Geetee, can you clarify what you mean about equal representation of gender roles?
Men and women regarded and represented fairly and equally with regard to the roles they play in society, culture and work.
You can find my website quite easily if you do a search.
I'm on spotify just now and getting mixed up listening to Tom Paley getting mixed up with this thread and thought id add to it. So many musicians to listen to
Men and women regarded and represented fairly and equally with regard to the roles they play in society, culture and work.
And what does this have to do with Tom Daley and his partner bringing up a child ?
An honest question, as earlier you tried to make it sound like it was relevant, but so far, I still don’t know how or why you think it is.
And what does this have to do with Tom Daley and his partner bringing up a child ?
An honest question, as earlier you tried to make it sound like it was relevant, but so far, I still don’t know how or why you think it is.
Well less to do with them specifically and more to do with what the original OP was trying to debate, which is, how do we feel about surrogacy and what are those feelings based on. This might or might not apply to Daley and his husband since we don't know what their intention is, though I understand they have confirmed they have gone for surrogacy.
My point is that I feel strongly that as a society, we should regard the gender roles played by mothers and fathers as equally important and equally demanding of representation. That's not always possible for reasons beyond anyone's control but there are situaitons where it's contrived deliberately from the outset and I am deeply uncomfortable about that, about a situation where a child is brought into the world in a way that specifically engineers one of the biological parents out of the equation. That to me feels morally wrong.
But a situation where the surrogate mother is going to be actively involved with two gay dads in the child's life, or a sperm donnor dad similarly involved with a lesbian couple, well that to me seems like a wonderful idea. I also think that allowing same sex couples to adopt is also a joy and of course a single parent in the right circumstances.
As always with these things, it's the message we send out about the importance of these roles that is rmore relevant here than the specific instances.
My point is that I feel strongly that as a society, we should regard the gender roles played by mothers and fathers as equally important and equally demanding of representation.
So, just to clarify for me, from this and your earlier response, you only recognise 2 gender identities?
That is an improvement as he used to just recognise the male gender
So, just to clarify for me, from this and your earlier response, you only recognise 2 gender identities?
Ah I see what you mean, sorry I hadn't twigged that's what you were asking.
I recognise and respect that a very small number of people express something other than a binary presentation of gender. I don't know if this is biologically absolute, i.e. that genetically speaking there does exist a 'third gender' or if it's more the product of the individual's cognitive experience of their biology but I don't think that matters since it's the person's exerience that we should respect (to a degree of course; there always exists the possiblity that the person's experience of themselves puts them within the boundaries of the DSM. You can't just unilaterally decide you're a butterfly and it be so).
But then I'm not sure what relevance non-binary gender has in a debate about the importance of gender equality in society? I guess you could start argue that we should stop worrying about gender altogether and as a society ignore it as irrelevant. That would be quite a progressive outcome that we shoiuld probably aim for but I think we're a long way off.
But then I’m not sure what relevance non-binary gender has in a debate about the importance of gender equality in society? I guess you could start argue that we should stop worrying about gender altogether and as a society ignore it as irrelevant.
The issue us if you see gender as binary, then you can see male and female behaviour (no matter the sex of the person). The idea of 'things girls do' or 'things boys do' really seems quite dated nowadays.
If, in fact you see gender as a diversity of identities, without polarisation, so not even a spectrum. Then the idea of equal representation is meaningless. It's like asking for equal representation if personality. Gender is not a simple unitary concept. And it is not just a very small number of people who see it that way. Once you recognise gender for what it is, the idea of maternal or paternal roles become meaningless. The way in which you are a 'man' to your kids might be very different to the way in which I am a 'man' to my kids and there might be huge overlaps between those behaviours and the behaviours of their mothers, your 'male/female roles' might be orthogonal to mine. It's just people.
a child is brought into the world in a way that specifically engineers one of the biological parents out of the equation.
In the UK, a surrogate mother is always treated as the legal mother of the child, also she has the right (regardless of any any contracts, which aren't recognised) to keep the child regardless of her biological relationship to the child.
.....in a debate about the importance of gender equality in society?
just so you know.
That isn’t what we were actually debating until you turned up.
The issue us if you see gender as binary, then you can see male and female behaviour (no matter the sex of the person). The idea of ‘things girls do’ or ‘things boys do’ really seems quite dated nowadays.
If, in fact you see gender as a diversity of identities, without polarisation, so not even a spectrum. Then the idea of equal representation is meaningless. It’s like asking for equal representation if personality. Gender is not a simple unitary concept. And it is not just a very small number of people who see it that way. Once you recognise gender for what it is, the idea of maternal or paternal roles become meaningless. The way in which you are a ‘man’ to your kids might be very different to the way in which I am a ‘man’ to my kids and there might be huge overlaps between those behaviours and the behaviours of their mothers, your ‘male/female roles’ might be orthogonal to mine. It’s just people.
This is really well put and I actually find myself agreeing with what you've said. As long as we have equality of opportunity we shouldn't worry about equality of outcome and trying to engineer a situation where all genders are represented equally in all aspects of society, work or culture is a nonsense.
That isn’t what we were actually debating until you turned up.
Yes it was. Read above. It's all connected.
true, but not so with sexestrying to engineer a situation where all genders are represented equally in all aspects of society, work or culture is a nonsense.
I struggle with long sentences.
Have any of you, amongst all the hyperbole, mentioned that so long as a child receives love and meaningful attention from their 'parents', be they biological or otherwise, then there is every chance they will grow with a fully developed emotional intelligence?
A simple yes or no will suffice, thank you.
A lot of people have said that and only people with their own agenda seem to be making a'debate' of anything
Have any of you, amongst all the hyperbole, mentioned that so long as a child receives love and meaningful attention from their ‘parents’, be they biological or otherwise, then there is every chance they will grow with a fully developed emotional intelligence?
I think we have, unfortunately, chance is all there is and their circumstances prior to that love and attention have a massive impact on those chances.
I struggle with long sentences.
Have any of you, amongst all the hyperbole, mentioned.... etc.
Yes.
Try reading the thread maybe ?
Gender has no bearing on good parenting by the way.
No quite right, it doesn’t. But it is still important, wherever possible, to have both the paternal/masculine and maternal/feminine roles equally represented.
Still not seen anything, other than your opinion, that suggests this is correct.
Have you you found anything yet ?