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I am not attempting to defend the indefensible and peculiar pricing structure on UK trains. I merely put the other side of the equation that many folk who prefer to drive cars forget.
1) cars are more expensive than you often think
2) trains are easier and more convenient and cheaper than you often think
The comparison is more favourable towards trains than it appears on first glance.
Druidhs point about travel to and from the train stations is perfectly valid and can make a huge difference to how the equation balances out.
Well, for a 45-50 mile commute I wouldn't be using train or car. Mid sized motorcycle or big scooter kicks both into touch......
🙂
Well I have been commuting for almost one year now. And I have enough finger on my hand to count the days where the train as been on time on both ends of the journey.
Plus I agree with the sick/drunk/stinky/noisy people comment. I term of time there is no much difference between my journey in car or bike + train (car a little faster).
Train is indeed mucho cheaper, but ti's such a pain when you want to have a life outside work. If I had to go to a meeting or an interview, i would not take the train in any cases. You have to put up with delays, crowd, useless and rithless staff, strikes (even though they are most of the time justified).
Even I have barely space for my legs.
or big scoote
BURRNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN HIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM SHOVE AND HELMET THROUGH HIS ASSSSSSSSSS AND PUSH IT UNTIL HIS THROAT AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Nowt wrong with a scooter Juan - you know you want one - go nicely with your pink gloves
*everyone* hates scooters TJ, it's the law!
TJ I don't use mtb bike on the motorcycle no point really. PLus there is already something going well with them, it's the 696... I black or liliac :D.
I agree with the OP and a few others, I'd never use the train unless my company paid for it. 250 quid to get to London and back? I could hire a car for the day for 30 quid and stick another 30 quid of diesel in it. I'm astounded people who aren't getting the tickets provided are using the train at all.
How close do you live to London Samuri?
Could do Glasgow - London cheaper by car too, but it would take a LOT longer than the 4 1/2 hours it does on the train.
Sod the train too though - I'd fly as it'd be much cheaper at peak time fares.
I have just checked the trainline for ticket prices. Glasgow / London tomorrow returning wed. Both departure 7.30ish. £90 return.
That would be 800 miles driving - thats similar to the petrol cost ( thus well under the total cost of driving),quicker, and less stressful. Infact if you have a laptop you could get most of a days work done in the 9 hrs on the train compared to 12+ hrs spent driving which is wasted time.
Jeezo there is some bollox talked on here ( I should know! )
Or you could just fly for way less time and money. Plus you have to factor the cost of a laptop as well.
Flying city centre to city centre is not much quicker if any. Flight time an hour+, 40 mins + check in, travel from the city centre to the airport and hour +. total centre to centre time is not much less.
Cost - travel from the city to the airport needs to be added to the airfares as well
40 mins + check in,
Nope that is flying time + 40 minutes full stop.
Last time I travel in the UK was from soton to york. We flew to leeds and took the bus to york.
Cost us half the price of the train and half the time.
Teej - Once again you are being very selective with your sources in order to find a solution that best suits your argument.
BTW, out of interest why do you consider being in your own car to be 'equivalent' to only standard class of travel?
In my car I get to listen to whatever music I want rather than the tinny garbage spewing forth from someone else's headphones, I can stop wherever I like to get a drink rather than buy one from the over-priced buffet car and I don't often find myself crammed into my car alongside some diseased reprobate spreading whatever nasties they have in my direction.
Yes it might take a while longer on long distance journeys but it gets me from door to door rather than 'possibly closed due to engineering works, bus replacement service provided' station to 'possibly closed due to industrial action, please wait for announcements' station.
Ooo look, I've picked out bad parts of train travel to suit my view. Could we more alike than I first thought Teej?
When I did the C2C from Workington to Sunderland, two train tickets cost £15 - just depends on the service and when you're travelling...
Is it just me, or aren't you supposed to [i]ride[/i] the C2C?
;o)
Just checked my options for a trip to see a customer in Glasgow later this week. To use the train I need to get a bus into town, but fortunately I live close to the bus-stop plus the customer is relatively close to the train station (5-10 minutes walk) at the other end.
