[Closed] Trades persons and the rates they charge.

How do we put a value on a job / profession / trade? Is it their professionalism, their qualifications, their patter, our perceptions about how much they know, our perceptions on the complexity of their jobs, how hard they work?

If we trained and invested in our trades more would we be happy to pay them more?

Good post. I think whatever job you have once you're in work qualification become less and less important (I say this with 3 degrees, a couple of C&G and several other short courses to my name) and what counts is your attitude to learning and development. I've met people who have done their apprenticeship / degree / whatever and 10 years down the line don't know much more. They are faster and know a few short cuts but have really developed their knowledge and understanding. Others keep learning and developing. These are the people that are worth it.

I'm self employed and have been for 30 years..it's what chickens says not junkyard..

I've taken my fair share of knocks and cowboy-customers..got stung for 13K one year so unless I know you & you're not in that London you are going to be charged approx £200 a day while the going is good..

You've got to remember when the recession hit the self-employed builder suffered big-time...I changed what I do because the ass fell out of the commercial and private building game..before the recession hit I would of thought long and hard about going to work for £200 a day compared with going to work on a piece rate somewhere..

The beginning of 2013 was a bad start to the year and didn't do a full week til May..that's self employment for you..the good times cover the bad & sick days & holidays etc..

It's definitely a middle class profession though

Just about all the photographers I know had a working class upbringing, it's the money they have earned that has enabled them to savour the bourgeois lifestyle. 8)
It's still lacks the posh public school old boy crap that I see in big businesses and sexism/racism doesn't seem to have a place IME (I include the film/TV/advertising/design world in that statement)

im putting my prices up

Pay the man and apreciate his work and remember you wouldn't have got it done without him.

Amen.

Just about all the photographers I know had a working class upbringing,

It's still a middle class profession. I know midle clss people who have gone on to train in plumbing, brikclaying, capentry etc. And they've become 'working class' becaise ofthe perception that such trdases arn't middle classprofessions.

Hourly or daily rates do not multiply out to an equivilent salary. Running costs and overheads come out of that.

I wonder if many people find these skilled people annoying because of the fact that there are so many little variables that are never mentioned when the deal is done. I moaned when a chap said he knocked off at 4. At least I had asked first but I wanted to know why he didn't work longer hours. I don't see 8 to 4 minus an hour and a half for lunch and breaks as a decent day. He didn't get the job but at least I did ask. There are too may questions to ask. How long is your lunch break etc? Must admit to being a right sod like that but I never complain when the job is done as long as its properly done. That of course means that it has to be better than what I could do.
Answering your phone is your own time as well just like any other bloody job.
That's what your home phone is for.

Last time I hired a trades person they quoted £350 to fit a wood floor.

That's what they charged and the rate seemed low by the time he had finished and the quality of the work very high. He also faffed around doing the shopping for skirting boards etc

Photographers apparently in general don't earn much

A wedding Photographer may charge a grand for the day but the work isn't really over at the end of the day. There is alot of back room work post processing and editing, possibley a pre meeting. Equipment costs are high and it must be hard to achieve 100 days work a year let alone 200

But last thought. Do get a quote

Doctors earn from £54,863 according to the NHS and they pay tax

No one know what GPs earn but it is I believe way more than that. They have a silly system that rewards caring for the middle class well rather than less well in city types

I have a Sparky who has done all our electrical work over the last two years, and worked on/off for my parents for the last 20 years. He's non-VATable (like many trades around here) so I buy all the materials.

I've no actually idea what he charges per hour as most of the jobs/work is hours/half-days etc fitting in around his other commitments, as we discuss the job and he tells me when he can do it and what materials I need.

He does the job with no fuss, gives me a hand-written invoice and I pay him (through the bank). I trust him and don't feel at all ripped off - I have a Carpenter who does the same, except he's VATable.

Just wish I could find a Plumber the same.

Answering your phone is your own time as well just like any other bloody job.
That's what your home phone is for.

😯 how are you supposed to run a business? Big difference between chatting on the phone to your mates and dealing with the next job, I think you will find a lot of self employed people work this way as the people they need to communicate with probably don't like being rang at home in the evenings 🙄

Photographers apparently in general don't earn much

In the mass market, deal with public, anyone with a DSLR can compete world then yes. If you're a pro and get phoned up by the Sunday Times Commissioning desk asking if you have time to do a custom job for the front cover of the WE supplement (as my sister law is) then you're very well paid....

