[Closed] Tough morning - need to share. Some of the content is graphic.

A horrible experience.

Sounds like you did everything that you could and everything that an experienced and competent first aider would have done in your place.

You kept him going until the medics arrived and remained calm.

You have nothing to feel bad about.

You did the right thing and acted. Many people would not have done and would have waited for someone else to take action. Sounds like CPR wouldn't have helped anyway with a bleed that big.

You did the right thing.

I am not a medic but it does rather sound as if he was in a bad way both from the original issue and the head trauma. So probably not a lot you could've done. But anyway - you're not a paramedic.

You stepped in though which is about as much as anyone could have asked. I hold you in high esteem for that.

Traumatic and it will stay with you as an experience but you have nothing to berate yourself about how you behaved.

Common response to a situation like that mate. He was dead before the CPR, what you were trying for was a miracle, don't be surprised that it didn't happen.

Agreed, all anyone can do is their best at the time. Sounds to me like you responded quickly and with compassion. You did the best you could, which sounds amazing anyway. Sounds unlikely he would've survived, so be proud that you were there to help when he needed it. Well done...

You were calm, got involved and did what you could. You did the right thing.
Don't feel bad.

Jesus mate, sorry to hear that. As everyone is saying it sounds like you did everything you could. Nothing to be embarassed about.
There'll be people who did nothing or just took a photo on their phone, you actually tried to help.

Well done for trying. That’s all anyone can do.

I’ve just found out that he has died.

Given what you described I can't see that a good outcome was likely. A similar thing happened to me at a station, fortunately the head injury to the chap was mostly superficial and once he regained consciousness he was quite lucid. I suspect he had concussion but was able to stand by the time the paramedic arrived.

Sounds like you need to sit down and talk it out with a good pal. You didn't do anything wrong.

If I was the poor man's relative, I would be thankful that you were there, and that someone cared enough for him to do what you did.

So, not that I have the right, but I'm sure I speak for a lot of us on here simply by saying 'thank you'.

OP, you did your best to save a man's life: I take my hat off to you.

As an aside, I was in a similar situation a few years ago. The difference was that a doctor and nurse were there, and they immediately started CPR. Sadly, the outcome was the same, and I was told later that despite what you see on TV, in these situations it's long odds on the victim surviving, regardless of the care they get.

I just kept pressing and talking to him, holding his head and telling him it was going to be OK

Either he was gone straight away and knew nothing, or the last words he heard was the kind voice of another person.

You should take comfort from that, and pride that you did all you could in difficult circumstances.

I'm sure I speak for a lot of us on here simply by saying 'thank you'.

+1

Acts like this are what's good in the world.

Well done for stepping in and doing your best. That was all anyone could have expected from you.
You will never know, but from your description it sounds like he might not have made it even if he had collapsed in front of A&E and had doctors on the scene immediately.

while you have to try CPR, from your description, it doesn't sound like it would have worked if you had started immediately... and *apologies* there is little point jumping up and down on the blokes chest if all you are doing is pushing his blood out through his head.

you have done all you can, don't beat yourself up that you couldn't save him.

As Yak said..

You were calm, got involved and did what you could.

but my lack of knowledge let him down I think.

He was probably dead when he hit the ground. CPR isn't the miracle cure people think it is (although obviously better than doing nothing).

In the UK fewer than 10% of all the people in whom a resuscitation attempt is made outside hospital survive.

https://www.resus.org.uk/faqs/faqs-cpr/

You still did more than most could or would have.

That's horrific, for everyone there and the poor chap's family and friends - you did everything you could, +1 on the thank you.

I’m sorry. I hope that if I ever encounter a situation like that that I am able to respond as you did.

Sounds like you've done all the right things, fair play to you. A lot of people would have looked on worriedly and not acted.
I also think you're taking the end result very positivly and I respect you for that as well.
I used to do a lot of first aiding via St Johns, I recall a harrowing training session where one of the old hands (instructor) came in and asked who thought they could save a life if they needed to. Several of us put our hands up to say yes, we think we have enough skills. He responded by saying that 4 hours earlier he would have said the same, but that someone who he was attending to earlier and giving CPR had died all the same.
What I'm trying to say is don't get guilt because you hadn't already done a course, it sounds like there was quite literally nothing you could do to help this poor guy.
Head up and keep talking.

