[Closed] Trad climbing helpful advice?

If you're feeling like routes at MVS are too risky or unjustifiable then pick routes that have better gear and / or have a good hard think about your protection placing skills and get some help if necessary. There are plenty of routes at that grade which have excellent protection.

edit - just read the rest of the thread and it seems you've got this advice already.

Whitestone was actually where we went in the afternoon, We've been a couple of times I really like it there! I only just clicked!

Thanks again

Eliminate A on Dow Crag was my first Lakeland VS [cough] years ago. An absolute belter to aspire to when you're happy on multi-pitch stuff. Thomas at Wallowbarrow is good and handy.

I've done a few at Wallowbarrow but I'm terrible at remembering names or being bothered keeping a record. I know it was east on the Crag though the last time I climbed there and enjoyable.

The Whitestone MVS I climbed was "Cracked Wall" which UKC has as a HS 4b

Happy enough on multipitch

I ordered a few books this morning so I'll get reading up too

I know you requested helpful advice, and this may not sound too helpful - but it's meant in the nicest way 🙂

It sounds like you're going to hurt yourself!

From what I've read in this thread it sounds like you've limited climbing experience outdoors, thought you were climbing MVS and ended up on a poorly protected HVS.

I think the idea of being able to focus totally on the climb is great (and a lovely feeling when you're in that place on hard routes) - you should focus on maintaining and building that by consolidating your climbing on well protected routes. Don't do anything that'll mean you lose that confidence.

Knowing when you are in a dodgy place (and how to get out of it safely) comes with experience. 20+m up with crap gear under your feet is not place to discover how quickly performance drops off when you discover "the fear" and how quickly (instantly!) you can get pumped. It's a very steep learning curve from up there, and it it'll take a long time to rebuild that confidence if you do deck.

I have sort of skim read this so sorry of I repeat anything anyone else has said

Firstly MVS a Lake things. I think it crosses the HS VS boundary

It may be worth giving a little background. I'm 50 and currently climbing but not at a high standard. This summer I have lead 1 VS loads of HS and S. Indoors upto 6a and a few easy angles 6as Outdoors. I don#t think I'll do any more runouts.I taught my son to lead this summer. How now leads VS outdoors. Back on the day I was climbing a fair bit harder than that

I did do some routes with run outs on routes. Mainly I'm happy that I controlled the risks. But I have a few regrets the risks I took

This is my thoughts about risk. In some ways your in an ideal position. Being scared doesn't help it just makes you do things badly. But you need to keep a constant objective eye on risk.

I use to build a sort of chain in my mind that I was always reviewing. Near the top of the steep route, objectively risk can be low.

Risk of falling, low
Risk of top runner failing, low
Risk of the nest runner failing, low
Risk of the next runner failing, low
Risk of hitting anything even if 3 runners fail, low

Basically that is safe as house

In your opening post things weren't so good

Risk of falling (I don't know)
Risk of runner failure high
Things to hit yes

Our overal assessement all depends on the first pont. If you genuinely felt comfortable on every move and would have no worries down climbing then you were fine. If you were any where near a risk of falling then you were pushing to hard IMHO. Edit as your not that expereinced lets say it was not the right situation as you need expereince to judge when you might fall

What I think you need now (its what my son to have) is an apprenticeship. Just loads of trad mileage, go for quality not grade. I did a few years of upto VS. Just loads of different routes. You'll then be fast and accurate with gear, Happy reading guide books etc.

At that point I think its OK to explode through the grades

In the summer from you I'd be up on the mountain crags doing loads of classics

Your not far from North Yorkshire Limestone. Attemire springs to mind

I beg to differ. The Roaches is distinctly green and damp in places at the moment; especially overhanging places

The Roaches always has distinctly green and damp bits 😉 . Ramshaw ftw right now.

It sounds like you're going to hurt yourself!

Whilst I'd agree with the words of caution, I can't help but think it's a little too cautious. Thinking back to my now sadly defunct climbing career, some of the most valuable lessons I learned were the times when things went wrong. I had everything from going off route, gear falling out, gear failing, and getting hopelessly psyched/pumped on crux moves with no get out option other than to complete the route. The point is if you want to improve you have to push the boundaries. The trick is judging how far.

My best advice to the OP would be to get good at placing gear, and judging when to run it out or not.