Editorial rates are low, be very surprised if a Sunday supplement cover is more than 1k and that will be all-in and with a 2-3 page inner feature in that too.
In fact the more desirable it is to shoot for the magazine the lower the rates are, the trendy/edgy fashion mags pay £0

Back to the OP, I would say the costs are on the high side but that can happen if you don't get a quote up front.

Saying that, if I don't quote up front (I am a web designer) I tend to charge *less* than I would normally as I don't want people think I am taking advantage and shafting them.

But I had some electrical work done recently:

Change a single to a double wall switch (inc. moving the wiring), make good some temporary fixes I had done (during a bathroom removal), add wiring, switches, controller etc for underfloor heating, extractor fan and dual fuel radiator + all wiring, wire up ready for x6 downlighters (I supplied), chase in wiring ready for a shaver socket and under-counter lighting, come back to move some switches we weren't happy with siting of then finally come back for the second fix.

Cost us £420 and we paid immediately on invoice. I didn't get a quote up front but I have used him before and trust him – and find that by paying *very* promptly, we get fair prices and good service.

This is what I used for the salaries
http://www.parasolgroup.co.uk/calculator/annual-salary-calculator/

According to them:
£200pd = £52K pa

Which is £200 x 5 * 52.

If you take 4 weeks off, that drops it to 48K..... however most/all builders I know work for cash for a good chunk of what they do, so that's tax free which makes the real world take home salary much higher than a PAYE worker.

Doctors salary:
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/

I agree some builders work hard, but some really take the piss.

Personally if I find someone good I am happy to the going rate as they are a rare find!

NB: just to qualify my comments my brothers (2) are builders, my dad is a builder, all my cousins (3) are builders and my grand father was a builder and the pisstakers they encounter on a weekly basis drives them nuts.

however most/all builders I know work for cash for a good chunk of what they do, so that's tax free which makes the real world take home salary much higher than a PAYE worker.

NB: just to qualify my comments my brothers (2) are builders, my dad is a builder, all my cousins (3) are builders and my grand father was a builder and the pisstakers they encounter on a weekly basis drives them nuts.

Fraud runs in the family does it?

Fraud runs in the family does it?

You really are a dick aren't you, but to answer your snide remark they moan that *everyone* works for cash and they don't as they are VAT registered as they all have a couple of people working for them .........

reality is there is a *lot* of cash work that never gets declared and if you don't believe that you are deluded.

Answering your phone is your own time as well just like any other bloody job.
That's what your home phone is for.

What a load of rubbish.

If tradesmen didn't answer their phone during the day, they would be out of work the following week.

You clearly have no idea what it's like running a small business.

"Take 48 weeks thats £48k"

Now get in the real world.
Van every 3 years (a 2nd hand one) £1 - 1.5k yr.
Insurance - Van, Personal Liability and any other needed - £1k+ yr.
Van maintenance etc £500/yr
Trade membership - £500+
Tax/Accountant £750 yr
Tool replacement - £250+ yr
Bad debts, typically £1k yr for me.
Fuel, typically £60/wk - £3k yr.

Thats £8k+ to take off straight away.
Add on that you will not be working 5 days a week for 48 weeks. Rain / snow are a killer for construction. Expect 10 - 14 days a year lost to the weather. Another £2000+ lost.

Then when you have time with no work.
I'm busy overall, but am having this afternoon off - did a 2 hour job this morning, start a bigger one tomorrow. This will happen 10 times or more a year, so that is at least another 5 days of 'full' rates lost. These days are good, as I can catch up with invoicing. I've been given £60 cash today. Amazingly (for some!), I'll be doing a receipt for it. So thats another £1k a year lost.
So I'm now down to 37k yr, so long as I'm busy. But then you have a Contract that will 'only' pay £150 a day, but does guarantee work for 4 months. Of course you will take it, as it is guaranteed. So 4 months with a 25% discount, and you are now another 3-4k down.

Now I've got another Training Course. 1 week, £600. Plus 1k lost earnings.
I'm struggling to get £30k now.

What should I be earning?
20+ years experience. Very qualified, can work on any electrical installation. Design and Inspect buildings up to warehouse size.