This is the part that’s hard; I feel I should have known sooner that we should be doing CPR but he was bleeding so profusely that all my attention was focused on trying to stem that.

Dont beat yourself up over it, even health care professionals sometimes forget what they're taught, in the heat of the moment its easy to fixate on what you can see (in this case profuse bleeding) rather than the underlying issue (the lack of pulse)...i've seen paramedics, nurses and doctors all lose the plot slightly in this situation...its just inexperience, nobody would expect you to be slick and covering all bases in that situation because you're not exposed to it frequently enough.

The ideal would be if he'd collapsed in the presence of two or more HCPs, one could have treated the bleeding, one could have started chest compressions and increasingly now in critical care situation we like to have one HCP hanging back and observing in a detached objective fashion and keeping things on track and making sure certain protocols are followed...the chances of that happening is rare unless you collapse in hospital or in the back of an ambulance.

Anyway, from what you're saying he could have had a heart attack/MI first and then cracked his head on the ground causing a cerebral bleed next...with those two happening concurrently he had very little chance sadly.

Gee, well done, you did what you could. Don't try and second guess your actions. I've done a proper first aid course and I'm not sure I could have done any better given the situation.

Nothing to feel hard/disappointed about, you got stuck in and tried your best! I'm sure that the casualties family can take some comfort in knowing that an attempt was made to save his life and that he was not alone.

Kudos for getting involved.

**** me mate, thats quite an experience.

I went through something similar a few years ago, as did my brother in law (seperate incident)- and over a bottle of whisky every year or so we talk about how we feel, about what happened, how we blame ourselves when that is not fair and generally just get it off our chests. Helps massively. We were both really shaken by the experiences for quite a long time afterwards.

So - you did more than almost anyone else save for a trained professional, the outcome was out of your hands.

Now, find someone and go and talk about it.

All the best to you mate, well done for doing what you did, and for writing it down.

Sounds like there was nothing more you could have done, don't beat yourself up about it.

Sounds like it could have been any number of things ie brain tumour etc.

Paramedics are taught to do CPR/try and preserve life. Mrs FD normally receives people at the hospital and she says that most of the time working on the person was the wrong thing to do but that's just what paramedics have to do.

Speaking about it is good though. Its a traumatic experience. Maybe speak to someone close to you about it as well.

Top kudos to you though many people wouldn't do what you did, and as above I am sure his family will be delighted that you at least tried to help him.

You had a go at saving someone's life... World is a better place because of people like you.

Many wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Sheesh. That's a tough one. Well done. There really isn't much more you could have done. The last time I did a first aid course they were very, very clear that CPR can potentially buy a little time, but more often than not it's forestalling the inevitable. Don't be hard on yourself.

My former partner collapsed at work in a hospital surrounded by medically trained staff and even in that environment several of her colleagues initially froze, fortunately someone sprung into action and took over until others managed to compose themselves. That's no failing on their part they were shocked to see someone they know collapse unexpectedly and reacted the way most people probably would.

It sounds like you did your best and for that you deserve massive credit, you really shouldn't beat yourself up about the 'what ifs'. I doubt many people would have managed much better and it may be that this poor mans fate was sealed the moment he hit the ground.

Well done for trying, geetee. Sounds like he was in a bad way right from the beginning.

(Also I'd guess that very heavy bleeding for any length of time implies some circulation anyway and if so, chest compression wouldn't be relevant)

Take care of yourself, now - that's a lot of stuff for you to deal with after the event.

Sounds like you made a really good effort there, you should be happy with how you reacted in a challenging situation.

Never any harm in a bit of first-aid training, but don't kid yourself it would have made any difference this time. You're not a miracle worker, not even a pro emergency responder with a full load of kit.

Oh mate that's terrible. Sounds like what you did was all that anyone could have done. Talking about it is a good thing to do to allow you to process it all.

Thinking of you (and that poor fella clearly) mate.

well done you. I'm guessing writing it down is cathartic.

have you thought about contacting any family of his? they might find it helpful to chat through his last moments.