Not much to add other than getting out with someone much more experienced at placing gear than you. They can then critique your placements when seconding or even point out missed gear placements. Try and do a few easy multi pitch routes with them too so you can learn how to put a good belay stance together and get used to swapping leads. Corvus in Borrowdale is a classic low grade outing; even when I was climbing way above the grade it was still a superbly enjoyable route.

Maybe invest in a bouldering mat too for the base of the crag; nice to sit on beteeen routes, good to clean your boots on and adds some confidence to leading. Also, probably stating the obvious but the smaller the crag, the more likely you are to deck out especially if you can't get some decent gear in low down.

Finally as others have said, just work your way through the grades reasonably slowly, no need to feel compelled to start ticking E grades quickly (though you'd probably get up low grade E1, E2 now) and pick routes based on guidebook descriptions and what you like the look of at the crag when you get there. Popular routes, whilst more polished, tend to have their gear placements in the bleeding obvious category as they are so well used.

I've been known to run out routes but I generally get a couple of good pieces above the belay and then run it out until i think..."oh sh!t, look how far up i am". This has been multi pitch stuff in winter though and only really on long straight gullies where a fall would mean a long slide until the rope catches...not above rocky outcrops. I also only do this when i'm climbing well within my grade and having a good day.

However, I think you also need to think of your climbing partners too. What would happen in the event of a freak fall? Would you get hurt? what position would that leave your partner in? Having witnessed a couple of falls on single pitch routes where the climber has bounced off the ground, their partners have freaked out a bit and it's not been a nice situation, quite distressing actually for all concerned. So out of respect for your belayer, I think you should make an effort to put a piece in every 5m at least (more gear on shorter routes). Otherwise you may as well just solo.

Are you taking your safety for granted? it's one of the reasons I prefer trad to sport, the risks are greater so the reward tastes sweeter!

From what I've read in this thread it sounds like you've limited climbing experience outdoors, thought you were climbing MVS and ended up on a poorly protected HVS.

Sadly, getting out of your depth and off route can be part of the learning experience! Managed to turn VS into HVS and above a couple of times through my ineptitude, including a memorable one on a sea cliff when an easy HVS turned into a massively run-out E2.

Your not far from North Yorkshire Limestone. Attemire springs to mind

I love that area but I'm not convinced it's a great recommendation for someone to build confidence. Lots of the easier routes on Yorkshire lime are polished, some have the odd loose hold and hard for the grade starts above iffy landings are not uncommon.

their partners have freaked out a bit and it's not been a nice situation

I've been surprised with how calm people can be. One of my first days in the Peak a guy fell off Downhill Racer breaking both ankles. He was helped into a comfortable position to wait for the ambulance and a stretcher while someone went to phone for an ambulance (no mobile phones back then) then everyone else got on with climbing.

The off-width wasn't Don's Crack, it was on Burbage IIRC.

I love that area but I'm not convinced it's a great recommendation for someone to build confidence. Lots of the easier routes on Yorkshire lime are polished, some have the odd loose hold and hard for the grade starts above iffy landings are not uncommon.

I over reached my advice. That's the trouble with being a Southerner

I just remembering doing morning star I think when I was getting back into climbing after a break

There's some classic VS routes at Brimham and Ilkley. I think the easiest VS I lead in my heyday was twin cracks at woodhouse scar.

Having some 'bewareness' of being numb to fear and dropping a couple of grades to consolidate your experience seems like a good way forward. I get the impression that doing 'an apprenticeship' in learning to trad lean, by gaining experience as one works up the grades is pretty much the best way to be safe.

Having got injured by too much climbing as a youth, on the bad side I've dodgy elbows, but on the good side I'm having to drop right down in my grades and just go climbing - as it were, which is probably a plus when it comes to safety. It could be worse.

I just remembering doing morning star

Not finding that in the YL guide?

I had a brilliant 2 days soloing at Twistleton, Attermire and Oxenber in October. Idyllic spots and very quiet.

Not finding that in the YL guide?

Or Moonshine at Attermire?

Thanks for the continued advice - all has been read and greatly appreciated, it's all certainly helping and very insightful.

I'm going to take the wise advice and swat up on my knowledge a bit more on the reading side and get some milage in better protected routes.

Any more route suggestions or advice appreciated 🙂

This makes me nostalgic although I was very much a classic rock not a hard rock kind of guy. Especially when leading - this was pre-caming devices mind!