I think £30k is a minimum. I havent earnt anywhere near that in the last 7 years.
In fact £20k would be nice. Not that I'm moaning, I'm happy being on my own, do what jobs I want to do, not what I'm told to do.
But there is no way I'm going to be rich by charging £200/day. never mind my typical £150/day.

But there is no way I'm going to be rich by charging £200/day. never mind my typical £150/day.

Personally, I don't have a problem with £200 a day and £150 seems very cheap for a sparky; going rate around here is £200->£250. Personally its the £350 to £500 I think is mental.

As for your break down of costs that should all be tax deductible? Which pushes your take home up, as you will be paying less tax (which doesn't detract from the fact that your day rate seems low).

Does no one realise what is charged isn't what the worker earns?

On internal projects I'm charged (pimped really) out at €800 a day. I don't see that.

alanl - you missed when some miserable b****** doesn't pay you. My Dad is/was a sparky and the best advice he ever gave me was 'don't follow me'.

OP - you'll get a quote upfront next time, then at least you'll havbe a rough idea.. I only ask for a proper explanation if it goes +20% over the quote, and even then it can be justifiable - you can't always expect the worker to take the hit IMHO.

Doctors earn from £54,863 according to the NHS and they pay tax

No, they don't........certainly not until they have had a specialty for at least a few years. Doctors in hospitals don't work a 40 hour week and lets not get into the absurd shift patterns either!

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/

Doctors in training

Doctors in training earn a basic salary and will be paid a supplement if they work more than 40 hours and/or work outside the hours of 7am-7pm Monday to Friday.

In the most junior hospital trainee post (Foundation Year 1) the basic starting salary is £22,636. This increases in Foundation Year 2 to £28,076. For a doctor in specialist training the basic starting salary is £30,002. If the doctor is contracted to work more than 40 hours and/or to work outside 7am-7pm Monday to Friday, they will receive an additional supplement which will normally be between 20% and 50% of basic salary. This supplement is based on the extra hours worked above a 40 hour standard working week and the intensity of the work.

General practitioners

Many general practitioners (GPs) are self employed and hold contracts, either on their own or as part of a Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG). The profit of GPs varies according to the services they provide for their patients and the way they choose to provide these services.

Salaried GPs who are part of a CCG earn between £54,863 to £82,789 dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience.

Does no one realise what is charged isn't what the worker earns?

only those people who work for medium large businesses who really have no idea what day to day business costs are. if they knew what the rates on the building or the costs of taking refuge away or insurance were they would probably be shocked.

Ok then, ftfy

Doctors can earn from £54,863 [s]according to the NHS and they pay tax[/s] depending on the decisions they have made, supplementary pay they may receive, exams they may have sat and ultimately, once they have progressed far enough in their career. They can also earn a lot less than that.

Something that I think needs emphasising is that "Tax deductable" does not mean "free".
i.e.

Turnover = £100
Taxable profit = £100
Tax @ 24% = £24
Take home = £76

a business with deductible expenses:
Turnover = £100
Tax deductible expenses = £20
Taxable profit = £80
Tax @ 24% = £19
Take home = £61

of the £20 of expenses, the tax man has "paid" for £5 and I've paid £15.

"Tax deductable" does not mean "free".

A massive +1 to this. A few folk seem to reckon that things like vans, computers, phones, tools etc all come for free.

You really are a dick aren't you, but to answer your snide remark they moan that *everyone* works for cash and they don't as they are VAT registered as they all have a couple of people working for them .........

reality is there is a *lot* of cash work that never gets declared and if you don't believe that you are deluded.

And you sir are even more deluded if you believe your family don't do cash deals just because they're VAT registered.

A few folk seem to reckon that things like vans, computers, phones, tools etc all come for free.

It's always seemed incredible to me how many seemingly intelligent and knowledgeable people don't understand this.

I've had customers comment many times on things like my good quality tools and nice van, and saying that they wish they could get stuff like that for free.

No wonder employed people think self employment is one big freebie, tax free party 🙄

Some Gps get over £200,000

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/10334773/Thousands-of-GPs-paid-more-than-the-Prime-Minister.html

Gps on about £100,000

http://www.****/news/article-2510905/British-GPs-best-paid-West--nurses-average.html

Now I'm not complaining about doctors having a good salary.

