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Too many permits + too many trying to summit too late + resulting queue to get back down =
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18142900
I'm surprised this is news though.
The article says 1 in 10 die while climbing Everest. 300 permits have been issued. We should expect 30 of them to come back dead. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) this has happened to 3 of them but its not really news.
I'm surprised this is news though.The article says 1 in 10 die while climbing Everest. 300 permits have been issued. We should expect 30 of them to come back dead. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) this has happened to 3 of them but its not really news.
This.
1 in 10 is bs, even historically. About 4000 ascents since 2000, 54 fatalities
By the end of the 2010 climbing season, there had been 5,104 ascents to the summit by about 3,142 individuals. 80% of these ascents took place since 2000. In 2007, the record number of 633 ascents has been recorded, by 350 climbers and 253 sherpas.[58]
A remarkable illustration of the explosion of popularity of Everest is provided by the numbers of daily ascents. As mentioned below, the 1996 disaster was partly blamed on the number of climbers (33 to 36) attempting to summit on the same day; this was considered unusually high at the time. By comparison, on 23 May 2010, the summit of Mount Everest was reached by 169 climbers.[58]
Nearly all attempts at the summit are done using one of the two main routes. The traffic seen by each route varies from year to year. In 2005–07, more than half of all climbers elected to use the more challenging, but cheaper northeast route. In 2008, the northeast route was closed by the Chinese government for entire climbing season, and the only people able to reach the summit from the north that year were athletes responsible for carrying the Olympic torch for the 2008 Summer Olympics.[71] The route was closed to foreigners once again in 2009 in the run-up to the 50th anniversary of the Dalai Lama's exile.[72] These closures led to declining interest in the north route, and, in 2010, two thirds of the climbers reached the summit from the south.[58]
There were 219 fatalities recorded on Mount Everest since the 1922 British Mount Everest Expedition through the end of 2010. 54 of these occurred after 2000: 33 on the northeast ridge, 17 on the southeast ridge, 2 on southwest face, and 2 on north face.[58]
Those mountains of the mind are not so easily attained.
A study published in the British Medical Journal in 2006 stated that, on average, there had been one death for every 10 successful attempts to scale Mt Everest.The mountain's worst-ever climbing season was in 1996, when 15 climbers died, eight of them in one day.
The article says 1 in 10 die while climbing Everest. 300 permits have been issued. We should expect 30 of them to come back dead. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) this has happened to 3 of them but its not really news.
Does not comupte? 300 * 0.1 > 15 ?
I notice 2 Nepalis died last week, but they don't seem as newsworthy as paying customers, bit like the Alan Davies joke about the bees.
read this
[url= http://www.nowaydownthebook.com/ ]No Way Down[/url]
great read and very sobering, kinda made me want to give it a go though for some reason?
it says 1 death for every 10 SUCCESSFUL attempts.
i.e. if they issue 300 permits, but only 10 of them succeed, you'd expect 1 death.
Misleading statistic.
There is no gain to these people ascending the mountain, same as surfers getting attacked by sharks in "shark infested waters" if you put yourself in harms way...
[url= http://www.buzzfeed.com/toddvanluling/dead-bodies-on-mount-everest ]scary, just down right scary...[/url]
There is no gain to these people ascending the mountain
Really? Who are you to say that?
The guy who put me through my ML has summited. He said that there are lots of companies in Eastern Europe who will take you up for a large fee.They also have a bonus for getting you there...All without asking any questions about ability,experience etc. I trekked to base camp in 2004, the size of the graveyard there is rather sobering.As are the headaches...
FTFYduckman - Member
The guy who put me through my ML has summited. He said that there are lots of companies[s] in Eastern Europe[/s] who will take you up for a large fee.They also have a bonus for getting you there...All without asking any questions about ability,experience etc.
I'd guess its news because 3 (probably 5 actually) people dying on one day in relatively good weather is unusual, even for Everest.I'm surprised this is news though.
Actually thats not what it says, it says 1 person dies for every 10 successful attempts on the summit. it doesn't say how many people are in each group attempting the summit. The report it refers to actually puts the mortality rate at 1.3% for all climbers since the 1920s.
The article says 1 in 10 die while climbing Everest. 300 permits have been issued. We should expect 30 of them to come back dead. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) this has happened to 3 of them but its not really news.