Sounds like you did all that could be expected of anyone to be honest, good on you for posting it on here and at leats "talking" about it, even if it's only to a bunch of strangers on a forum.

I've done a few first aid courses and one comment that stood out (which I was reminded of by your comment about starting CPR) is that there's no point doing CPR if there's a massive haemorrhage cos all you're doing is helping the blood leave the body!

Keep the red stuff inside
Then make sure the heart is pumping it round (CPR)

Exact words of a paramedic on a course I did a couple of years ago.

Well done for not freezing or panicking, you did the right things and there's no point second-guessing, it sounds pretty likely he had no chance, sadly.

I've been in a similar situation - it didn't affect me much, but I did need to have a quiet think about what happened. then I did a CPR/defib course.

You did more than many would. I did a 3 day First aid course, basic idea now is that you don't check for a pulse...time can be wasted, especially if, like in this case, there is a big bleed and any pulse is likely to be very weak. You start CPR when you determine they are not breathing.

If there is a bleed, try to stop it...I can't remember if I was told which was more important, but I suspect you were correct to try and stop the bleed first, there is not much point doing CPR if they are losing a huge amount of blood so best to briefly attempt to stem the flow first.

The other bit of advice was to send someone to find a defib machine, and set it up (apply the pads) to the patient as it will monitor them. Often it won't shock, but will tell you to continue CPR, or tell you if they have a pulse. They will only shock if the heart is in spasm/out of rhythm. If its stopped, it will just tell you to do CPR and beep at you to help do the compressions at the best speed.

Just to echo what others have said, you did as much as you could have and should feel proud of that. manhugs.

First, kind thought for the guy, his family, and espescially you. You did something, which is a million times more than a lot of people can do.

Don't feel too big or proud to not seek some sort of counselling. These things can resurface.

I Won't go into details, but some colleagues were involved in a similar situation. Those who took up the offer of counselling said they were very glad they did, those who didn't later wished they had.

Just to echo the above, thank you for actually getting involved and trying. Irrespective of the outcome, you tried to help and that is a big thing. I think that, in the same situation, I would have done the same thing. Catastrophic haemorrhage is the first thing on the CABC and it sounds like you were looking after the others as well when help arrived.

St. John have always told me that, if I find myself in your situation, I could talk to them. I would honestly recommend that you maybe do just that. Please don't try and rationalise this yourself.

It is highly likely that nothing anyone could have done would have made any difference. It sounds like you did everything you could, as did the professionals, and that is all that can ever be asked of anyone.

Very very well done you. You did more than most would and that does you great credit.

Don't be reluctant to ask for support if you need it. It can't be an easy thing to go through and PTSD etc are real risks.

Thanks guys your words are a real comfort. I'm going to call at his house on the way home (we were able to ascertain where he lived while trying to find contact details) and take some flowers round. I don't want to intrude but at the same time, I just want to tell his family that there were people there with him, that they cared, that they held his hand and tried to help him.

My wife lost her father to a heart attack but he wasn't found for two days and he was outside the house in the cold and the rain and that memory for her has always been very hard, which is why I'm minded to go and see his family.

^ You are a good man.

Either he was gone straight away and knew nothing, or the last words he heard was the kind voice of another person.

Fair play to you, you did all you could and should be proud of your actions and how you reacted.

You should be proud that you stepped up and reacted to an awful situation.
Many would freeze through fear.

If it wasn't for people like you I probably wouldn't be here now, so thank you again.

It sounds like there wasn't much more you could have done in that situation, but if it makes you feel better, go and seek out a first aid/CPR/defib training course, although it sounds like you are already proficient in dealing with events like this.

Nothing more I can add, if that man was a relative of mine I’d be so grateful that you stepped up

Well done

You stepped up when someone needed too. well done.
May I suggest a steady bike ride somewhere pleasant, followed by a tasty beer.
You did the right thing, take solace in that.

Nothing more I can add, if that man was a relative of mine I’d be so grateful that you stepped up

Well done

+ 1

Nothing but the greatest respect for what you did ..we would all like to think that under the same circumstances we could do the same ..but could we ?
Hope that in time you recover from the trauma .
The world's a better place with people like yourself in it ...please don't beat yourself up ..you tried.

