was no carbs for 6 days, then eat what you like for a day,

Vegetables,Beans/lentils,Eggs,Seeds/nuts all have carbs in

here you go, the basics

Edukator, i would just like to add, i have not increased my meat intake at all. probably decreased it to be honest.
no more of the following,
bacon
sausage
black pudding
processed meat
pie
fast food stuff
eating loads more fish tho, mackeral, tuna , salmon, shellfish.

Me confusing things or iDave, CaptJon? Why would he rubbish 4-2-1 without the proviso it's fine for mere mortals that wish to maintain a stable healthy weight and even lose wieght (simply by reducing portion sizes or increasing activity to create a very small calorie deficit).

I've consistently talked about "endurance athletes" and any STWer wishing to eat heathily because as far as I'm concerned 4-2-1 in a mediterranean context is fine for both. He hasn't stated what diciplines his rainbow jersey athletes compete in or how what they eat differs from 4-2-1. If you don't like 4-2-1 then what is your alternative for STWers/endurance athletes, iDave?

Sounds like we need iDave, Ton. Because your diet seems remarkably 4-2-1 which iDave thinks is old hat.

Also the French Olympic team don't use 4, 2, 1 and haven't done for a long time.

Still, keep reading the magazines.

By the way, one of the top ranked UCI world tour teams didn't have much pasta or muesli on show at their training camp - job opp there for you.

You do know that you can't complete an ironman fueled just by carbs don't you? And that taking carbs too close to the start will limit fat burning during?

I didn't answer his questions but will now:

I'm sure I could complete an Ironman just on carbs but it was easier and faster with mainly carbs and a bit of protein and fat. I've completed four with a best of 59th at Embrun which was the hardest at the time in terms of climbing. I thoroughly enjoyed a ham sandwich on the way down the Isoard.

I had a big bowl of müesli an hour before the start as I thought it better to follow my normal eating habits as closely as possible rather than eat at 3:00. I consider myself a lousy swimmer but swam in 1:02 so if my breakfast hampered my fat burning on the swim it didn't show in the time or the way I felt.

edit, and I didn't get the 4-2-1 Frech Olympic diet from a magazine, I have an original copy given to me by the nutritionist at Lindt.

've consistently talked about "endurance athletes" and any STWer wishing to eat heathily because as far as I'm concerned 4-2-1 in a mediterranean context is fine for both.

I thought the mediterranean diet has ~30% calories for fat, which is twice the fat of a 4-2-1 diet?

[img] [/img]

😉

I feel hnoured, Phil. That's the first time anyone has gone to the trouble of doing me a personalised pic on the Net. 8)

you should be honored, the wily wonker meme has been bugging me for a while now because its never used in the context of a chocolate factory.

maybe people haven't done personalised pics for you because you're quite trigger happy in posting topless photos of yourself 😛 dont worry, yeti went through that stage, as did molly. if the time-tested pattern holds true in 4 months you'll be telling people all about the iDiet and castigating them for eating bread, either that or eating cheesecake and challenging women to races 😀

There are lots of mediterranean diets, Ian. Most don't fix the proportions of carbs, proteins and fats but you are right to say they're often higher than 15%. If you want a reference then the université de Lyon did a study on high risk heart patients in the mid nineties that got a lot of TV coverage in France (l'Etude de Lyon).

Plenty of fruit, olive oil, cereals and wine (in moderation) are common factors to the various mediterrranean diets. Fish is soemtimes but not always a significant source of protein, snails with miraculous properties are sometimes included.

Edukator - you confuse the term fuel with nutrition. There are energy stores in the body, some glycogen, some fat. You won't be finishing an Ironman without fat being burned as fuel whether you choose to eat fat or not during it. Your impressive ironman performances (and I mean that) will have required significant contribution of fat to the fuel used.

Also there seems to be some confusion about fuel in that somehow we either burn fat or we burn glucose. We do both most of the time. Training in certain nutritional states allow us to manipulate this to our advantage depending on the duration of the event we're training for.

My reference to dunning-kruger relates to your inability to consider that you may be incorrect. I've changed my view on best practice in sports nutrition several times in the 24 years that it's been my job.

A few other points, the iDave diet isn't low carb and high fat. It's low GI carb. My sportive breakfast wasn't high fat and low carb either. It was an omelet with a tin of broad beans in it and a few slices of chorizo. It was certainly low GI, but now low carb.

My main issue with your stance is that I believe that 'generous' quantities of refined carbs are detrimental to health and performance. I'm not against high GI carbs before, during and after 'some' types of training and events. But certainly against them as part of our daily diet.

Finally there is recent evidence that a high GI breakfast inhibits brain function.....

yeti went through that stage

I'm still waiting for someone to ask me to post another...

lazybike - Member
Thanks for that, what sort of stuff are you eating on your days off, is it straight down the chip shop! or just some toast with breakfast, pasta with lunch etc

pizza is my weakness, so i had that yesterday.

I have never used the term "refined carbs". "Generous" quanties of carbs yes: 4-2-1. Where I've refered to bread type speciafically it's been "whole grain" - low GI (though I don't only eat whole grain). Spaghetti is low GI - on a par with many vegetables. Müesli is a mix of grains, nuts and dried fruit, I probably add enough banana to tip it into medium GI but certainly not high GI.

My breakfast is not high Gi by any objective measure, it just includes bread and müesli. Every other day it also includes cheese/Black Forest cured ham/olive oil.

So far today:

Breakfast: tea, wholemeal bread dunked in olive oil, goat's cheese, a banana, cod liver oil.

Mid morning: coffee, 70% chocolate.

Lunch: spaghetti, a slice of ham, a glass of orange juice.

It's nice out, I'm off for a run.