Cost wise, including the bus and train fare, it's cheaper to use the train - a single ticket is £11.50 (Haymarket to Queens Street, 07:48 train) which is about the same as the total cost of taking my car - 45 miles at £0.25 per mile (which is what I've calculated the my 2nd hand, 4 year old Jazz costs to run - including the high insurance costs from having my daughter on the policy and even costing all my RAC cover to it even though it covers all our vehicles). With public transport I'm £1 or so for the bus, but parking would be about £4 where I'm going - so in overall terms public transport is cheaper.
Two problems with this however:
1) My company pays me £0.40 per mile driven - so I'll actually make a profit it I take my car.
2) Even being conservative and saying it'll take me an hour to drive (it varies between 45 minutes and an hour) that's still a whole hour cheaper each way compared to taking public transport. So 2-hours less traveling every day - that's enough time for me to fit a decent mountain bike ride each day.
If I re-do the calculations for a private trip it's even more in favour of taking the car as I'd be going with the family so that'd be 4 of us in the car.
£5.20 for a 8 min off-peak journey here(...not that I've ever taken it. Only takes 20 mins to ride)
45 minutes from Haymarket to Queens Street by car, along the M8, during the rush hour? Really?
45 minutes from Haymarket to Queens Street by car, along the M8, during the rush hour? Really?
I don't live at Haymarket (I'm on the western outskirts of Edinburgh) and the customer isn't at Queen's Street (it's close to the motorway). At rush hour the shortest time it's taken me by car, door to door, is 45 minutes and the longerst just under an hour.
If I take the motorbike it takes less time and it doesn't really matter what the traffic is like.
Fair enough then steve.
cars are more expensive than you often think
On the contrary, cars can be much cheaper than you seem to think is possible - have you actually been to that RAC site you're so fond of quoting and seeing the cost breakdown (and how most of their costs are things you don't actually have to pay)?
Many of those you did not say you were including and I think if you actually add up the costs it would be moer than you think.
Well I specifically mentioned fuel, tyres and servicing - they're the only ones which are variable costs (what I thought we were interested in) I didn't think it was necessary to itemise the fixed costs, and just did it in my head. I have a pretty good idea of my car related expenditure - is your real name Derren if you think you have a better idea how much my car costs to run than I do?
No repairs needed at MOT time? No other repairs in the year?
Sorry - was including those in "servicing" or "MOT" as appropriate. Otherwise my servicing costs would be less than 0.5p a mile, and "MOT" wouldn't really be worth mentioning.
My fixed costs on my car are:
Tax - 115
MOT - 40
Insurance - 220
Consumables (filters, oil, odd bits of wear and tear etc). - 50, plus say maybe 75 for tyres per year.
That's around 500 quid. I pay that annually regardless, as I need the car to get to places that have no public transport links and while carrying large items distances of 4-700 miles regularly for personal reasons. I kitesurf at remote beaches, I mountainbike miles from any public transport. So no matter what I need to have that expense.
Once that expense is done and assumed, any other use of the car is on a per-use basis. If I visit my folks once a month and did nothing else with it it'd cost me approximately £30 in fuel per month, plus a share of the above (1/12 of 500 or 42 quid approx) so my trips cost me about 70 quid. Thats not bad for an estate-full of gear and either usually 2 people being transported. Even if that were my only use, that would still be better than trains can do price or convenience. I can only imagine the hell it would be transporting 2 bikes, 2 people, 4 bags and some kitesurfing kit via a train. I did it once in france with just bikes and bags, on clean huge trains and that was painful enough!
So I buy a car with good mpg and park in cheap places. When I do this I can easily out-price the train AND get nearer to my destination, saving time and allowing me to sit in comfort with my own music on and my choice of air freshener.
Cars cost less than you think if you dont feel the need to buy on finance and if you have a few tools to do the minor jobs yourself.