What Houns says x1000.

It's difficult enough trying to assess someone who has an episode, even as a well trained first aider, but the natural reaction would be as you did, to focus on the bleeding. Even as a first aider of many years, I have hardly any real world experience (thankfully), I don't think for your average Joe it's ever easy, and there is always something you will feel you should have done.

Well done mate.

Geetee.

You can and will question what you did and didn't do. That's natural. But please don't beat yourself up about the outcome. You did respond, the vast majority of people don't.

The fact that trained paramedics tried for 45 minutes to resuscitate and didn't succeed shows that it was a lost cause from the get go. CPR rarely works on its own without the intervention of an AED and trained paramedics. It just gives the casualty a slightly better chance. If you had started CPR as he fell all you would have done is pump blood from his head wound out faster.

I'm impressed you did something. Go and speak to your doctor and ask for to speak to a councillor to get things in perspective. I've been in similar situations to you and it helped a lot.

It's the natural response when something doesn't work out to ask whether you could've done something differently that might've changed the result. You kept the guy going long enough for the pros to arrive, good work.

Houns - Member
Nothing more I can add, if that man was a relative of mine I’d be so grateful that you stepped up

Well done

Well said Houns, and well done Geetee.

Had a similar one to this. Driving with the ex-wife down a road in a fairly rundown bit of Manchester. Maybe 8pm and it was dark. Drove past bus stop and there's a guy just lying there. Initial reaction was that he was pissed/stoned, but something didn't look right so I stopped the car and jumped out. As I did this a cyclist and two people passed by without stopping. Ran over and he had a big gash on his forehead which was bleeding. At first thought he'd been mugged then realised he wasn't breathing. Started CPR and at that point a medical student who was cycling past stopped and took over. I ran to look for a phone (in hindsight don't know where my mobile was, maybe I had it and wasn't thinking straight) and the first side road I went past there was a first responder Ambulance car parked up! Grabbed him and he took over and very quickly there was an Ambulance there and they took him inside and spent 40 minutes or so trying to get resuscitate. Eventually one of the paramedics came back out and said they hadn't succeeded. Massive Cardiac arrest whilst jogging (we assume, he had joggers and a t-shirt on and keys, but no ID) and according to the para was probably dead before he had even hit the ground.

I did wonder for a time if I could have done more. With time I realised (as will the OP I hope) that the fact that I stopped was a lot more than many would have done and that whether or not I immediately gave him CPR wouldn't have made the blind bit of difference.

To echo the others I commend the OP on his actions and only wish that there were more like him

OP you sound so much more prepared than most of us could ever be, you were brave enough to step up when someone needed you, its extremely admirable.

Your feelings are understandable, natural, but you put in a sterling effort & thats all that anyone could ever do, It's almost impossible to feel like you did a good job with the outcome I'm sure.

As a few others have said, I was taught to stem the bleeding first - if you do CPR on someone with a severe bleed, you're just pumping oxygenated blood out of their body.

And I can't remember the exact figure, but it was something like a 7% success rate on CPR for someone in arrest, and that's for something potentially survivable which, to my pretty much totally untrained eye, doesn't sound like this chap was in any case.

Well done for stepping up.

but every now and then he gulped for air but he was like a fish drowning on a beach.

Oh yeah, this. This happens and people think "cool, a response / he's breathing" - nope. It's called agonal breathing / respiration and it's an automated response from deep in the brain stem when you're ****ed and just about dead. The way it was originally explained to me is that it's an evolutionary legacy back from when we were fishes that only comes out in this circumstance - it wasn't the guy clinging onto life and trying to breathe, it was the guy dying and his body not quite shut down 100% just yet. They're not actually effective breaths for a mammal living in air.

The specific reason our first aid trainer told us about this was for your kinda circumstance - people feel like they failed because "he was still breathing when I got to him" - no, he really, truly wasn't.