As on old-fuddy duddy and ex-climber, the whole Everest things makes me sad. In Nepalese culture, Everest is a sacred place. And what has it become now - a rubbish tip, a way to make money, a trail of fixed ropes and dead bodies? Is this what mountainering is about? Leaving people to die on the mountain sums up the whole sad, recent history.
My youth was dominated by the arrival of Bonington's seige tactics on S Face of Annapurna and SW Face of Everest. Amazing examples of logisitical planning and technical climbing. But I was relieved when the philosophy changed to more self sufficient attempts eg Ogre epic etc. But now it seems wrong somehow.
Since people have been carried down recently any party who leaves an individual to die needs to take a long hard look at themselves. It is now inexcusable to leave someone to die if you are in a group. IMHO
Sandwich - Member
Since people have been carried down recently any party who leaves an individual to die needs to take a long hard look at themselves. It is now inexcusable to leave someone to die if you are in a group. IMHO
Next time you are on Everest in those circumstances i will email you this thread, you have no idea, you really dont.
Steve, genuinely interested in the development of your argument. Are you saying that the circumstances on Everest mean that compassion for other mountaineers should/can be suspended?
Since people have been carried down recently any party who leaves an individual to die needs to take a long hard look at themselves. It is now inexcusable to leave someone to die if you are in a group. IMHO
Not even if it's TJ suffering from a head injury?
Steve, genuinely interested in the development of your argument. Are you saying that the circumstances on Everest mean that compassion for other mountaineers should/can be suspended?
I think the general principal (and it's been done to death on here every time someone dies on Evrest) is that if conditions are bad enough for one person to die, then staying with them just results in even more bodies on the mountain.
Yes, there is always a judgement call to make re helping someone and endangering others. But I get the 'feeling' that there is a summit-at-all-costs mentality that is different to mountaineering in the 1970-2000s (perhaps?).
I think what Steve means is that for most humans, just climbing and getting back off Everest is at the very limit of human performance. To try and drag someone who is in deep trouble of the mountain could very likely result in your own death too. Harsh but true.
It's not purely a question of self-preservation though is it. If you are ill-equipped/skilled to carry out a rescue then by trying to help you are potentially endangering not only yourself but others who might feel compelled to try and rescue you in turn.
I do agree about Everest generally though - seems a very sad state of affairs and not at all what appeals to me about mountaineering.
Next time you are on Everest in those circumstances i will email you this thread, you have no idea, you really dont.
Steve, genuinely interested in the development of your argument. Are you saying that the circumstances on Everest mean that compassion for other mountaineers should/can be suspended?
Anyone who ascends everest knows the risk that they or someone else may get left behind to die. It's for this reason alone that I hold those climbing Everest in utter contempt.
Yet these people seem to be able to live with themselves in the knowledge that through achieving their own personal goal, they had to walk by the bodies of those dead and dying.
The best Everest book, no question.
Mental how they got up there with the equipment they had back in the 1920s.
Leaving people to die on the mountain sums up the whole sad, recent history.
It is sad but the reality is that most people can only just get themselves down, let alone carry some one else. In 1996 Rob Hall stayed to help (client) Doug Hansen and died up there with him. Andy Harris who went up to assist them also died, probably falling off the Lhotse face. Everyone who goes up there knows if they cant get down on their own they are likely to be left for dead.
Yet these people seem to be able to live with themselves in the knowledge that through achieving their own personal goal, they had to walk by the bodies of those dead and dying.
Despite it being a childhood dream, that's exactly why I now have no desire to now climb Everest.
When I was learning to climb and then teaching climbing to cadets, the most important lesson that I learned and taught was that the best mountaineer (as opposed to technical climber) was the person who knew when to turn back. I "feel' that this concept has long gone. Time to put my hemp, clinkers, tweed and kendal mint cake back in the loft - oh and the 70s balaclava, joe brown rucksac and belstaff smock (if only those still existed!!)
Yet these people seem to be able to live with themselves in the knowledge that through achieving their own personal goal, they had to walk by the bodies of those dead and dying.
You are Joe Simpson and I claim my £5!
Whatever their motives are its a cold and lonely place to die and far too easy to judge others whilst sat in front of a computer. The mountains are stangely addictive and despite meeting lots of knobbish trekking groups in Nepal it is awe inspiring and the Nepalese are amazing. If you were willing to pay for me to join an expedition I'd go back quite happily. I'd say knowing when to turn back is the ultimate skill which can be very hard if you have put everything on the line for your one attempt. May they RIP.