Commute Glasgow to Edinburgh everyday. 92 miles return and car share with 2 others. For me to take the train would cost £20 a day return (£83 for weekly) For me to take my turn to drive usually 2 days a week. Cost for car 58mpg - 1.58 gallons a day = 7.9 litres. Current 106p a litre for fuel. That only equals 8.37 a day - 2 days a week £16.74. Thats a saving of £66.26 a week which is £3445.52 a year.Take that over the 3 of us that car share thats £10,336.56. Its cheaper to by and run a car between 3 of us!! My car doesn't cost me that to run!!! Seem a no brainer to me. And the Government wonder why people don't use public transport.
I did this trip the other day and it was £10.30 single and £10.40 retun I think (off peak). The fully loaded cost of driving it in my car is around £0.27 including wear and tear, tyres depriciation, so thats £27. If I'm traveling alone then train is far better value even at the £18.80 peak rate
Does your car not depreciate if you take the train?
Left Calder Road In Edinburgh at 8:20 this morning and was in Caledonian Uni at 9:05. Couple of minor hold ups, but nothing major. I might be tempted to drive all the time at that rate...
2) trains are easier and more convenient and cheaper than you often think
My car is even easier and more convenient
It leaves when I want
It goes at the speed I want it to
It doesnt sit stationary for 15 minutes just outside the destination I'm trying to get to
It doesn't charge me more to drive it at certain times of the day
It's cleaner
It doesn't smell
It's not full of knuckle dragging 'tards
I once booked a train ticket from North Wales to Surrey for two in time for a 10.30 meeting on a monday. As I was travelling on a rail warrent I thought I'd go first class and why not.
Ticket cost £420 each, I kid you not! Standard class £260 each.
Solution, hire a car £60, fuel £50.
Does your car not depreciate if you take the train?
I, unlike a lot of people, buy cars that are at or very near the end of their depreciation. It'd be nice if they didnt depreciate with lack of use though I have to admit!
I just checked the cost of a return to London from Chippenham in October for the Bike show. The best I got was £21.50, and I'd need to use the Tube when I get there, although I do have an Oyster card, so add another £3. I usually go via coach, which is £19 return, and I get dropped close to the venue, and pick up outside. I'd use the car, if it wasn't for the car parking. TJ can call me a liar if he wants, but the last time I did a motorway run, which was 244 miles to get a set of wheels to replace damaged ones, I cruised up the M4 and around the M25, and my car's computer told me I was getting 63.8/gallon, which meant I used less than half a tank of diesel, around £19. 42ltr tank on an Octy 1.9TDi. It's the additional £15 carpark for the day that stops me driving. If I go with a mate for a gig, then costs are shared, so no issue there. It's the damned inconvenience of public transport that gets me most of all. TJ can spout on all he likes about not using cars, but I bet he lives in a city with everything close at hand. I don't. Bath is twelve miles away, and Bristol, where I go for most of the concerts I want to see, is twenty-five miles. Now, getting there isn't too much of an issue, but most concerts tend to finish 10.30-11.00pm. The last train back from Bristol? 10.00pm
TJ may be only too happy to leave half-way through the headline set, but I'll be ****ed if I am. I'm happy that TJ can exist happily without a car, but his constant hectoring of those who chose to use a car is wearing a little thin.
Xipe -
Hectoring? Not at all on this thread thos I will admit guilt on that in the past.
Its the rubbish people on here spout about public transport that annoys me and the pure snobbery that some use as an excuse not to use it.
AS above - for sure you can pay £300 for glasgow / london return but as I showed you can also much much less without travelling at stupid times of the day.
To say that the only cost of driving is the petrol is also rubbish - as you state car parking adds to the cost sand so does wear and tear on the car.
I do live in a city yes. I also use trains a fair amount. I find them cheap, quick, reliable and comfortable. And of course you can get on a train after a few beers
Totec - driving into London 😯
I hate driving anywhere south of Kendal - too busy and too many ignorant selfish twunts on the road. I let the train take the strain on business.
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Is it just me, or aren't you supposed to ride the C2C?;o)
d'oh!
A quick mental calculation of costs incurred in the 3 years I owned my car, and it cost me (very roughly) about £7 per day (£5 or which was depreciation), not including fuel. So to drive Edinburgh to Glasgow and back would be £7 plus about £10 in diesel plus parking costs. So yes, probably cheaper to get the train, and arguably less stressful (M8 is a f*cking abomination!). However, if I'd bought a cheaper car then less depreciation and therefore probably cheaper than the train. However, the train only costs when you use it - a car is always costing you...