A similar thing happened to me a few years ago.
Chap almost screamed then fell over in the Co-op car park, dropping his dinner from his Greggs bag.
I thought he'd just slipped, so I turned away, as I was sure he'd be embarrassed with someone watching. After 15 seconds or so he was still down, so I went over, and his face was going purple.
Called 999, got the instructions on how to do CPR etc. Only one person in the assembled crowd would help. Ambulance arrived pretty quickly, maybe 5 minutes, they carried on for 40 minutes or so, but couldnt do anything. Ambulance Man told me he would have been dead as he hit the ground, they suspected a massive heart attack from which there would have been no recovery even if he was in a hospital.
I still felt shit about it and thought I should have done more.

Well done geetee.

If I was that chap I'd have been happy to go out in the care of a stranger acting as you did.

Horrible experience, but be proud that your instinctive reaction was to help a fellow human in their gravest moments.

Hats off.

You're a good person.

It's called agonal breathing

Everything I'm seeing is saying that agonal breathing is the most significant sign you should start CPR immediately.

If I ever see it again I know I will not hesitate to start CPR. I didn't recognise it for what it is and consequently didn't start CPR until the emergency call handler said we needed to but that was several minutes later.

Its sounds to me like you did everything you could at the time with what you had at the time.

Regardless of the outcome that is enough. Well done.

If it ever happens to me I hope you are around.

Sounds like you did great.
As we were told on various first aid courses, if you have to start cpr the person is already dead, you might bring them back but ultimately they were dead first

You sir are a top bloke.

thank you for doing what you did. I honestly don't know if I would have the presence of mind to deal with it.

I doubt he would have survived the injury you describe plus whatever was the original cause of the collapse even if he had collapsed in front of the A&E five a side team at the station. TV portrays cpr and defines as very effective - in fact even if you get a patient back into a proper rhythm the odds are still not in their favour for survival.

In this day and age, where many of us go around with virtual blinkers on, well done for responding and trying to help.

I'm not an officially trained first aider, but that ear bleed sounds like odds were against him pulling through.

Oh and ...

didn't start CPR until the emergency call handler said we needed to but that was several minutes later.

Having failed to save a cyclist who keeled over in front me (along with a nurse, we were two to stop and try to do something) it took a while for it to sink in that whatever I/we had done the guy was not going to live.

So expect some soul searching, we all hate being powerless or possibly having done/not done something, but your description says to me that the poor man was doomed from the instant he hit the deck, and maybe before - why did he fall?

An oldie, but a goodie - I've never seen a better example of agonal breathing, and a great result at the end. Every time I see this vid, it gets the goosebumps and shivers going.

[url=]

geetee

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You acted with the best possible intentions and you did everything in your power to help the chap. For that, you should be commended.

Most people in that situation would freeze and do nothing. You had the compassion and bravery to help in what sounds like an awful scenario.

I would also like to say thank you. I wish there were more people like you in this world.

And please don't punish yourself unnecessarily. I know, easier said than done...

That sounds like a truly horrible experience, and as others have said, not survivable. It sounds like he probably had a cardiac arrest before he fell and then that was further complicated by what sounds like a catastrophic head injury.

As a junior doc, I work on cardiac arrests in the hospital. They're always messy, some things are always done in the wrong order etc. And that's for a well-drilled team in a well-resourced setting. Fortunately I've never had to deal with anyone who's died outside a hospital but I imagine it's horrible.

Well done for trying.

Well done. You stayed calm, took control and acted.

When my clubmate crashed onto his head, I did the same - ordered two to block the road, another to call 999. I didn't initiate CPR immediately because he still had a strong pulse. Once the emergency services arrived I started CPR (Thank you Vinny - it really works), but in truth he was dead when he hit the ground. I suspect your man was similar.

Formal First Aid training gives you the confidence to take control, but the most likely outcome is still poor. Whatever you do, with the exception of motorcycle helmet removal, [b]you really can't make it any worse![/b]

Well done, again.

getee I think you did something truly heroic, don't be hard on yourself. It may sound glib but it is just life.

Nobeers got his links messed up; this is it:

You did good OP.

Many folk wouldn't. By what you say, there wasn't much anyone could have done.

Thanks spooky! Dunno what I did there...

Nothing to add other than you did what you could. Hope you're feeling a little better. Virtual hug from the family funk