Steve, genuinely interested in the development of your argument. Are you saying that the circumstances on Everest mean that compassion for other mountaineers should/can be suspended?
The reality in certain circumstances on Everest is that an attempt to bring down a severely debilitated climber who is unable to help him/herself could mean death for the other climbers involved.
Certainly the practice of climbing past an individual in trouble to continue your summit day would be reprehensible, but in extreme conditions, descending from a summit day, even a strong mountaineer might be flirting with the fine line between life and death themselves, and the decision to stay with an immobile and helpless colleague and inch them towards safety would mean two deaths rather than one.
There have been some incredible stories of rescues or attempted rescues over the years though. The book 'Into Thin Air' by Jon Krakauer describes one horrific situation quite well.
Anyone heading beyond 8000m, even with a guide attached, needs to understand that it doesn't take much more than a couple of bad rolls of the dice - bad weather, injury, illness - to put them in a place where their expensive guide cannot save them.
A mountaineering death thread is just not the same without that city dwelling know all telling us all about it (through his arse).
But I get the 'feeling' that there is a summit-at-all-costs mentality that is different to mountaineering in the 1970-2000s (perhaps?).
Ronald Naar? That was 20 years ago.
(Just a thought - not saying your wrong).
A mountaineering death thread is just not the same without that city dwelling know all telling us all about it (through his arse).
Slightly better than reading Joe Simpson's back catalogue - one interesting book about his accident and then 10 winging on about lack of ethics in high altitude climbing.....
I read this one on my trek to EBC and it was a bit of an eye opener.
"Where once climbers like Sir Edmund Hilary enjoyed noble and brave reputations, in the 21st century the criminal element has turned Everest into a place where beatings, thefts, drugs, prostitution, threats and abandonment reign"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Crimes-Fate-Everest-Greed/dp/1401302734
I think the stories of guided commercial 'climbers' obsessed with the summit (or perhaps more specifically the bragging rights) stepping over the dying during an ascent should be distinguished from a group of pro climbers in a life or death decision on the way down.
RIP and you can not hold it against those who are drawn/the lure to the challenge. Its most definitely not a motorway or handheld experience either.
I think like mountain biking there are too many high horses/snobbish/arrogance in every challenge/scene. Sad really.
RIP. You died attempting your biggest challenge.
Next time you are on Everest in those circumstances i will email you this thread, you have no idea, you really dont
except people like anatoli boukreev will go back multiple times and rescue injured climbers in a horrific storms (after summiting without the use of oxygen themselves) and still come under attack by clowns like john krakauer.
after summiting without the use of oxygen themselves
I think that was one of the main criticisms leveled at him by Krakauer i.e. why take additional unnecessary risk when you are responsible for the wellbeing of others.
clowns like john krakauer.
have you read the book?
yeh he's an idiot that did himself no favours what so ever with the personal attack on anatoli given that by his own admission he was in and out of an exhausted slumber unable to assist at all and yet with eagle eyed hindsight after the event saw fit to criticise a brilliant and brave mountaineer.
I think joe simpsons take on it was a far more balanced and reasoned.
More disturbing is the piss poor treatment of porters and staff by western tourists on guided climbs where there have been (thankfully rare) instances of "sherpas" being left to die because westerners would be late for their flights home if stopped to help.
Haven't read Simpson's. Will dig it out.
The main thing I got from the book was that the lack of empathy to fellow climbers has as much to do with basic human psychology than anything particular to mountaineering. Time and again, human history and psychological studies and have shown that if you put people in an environment where they have an authority figure and instructions to obey, they will do things that ordinarily their morals wouldn't allow. e.g. holocaust, scientist/volunteer/electric shock/actor in the next room screaming
Anyone who's been guided doing anything remotely risky (off-piste skiing, canyoning, climbing) will probably have experienced to some extent, the ever-present, all-overriding instruction to always do what your guide tells you to do. The riskier the situation, the greater the reliance on the guide, the more important that instruction becomes
On Rob Hall's trips, anyone not following orders would be grounded at Base camp for the remainder of the trip (or sent back down the valley- can't remember). You can see from the leader's point of view, safety is paramount, for his clients, and his employees, he needs to control the environment as much as possible. He needs to know where people are based on what they've been told and can't afford the uncertainty of someone thinking for themselves.