More of a problem is that Gps get less in areas of deprivation

Surprised that no trades person has mentioned the cost of quoting for work. For the last 3 jobs we paid out on the person pitched and gave advice for an hour and then sent a quote. They didn't charge for this. Try that with you solicitor. No don't get me started

"Tax deductable" does not mean "free".

Workers cannot deduct this from anything and just have to buy it after tax.

As i said swings and roundabouts. IMHO this is a "perk" of self employment.

Do you pay for your desk at work? Your stationery? Your computer? The premises? Someone to fix stuff when it breaks? No. Your employer does and claims for it, then pays you the rest so you can exist in blissful ignorance of how expensive it is to run a business for yourself. Oh and he also works out your tax for you. 😀

And allows you access to a better mortgage rate.

Indeed DD swings and roundabouts.

Both have their advantages and their disadvantages.

Some people seem rather bitter about the fact that some of us are self employed.

I too, get snide remarks, disguised as jokes, about the fact that I don't pay tax.
True,I'll put as much through the books as I can which means the occasional meal out, clothing, bike parts (I do however work as a bike guide and commute by bike so justified), tools, my computer all count towards my expenses.

I can't put my van through the books thanks to the crazy German tax system.I can't get anything back on the cost of our flat as my office isn't a closed room. I can't put the monthly internet through the books as I'm not the only one who has access to it.

Sometimes I think I'd be financially better off being an employee. Then I remember that it'd mean getting up and going to work every day of the week....

Gps on about £100,000

'Some' may be earning this but it isn't the standard. Range from 55k -80k as a rule.

Three of my friends from school are GP's. They left med school about 6 years ago. All earning over £100k. (two in Birmingham, one near Manchester). This includes the one who took a year out to travel and then moaned she had only earned £60k the following year. Don't seem to see them much these days......

Had two boilers fitted in the past three years (moved house). Both times the fitter was charging approx £400 PD. Not sure what they take home, but my wife thinks I should retrain!

The boiler fitter is not fitting boilers 5 days a week and that will be his rate for fitting and commissioning a boiler (lots of expensive meters and training needed for that bit). Above all is the shear responsibility involved in boiler installation and the likelihood of being called back FOC to problem solve some issue or other (combi boilers are fickle beasts).
If tradesmen are making a packet it is because a lot of them are working 70 hour weeks (building sites tend to be less depressing than going round shopping centres with the family at weekends).

but my wife thinks I should retrain!

Depends what you earn now.

But if you can afford to effectively earn nothing for the first year, while paying out for training and tools.

Then exams and certification.

Then buying a vehicle, paying for advertising, public liability insurance, expensive trade vehicle insurance and lots of other stuff you won't think about till you need it.

Go for it.

The boiler fitter is not fitting boilers 5 days a week

At the end of the day £400 per day is about the average weekly net pay.

You may wish to try and justify it but it is a lot of money to the majority of the population.

I'm self employed (10 years+). I supply and fit kitchens. I don't work for domestic customers on a day rate. I do work for a company during school holidays @£160pd. After cis tax it's £128pd or £640pw. Less diesel, screws, blah blah.
So for working my ass off, it's not a fortune. As previously mentioned, factor in non pay time, books, pricing, sitting about when it's quiet, cleaning van etc. I'd probably make more in a year being employed.
And I can't buy a bike on the cycle2work scheme!

At the end of the day £400 per day is about the average weekly net pay.

A massive +1 to this. A few folk seem to reckon that things like vans, computers, phones, tools etc all come for free.

And I can't buy a bike on the cycle2work scheme!

Self employed, sat here reading this as I don't have any work on today, whilst my riding mates who are employed and earn a less hourly rate are in the alps for a week.
I couldn't commit to this holiday 6 months ago when they booked as I had no idea how this years work would go or if I'd be able to take time off.
Swings & rounderabouts, no holidays but new bike on tax rebate.

[Yes you can, speak to an accountant.]

No you can't,

"Please note that the scheme is available to UK tax payers who pay PAYE. Self-employed workers cannot take part in the scheme."

You have to be in the paye system.

I could buy it, pay for it out of my pocket and offset it against my tax liability but my accountant wasn't to impressed as I couldn't really justify using it for business.

No you can't,