I am spooked by the concept of being numb to risks though. As mountaineers, risk assessment and management is a priority. I talk as someone who used to do a bit of soloing (at rel. low grades in the context of this thread). The buzz there was not any numbness. On the contrary it was the very heightened sense of risk - and the memory of how fast your fall when it goes wrong 😉

Anyway -good luck in the wider context and enjoy your climbing. Great photo BTW!

Any more route suggestions or advice appreciated

Avoid 'microroutes' at this point, get on things that are a proper length. Trying to lead those short sharp 6-8m things you so often encounter on grit, limestone and Northumberland sandstone is a sure fire way to failure and demoralisation!

Go for volume, set yourself a challenge of x many routes / pitches / metres of climbing in a day, the grade doesn't matter for this. If you feel up to it do some soloing well within your grade.

And as others have said, get in tow with someone who can give constructive feedback on your gear placement etc.

Oh, and next spring, set some time aside and go to Reiff. If there was ever a climbng area designed to boost confidence and develop skills in a friendly way it's Reiff. Stunning scenery too.

Avoid 'microroutes' at this point, get on things that are a proper length. Trying to lead those short sharp 6-8m things you so often encounter on grit, limestone and Northumberland sandstone is a sure fire way to failure and demoralisation!

Only if you worry about grades. Just drop a few grades when you start climbing on grit or sandstone, it takes a while to get used climbing with your whole body, smearing and relying on friction.

Just drop a few grades

Sometimes quite a few.

It's a funny thing trad climbing because being relaxed in dangerous situations really is the key to it (and is why so few good climbers at the wall end up fulfilling their potential outdoors). This is different from being a go-for-it-merchant (yes you do get away with it 99% of the time; that 1% will catch up with you eventually).
I was a complete weakling, hopeless at bouldering and indoors. Had a good head and climbed way harder trad routes than I ought to have. I now ride a bike like a big pussy! 😀

An apt name! 😀

For me it was always about time on the rock, and the specifics of each type of rock/crag. I might have climbed E whatever on something, but I'd always drop down a bit for a new crag and build up mileage again.

Somewhere that allows you to completely immerse yourself in that particular type of climbing for a extended period always saw my best climbing. Places like Lundy, where you go for a week or so, are brilliant for this. (as well as being a truely inspiring place to climb).

Sorry

Evening Star

Twisleton

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=39856#photos

Brimham is an odd place to climb. Some very poorly protected routes as well as many that are safe as climbing can be

back to the OP. In case this hasn't come up

phrases that mean poor or distant protection

run out
committing (all this can include how easy it is to escape or reverse)
hard to protect
bold etc.

Actualy exposed is not usually a reference to protection. It refers to a sense of height or being over a large drop

I guess what I'm asking is, am I risking too much too soon? Is it normal / safe to feel numb in the face of danger? Do I need to find more protected routes to build my trad experience rather than just climbing any MVS I find?

Hi. To add to what's been said above, it sounds like you're doing OK - at least you're stepping back and looking at how you're climbing instead of just thoughtlessly going for it until you get badly out of your depth!

Yes, I think you should concentrate on getting mileage in on easier/better protected routes to gain experience in placing gear. The people I've always enjoyed climbing with the most have been the competent and calm, irrespective of grade: the people who know how to place gear, who know when they can trust it enough to jump off onto it, who know when it's just there because there's nothing else and who can place a piece with just a couple of tries of size and orientation. All stuff that comes from experience.

I don't think it's normal to feel numb in the face of danger. You don't sound like you have the experience to judge if you're in a genuinely dodgy situation or not so you should at least be more nervous.. in fact you should be pretty nervous all the time when climbing at about VS, as the picture you posted shows it's a grade where there's usually a fine selection of ledges to hit. Airborne retreat shouldn't really be an option unless it's steep and you know the gear is good (and that there's preferably a lot of it). Of course, as someone else said you only really learn by direct experience, so sooner or later you'll end up hanging from gear and probably being slightly surprised that it held. But I would NOT suggest jumping off to do any kind of deliberate fall testing unless you have a lot of backup, you're with someone who really knows what they are doing and you're wearing a helmet (as any top piece that rips will be following you down the rope..). If you've been leading indoors then you already know how to fall, but you need a lot of different experience to know the difference between bomber gear, OK gear and iffy placements that are just psychological.