[i]AS above - for sure you can pay £300 for glasgow / london return but as I showed you can also much much less without travelling at stupid times of the day.[/i]
But as in my example (which would be from Wigan), I'm not expected to arrive at half one, if I have to travel to the smoke I'm expected to be there for 9am and I'm expected to work right through to 5pm. And that's another thing. I'll have reservations for seats on the appropriate trains and because they're in rush hour they'll be packed so I'll get to my reserved seat and someone (invariably a meaty scotch bloke drinking out of a can of lager) will be sat in it. I will ask him to move and he'll refuse, what can you do? I'll then end up sitting in another seat that's been reserved because it's the only one available. Along comes the reservee for that seat. But I'm not moving see, my seat's been taken, I don't care how many months pregnant you are.
What a pile of rubbish on this here thread. People don't look at the total cost making a car journey, it's the marginal cost of the journey i.e. fuel and parking. If they have sunk the "investment" into having a car it's a valid way of looking at it.
Tandemjeremy - if you're deciding between getting a pizza from the shops and cooking it yourself and getting a takeaway pizza do you add something to the price of the shop pizza to cover the costs of having a kitchen in your house (extra room is maybe £25k on the purchase price for example), an allowance for wear and tear on the oven and kitchen units and baking tray in making the comparison, or do you think "**** it, I've made the decision to have a kitchen, I might as well use that to heat up a pizza"?
People generally underestimate the costs of having a supermarket pizza.
SCIENCE FACT
ps Scotrail trains do smell of piss - if you think they don't then you must also smell of piss. And there is rarely a drunk person in my car wanting to talk about the 'fitba or engage me in sectarian banter. Can't say the same about the train.
tj I don't think it's snobery to want to travel in civilised condition. Sorry I don't like the smell of Piss and the breath of drunkyard. Plus when you work, you most of the time are not free to choose your timetable, therefore having to travel at some specific times.
I'm happy that TJ can exist happily without a car
Well he doesn't.
Quoting prices for trains at specific times is pointless - who cares if you can get 90% off every time Tuesday falls on a Wednesday?
You need to quote typical prices
An off-peak return from my nearest station [Darlington] to Guildford [My office] is £178
Fuel cost to drive is about £55 - I can certainly do there & back on a single tankfull
Travel time is about the same @ ~5 hrs
I'll ignore the extras for getting to & from the stations
ps Canary Wharf to Edinburgh City Centre in 3 hours is entirely doable (Tube to Canning Town, DLR to City Airport, through security, time for a piss and a sandwich, onto plane, off at Edinburgh, pay for parking, drive into Edinburgh, park on Castle Terrace, walk to work). Personal best is 2 hours 40.
Train would take twice as long for that journey (at best) and usually costs more.
used to travel to dundee
return at peak was 9 quid each
Weeks ticket was 40 quid each
80 quid per week for 2 to go to uni
Car was 20quid of fuel for a week and took me and my mate to the door not to a 20 min walk at each end ! we just swapped who took their car each week
Aberdeen is cheaper by train however if there is only 1 person going - its 20 quid of fuel or 20 quid for a return ticket !
iirc it was cheaper for goan to travel edinburgh to aberdeen for uni than it was to do edinburgh to glasgow !
Seeing as many train timetables appear to be works of fiction, I have decided to go for the extremely expensive option of the Edinburgh to Glasgow route. I do get a 16-25 railcard which gets me a 1/3rd off though and can claim travelling expenses, so it isn't all bad.
The glasgow-edinburgh service is pretty damn good, to be fair- comfy modern trains, nice stable ride. It takes me longer to get to glasgow by public transport than by motorbike, that's for sure, but I prefer the train as I can spend the time reading or similiarly chilling out, instead of riding.
I had to laugh when I took the train up to fort william, edinburgh to glasgow to FW- the entire ticket price was £17, the single to Glasgow alone would have been been £9.80.