Trouble is, as Krakauer points out, if you're drilled to value instructions over instincts, dis-empowered to act on your instincts, you stop listening to them. He reckons that if he had been on this expedition as part of a team of peers, it's likely he'd have acted on several signs he ignored on Everest. I'm inclined to believe him, whether he's trying to use it as an excuse or an explanation for his part, and no matter how much difference it might have made.
Trouble is, as Krakauer points out, if you're drilled to value instructions over instincts, dis-empowered to act on your instincts, you stop listening to them
I agree, I think, personally that's why high mountains should only be climbed, alpine style by those with the skill and experience to do so.
just because you can pay for someone to drag you up a mountain does not make you a climber or a mountaineer. This is particularly evident when guide companies push their luck as they need results to get new customers and if something happens to the guide the punters don't have the skills to help themselves or anyone else.
[img] 
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Kinda draws you in eh?
I agree, I think, personally that's why high mountains should only be climbed, alpine style by those with the skill and experience to do so.just because you can pay for someone to drag you up a mountain does not make you a climber or a mountaineer. This is particularly evident when guide companies push their luck as they need results to get new customers and if something happens to the guide the punters don't have the skills to help themselves or anyone else.
Totally agree. Been on guided trips before and don't like the detachment. They've been good, but the sense of involvement in the environment and the sense of fulfillment from the experience is dulled massively.
I remain agog at Reinhold Messner's 1980 solo alpine ascent from the Tibetan side. And Jacob Kropp's cycle with all his kit from his home in Sweden, to the top and back, solo. Amazing.
Edit: Goran Kropp
I think that was one of the main criticisms leveled at him by Krakauer i.e. why take additional unnecessary risk when you are responsible for the wellbeing of others.
It was.
In Boukreev's book he explained why [i]he[/i] considered [i]him[/i] not using it to be more prudent.
What,he rode to the top 😀
I reckon Mallory went for the couloir route (aka Messner's route up the Norton Couloir). The whole second step thing is a red herring.
What,he rode to the top
Goran Kropp was proper hard!
[img] 
[/img]
Imagine riding your bike 7,000 miles to Nepal, carrying a year's supply of gear and food. Next, think about carrying 143 pounds, unassisted, up to Everest Base Camp. Now picture yourself climbing the world's tallest mountain alone, completely self contained, without the help of Sherpas and without bottled oxygen. Sound impossible? It isn't. In May of 1996, a Swedish mountaineer named Göran Kropp accomplished just that. Then he packed his gear and biked back home.
I agree, I think, personally that's why high mountains should only be climbed, alpine style by those with the skill and experience to do so.just because you can pay for someone to drag you up a mountain does not make you a climber or a mountaineer. This is particularly evident when guide companies push their luck as they need results to get new customers and if something happens to the guide the punters don't have the skills to help themselves or anyone else.
I somewhat agree, but I don't think commercial expeds are inherently shonky. It's not been mentioned yet, but last week Russell Brice pulled the plug for the entire season before anyone had even left base camp - his sherpas were scared due to how warm it was and had already had some close calls in the ice fall. No refunds, and I don't think anyone can fairly level a bad word at him for it.
What tyres...
Next time you are on Everest in those circumstances i will email you this thread, you have no idea, you really dont.
Whatever.
That is amazing, respect!
Misplaced post. Should have gone in some way above. Timed out of relevance!
In 1996 Rob Hall stayed to help (client) Doug Hansen and died up there with him. Andy Harris who went up to assist them also died, probably falling off the Lhotse face.
Perhaps. Although if you believe the "facts" that Graham Ratcliffe presents, then Hall was happy to risk the lives of others for the benefit of himself and his clients.
I'm not taking any side here, just highlighting what might be another indication of where commerical exploitation of Everest has landed those who wish to climb it.
I suspect that the commercial climbing companies have cleaned up their act a bit since the events refferd to in 1996.
David Sharp, 2006?
Fair enough TGA
Certainly sounds a bad story.
One of the issues might be that if you are well equipped you would spend all your time helping others and not be able to make a summit attempt yourself.
Its not good tho is it.
Everest is a perfect example of why Royal Marines are nails. 7,800 metre rescue....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/may/23/everest.nepal
nedrapier - Memberclowns like john krakauer.
have you read the book?