Someone else mentioned this, but I agree that it'd be a good idea to start getting your own gear. It's sometimes a bit awkward on multipitch routes where it's easier to combine racks, but if you're just cragging then you can always use your own, and learning what you've got and how it's racked makes finding the right sized nut or friend a bit faster.

I hope all that isn't off-putting. It's worth building the experience. Knocking off some big lead where you climb well, protect it well and then look back up the route that's empty of metalwork is a fantastic feeling and a real achievement and something to aspire to.

All good added advice, thanks guys it's nice getting a collectives thoughts, it feels much more balanced getting considered feedback like this of all your advice / experiences.. and dare I say it much nicer than UKC!

I'm not sure about this numbness..it's bugging me a bit to be honest if its a thing or not.

Basically I can remember at one point being very scared of doing big drops on my mountain bike (chalet road gap style) and then one day it felt like nothing, I still got a buzz off landing though but the feeling of doing it was more methodical. Now on bikes if there is something big that I haven't done and think I'm in a more methodical than apprehensive mindset.. but normally I'd follow a mate into something and I'd have full trust in their ability.. it's rare that I'll go and tackle a large new feature for the first time on my own.

I hope im on the calm and not reckless end of the spectrum but I'm not sure I'll know fully without more experience or like you have mentioned a mentor.

Climbing is so strange as everything is done at a much slower pace.. you can walk yourself into danger rather than not have time to process it like on a bike at 15/20mph... that's a huge reason for loving it too as it really engages the brain and feels pure!

I'm sure I'd crap myself just before falling if I did calculate it wrong as I still do indoors. (I climbed an overhang the other week climbed past 2 bolts, finished it and then couldn't clip and hung for 5 seconds knowing I was going to fall and went a bit white!).

So I don't think my emotions are broken, I'm just surprised at my approach to climbing trad... I remember before I did my first trad climb thinking "I'm going to clip gear every 1-2meters as this is dangerous" and before I knew it I was at the top with bigger distances in the gear than I had hoped. Granted it was an easy route but I had specifically set off with the mindset to over place gear.

I had to type all the above to try and come to some conclusions, writing it down makes me think maybe it's just more the case of over climbing and missing the basics of being more strict to place gear.

I'm going to take all the advice on board and get on some well protected routes and go from there.

I'm back in France in June so sadly most of the Summer will be sport climbs but I would like to get some more epic days in higher up if possible with a mix of sport / trad.

[b]My first trad lead - a bit high to the first bit of gear, or just what was available?![/b]
[img] ?raw=1[/img]

[b]My first 6a sport lead - moving through the crux was great but I do remember cacking myself in a horrid smear position[/b]
[img] ?raw=1[/img]

[b]Dodgy UK Sport lead - wasn't massively happy with the distances of the bolts, think I'm on the crux as I remember thinking the rock I was stood on would hurt a bit to swing into[/b]
[img] ?raw=1[/img]

My first trad lead - a bit high to the first bit of gear, or just what was available?!

I wouldn't say so. It looks like mostly a scramble/easy climb to the ledge below the first piece so I'd say that was the logical place to for the first piece of protection. Same with the second, after that you don't really need any more (this is assuming they were good placements). I was always a proponent of the idea that you should only place gear when it makes sense (if you can). One of the first lessons I learned was not to mess around wasting energy on unnecessary protection as it just tires you out and increases the likelihood that you will fall, especially if towards the top of a route.

Interesting - for that 3rd piece though if it was missing and I did fall - it's going to be a bit of a bang onto that first scamble rock isn't it? I thought the idea was to avoid coming in contact with anything below ideally?

Ideally. But that's not always possible. Even on sport climbs, as your picture shows, there can be a risk of hitting something, especially if it's easy-angled.

It's about using your judgement as to the likelihood of you falling vs the objective danger of falling.

The general "rule" is to put in just enough to stop you injuring yourself should you fall. So rather than think about a piece of gear every X metres look for gear that prevents you hitting anything. When you are on easy ground (for the grade) then it's usual to put in less gear as there's less chance of you falling off.

Putting gear in very low down is only usually of use for bouldering type starts since as soon as you get off the ground then rope stretch and belayer reaction times render them useless. Unless the ground below is particularly nasty I wouldn't bother until my feet were at head height then a second piece once my feet were level with that. After that it's a case of reading the route and figuring out which placements to use.

I can only see two pieces. Anyway, this is a good example of the tradeoffs you have to make. If you fiddled around near the top of that pitch trying to fit another piece then you'll increase the chances of falling off. It's all down to how hard you judge the moves ahead to be. If they look ok, then it's probably safer to just keep going as you're only a couple of moves from safety. If you have any doubts, then you'd probably want to place some gear if it's possible. The questions I used to ask myself were:

1. What is the best option to avoid falling off?
2. If I think a fall is possible, am I safe and if not what do I need to do to make myself safe? (sometimes the best/only option is to keep going and take a calculated risk)
3. If the existing gear is iffy or distant, and the moves ahead turn out to be harder than judged will I be able to climb down?
4. If I stay still is rescue an option? (usually by a mate dropping a rope down from above)
5. If all else fails, can I jump off? What will the fall be like, are there any ledges to avoid, What's the landing like?

Thankfully I never had to exercise option 5 🙂

That first trad lead looks really familiar - is it at Shepherds?

Pic 2 sport climb - is that elephant rock in St Jean?

Thanks guys - again appreciated and more to take home. I think I should have those 5 points as a drill in my head Daz.

Martin - yep correct! Not sure what it's called sorry it's near the steps over the wall near the little cham end of the crag.

Dashed - Well spotted! I used to live just down the road in St Jean town so this was my local crag and will be again soon... I cannot wait!

When well within your grade there's objectively no more risk of your feet or hands coming off than letting go of the handlebars on a fast MTB descent, and the consequences aren't so very different if you've got enough gear in to not hit the deck. I had the same attitude to soloing, it had to feel as easy as riding a bike or I climbed back down.

Down climbing is another good confidence builder. It's much better to be able to climb back down or/and lower off on dodgy gear than fall on it. It's only on very steep or overhanging ground that moves become impossible to reverse.

Good to think about 'insurance' gear too - "this next bit's easy but what happens if I can't get anything in before the next tricky bit?"

You'll find yourself taking a lot longer on trad climbs than indoors too. You might be on a bolted route for a couple of minutes, compared to 20-30 mins placing gear, working out where a route goes, working out a move, reversing before committing, etc. That's all good stuff to build into your arsenal before your really need it. At say 6a indoors the moves are usually very obvious and you can either pull or you can't. Outdoors builds cunning.

All top fun, I envy you starting the journey!

I wouldn't drive away from the lakes to climb Yorkshire grit at this time of year, unless it's bouldering at Almscliffe or wherever. I know this is when hard stuff gets done, which I don't tend to see as I'm indoors keeping warm (or on my bike or surfing. Maybe I'm just soft. No maybe about it.)

You'd be driving past Giggleswick South, which has doable sport if Yorkshire slimestone's something you want to check out.

What I would do is get a boudering mat and increase your technical ability, confidence and strength on your local boulders.

When well within your grade there's objectively no more risk of your feet or hands coming off than letting go of the handlebars on a fast MTB descent

Definitely a good way to look at it, but don't forget that conditions can play a huge part in this. My apprenticeship was served on Peak District grit so I was relatively confident at slab climbing and crack climbing (conversely I was appalling on steep limestone; proper weakling!). Slabs can get a lot harder a lot quicker in the rain than cracks, which can often still be tackled even when wet.

I remember a horror at Etive Slabs when the beautifully dry day and great friction quickly turned to an impossibly slippy final slab pitch in only light rain. I tried socks over my boots and even started planning my downward retreat before asking the party above to throw a top rope down to us. As anyone who has climbed at Etive will know, you want total confidence that your feet are going to stick to the rock with some of those run-outs!

Not my photo
[img] [/img]

On my first climbing trip to Scotland we had a day at Etive. My mate was into doing the Hard Rock routes so we set off on Swastika. The crux is going over an overlap like one of those in the photo (due to the low angle of the slabs they aren't proper overhangs unless they are more than about 2 metres). My lead - put gear in above the overlap then make the hard move to stand in a horizontal crack, then walk along the crack for about 20 metres just above the lip of the overlap. Mate comes to follow, takes the gear out and is now looking at a *huge* swing if he fluffs it! Fortunately he didn't otherwise it would have been messy.