Posted 17 hours ago # Report-Post
I have read his books,Krakauer seems to overlook the fact that HIS clients not Boukreev's died.There is also, in the context of his much vaulted early off the top philosophy the following;
On his way down Everest, Krakauer found an ill Beck Weathers on the mountain, before the storm and before Weathers was frostbitten.[6] Weathers, who suffered frostbite and several amputations, has said, "I told Jon that I really couldn't see very well and that I needed to descend, and might need him to downclimb close enough to be my eyes."[7] Weathers said Krakauer responded "Beck, I'm not a guide."[8]
A mate summited Everest in 2007 with a British Army climbing team - he was an SF reservist at the time.
Fair play to him, I'd have struggled to get to base camp!
Went to see a talk given by Conan Harrod in Manchester a few years ago.
Broke his leg 250m from the summit, helped down by fellow clmbers.
A very lucky man - worth booking for an after dinner talk if you want to hear a very remarkable story.
Details of the rescue and accident here:
[url= http://homepage.ntlworld.com/conan.harrod/2003expo.htm ]Linky. [/url]
Some pics:
[img] 
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[img] 
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The links you guys posted about the Royal Marine rescue and Conan Harrod are in relation to the same event 🙂
Pretty heartwarming stuff.
Those rescue reports are a shining beacon of awesomeness.
Gotta love the chipper military attitude.
In 1996 Boukreev also stepped over Beck and left him for dead; leaving Neal Beidleman to bring him down with Mike Groom and Yasuko Namba - along with the rest of his group. If Boukreev had stopped to help maybe they would have made faster progress and got to camp before dark. Instead they spent the night 300 yards away after failing to locate the camp and Namba died and Beck was (for the second time) left for dead.
Boukreev heroically made 2 successful rescue trips the next day, but too late for Namba and, so it was thought, Beck. Beck later walking into the camp on his own... where he was AGAIN left for dead, this time in a tent. Poor old Beck!!
Its what happens when things go wrong in places like that, decisions are made quickly and under very intense physical and psychological stress. Some times you save people some times you dont. Blaming anyone for what they did once the crisis unfolded is just plain wrong.
I read all the books i could find when i came back from trekking in Nepal. I wasn't on a base camp trip. The book i really enjoyed which covered the same time period was by Tenzing Norgay
Then he packed his gear and biked back home.
He only cycled some of the way back. Looser
allmountainventure - Member
I wasn't blaming him for decisions he made during the crisis,remember he kb'ed Beck before the crisis;That seems very callous to me, experienced;early in the afternoon,weather still fine. I was highlighting his actions to show contrast with what he writes about himself and other people and his own actions. I also think he had an axe to grind with Boukreev,and took the chance to do so.
I will never be in that situation thankfully so won't ever have to weigh up the pros and cons of aiding another climber. However if I had been,I wouldn't come down and then write about it in the manner he did.I mostly enjoyed his books, reading other people's accounts diminished my enjoyment of them a little.
where he was AGAIN left for dead, this time in a tent. Poor old Beck!!
I've read Beck Weathers' book which is called...wait for it....'Left for Dead'.
Boukreev's book is a bit more of a read though despite the rather obsessive theme of disputing Krakauer's version of events.
Surely its meant to be difficult, otherwise whats the point? The whole "I've climbed Everest" thing doesn't work if theres a Cafe on top and a rescue team having a fag up the South Col just waiting for a chance to flex their toned and bronzed muscles. That being the case deaths and casualties are part and parcel of the deal aren't they?
Incidentally, Edmund Hilarys trip was an commercial expedition, as they pretty much all are, (perhaps with the exception of Goran Kropp's bike assisted mullarkey).
In 1996 Boukreev also stepped over Beck and left him for dead
No, Weathers was (more or less) healthy at the time Boukreev made his descent. He had been told to stay put by Rob Hall and (in his own words) "that's exactly what I did."
Boukreev was a paid guide from a DIFFERENT expedition.
There was a picture and a short article in the Metro today about a 19yr old British girl who'd summitted very recently, she described walking past people dying, people who were so far gone they didn't even know there was anyone else there.
Nothing that could be done - do you stop and help someone who probably isn't going to survive and in doing so put your own life in danger or do you just walk past?
Sounded pretty horrific either way.