[Closed] Those striking Doctors,

At least they do something to help. What the **** to you do? Except air your warped prejudices on here?

Are you a member of the caring profession?

By comparison, a nurse on the median wage has a net contribution after tax relief (which due to the lower wage is therefore at the standard rate) of 5.2%

Nothing to add (except my own pay reducing in real terms year on year, and my pensions contributions increasing as a nurse on the median wage!)

but zulu, I grudgingly salute you: in the 12 hours theis thread has been up, you would seem to be the only one of the usual public-sector/srtike haterz to post on a thread with so many real doctors on it. At least 2 of the other [s]big hitterz[/s] 'regulars' have posted elsewhere on here last night and this morning and yet somehow missed this thread. 😀 ❓ 😆

Kit,

I'm not the one bleating about my pension!! If theyre doing because they love
the care aspect, then the fact that they should up their pension contributions should be a tiny (on those inflated wages) price to pay.

I served my country, but don't want/expect high praise for that. It was my job, I loved it and it's given me so many opportunities.

Nope they're not that special (like all of us) and don't deserve special treatment.

I think you will find if you speak to doctors that there are varying reasons for them taking industrial action. Obviously the action is ostensibly about pension, but many are using it as an opportunity to voice their dissatisfaction about the healthcare reforms, forced in by this government with very little/no support from the royal colleges. As I understand it a strike or action on the back if the healthcare reforms would have been deemed illegal as it would not have been over terms and conditions. I can certainly understand the general publics view that the doctors are paid well (we are) and that in these times of job losses and uncertainly we should be happy with what we have (we should), but the fact remains that the pension plan was renegotiated 4 years ago and agreed on then, the pension pot is in surplus and so no extra money from the government is required to maintain it, and most annoyingly MP's themselves and senior civil servants have not yet made any changes to their pensions, so leading by example is a phrase alien to them. There are certainly some rubbish and dangerous GP's, as there are rubbish and dangerous hospital doctors, nurses, solicitors, engineers etc etc, but there are also some very good ones who care for their patients, go the extra mile and work damn hard to ensure that they get the best care possibly available to them. This government is slowly instigating plans which will precipitate the privatization of the NHS, and they have been allowed to do this with very little public opposition, yet when a day of industrial action is planned by doctors trying make a stand against a hypocritical government everyone is up in arms.

Saxabar I refer you to my point about working additional hours for nothing above. I think everyone would agree that the out of ours GP work was a bit of a cock up.

It's a blind and angry race to the bottom to start comparing career paths, but as pointed out above other disciplines and careers require similar amounts of training and hardships. While I don't disagree that goal posts shouldn't be shifted nor agreements reneged upon, I still feel many in the medical profession have done well over the last ten years or so.

I served my country, but don't want/expect high praise for that.

Relieving pain and suffering ? Don't be so modest - you deserve praise.

I think you will find if you speak to doctors that there are varying reasons for them taking industrial action. Obviously the action is ostensibly about pension, but many are using it as an opportunity to voice their dissatisfaction about the healthcare reforms, forced in by this government with very little/no support from the royal colleges. As I understand it a strike or action on the back if the healthcare reforms would have been deemed illegal as it would not have been over terms and conditions. I can certainly understand the general publics view that the doctors are paid well (we are) and that in these times of job losses and uncertainly we should be happy with what we have (we should), but the fact remains that the pension plan was renegotiated 4 years ago and agreed on then, the pension pot is in surplus and so no extra money from the government is required to maintain it, and most annoyingly MP's themselves and senior civil servants have not yet made any changes to their pensions, so leading by example is a phrase alien to them. There are certainly some rubbish and dangerous GP's, as there are rubbish and dangerous hospital doctors, nurses, solicitors, engineers etc etc, but there are also some very good ones who care for their patients, go the extra mile and work damn hard to ensure that they get the best care possibly available to them. This government is slowly instigating plans which will precipitate the privatization of the NHS, and they have been allowed to do this with very little public opposition, yet when a day of industrial action is planned by doctors trying make a stand against a hypocritical government everyone is up in arms.

That.

mikertroid - Ok so you want doctors to be paid less and get a smaller pension.

What happens when very well educated people who would have previously decided to become doctors turn round and say sod that, why should I become a doctor when I can earn thousands more being a lawyer etc?

FunkyDunc - Member
Peterfile - I'd be very surprised if the senior partner in a law firm or architect practice earns the same or less than a hospital consultant, or will receive less income in retirement.
POSTED 15 MINUTES AGO #

I can tell you, working in Architecture, that salaries are nowhere near those of doctors. Architects need a minimum of 7 years training and would be very lucky to start on 27k after that. A typical project architect after 7 years of training and 10 years experience might be around 40-45k. To be getting to the 120k mark people are talking about for doctors would mean being very senior in a major practice, or owning a smaller practice. Average salary for an architect in the uk is around 50k, and that is mainly because a lot of architects take the financial risks involved in owning and running their own business. Salaried architects very rarely get over 50k.

What happens when very well educated people who would have previously decided to become doctors turn round and say sod that, why should I become a doctor when I can earn thousands more being a lawyer etc?

Maybe as the general public we will feel we have dodged a bullet. I understood that Doctors choose medicine as a career and a caring one at that, not simply an opportunity to become wealthy.
You also assume that lawyers (I know a few) do actually earn 000's more when in my experience it is is only the very few at the top of their profession who often work incredibly hard and sometimes take great risks.
As Hamish Meldrum was doing this morning you are making a generalisation based on a very small number of lawyers and expecting parity with them.
I would be interested in seeing the median salaries of both professions as I know of one solicitor who has also qualified as a barrister and he earns half the average salary of a doctor, I also have a friend who is now a judge after many years of practice as a barrister and he earns a little above it.

Fubkydunc: Hopefully only those that are competent and have a genuine flair will apply. Happy days!

Ernie: mwah! Why, thank you!!

Mind you, I know of several who've caused/worsened suffering..... Maybe performance tested pay and pensions should be introduced?

FunkyDunc - Member
Peterfile - I'd be very surprised if the senior partner in a law firm or architect practice earns the same or less than a hospital consultant, or will receive less income in retirement

Generally these are partnerships which don't really have pension schemes and employer contributions. In addition with very few exceptions they will have assumed unlimited liability as part of that partnership. Those are quite key differences. I'm a senior partner in a large firm and i debate this regularly with 2 medical friends I ride with.

The amount of BS spouted in this thread is quite fantatsic. Its quite telling that most of the rational, well thought through and balanced responses are from the actual doctors. And that is despite having to deal with the rest of the general public on a day to day basis!

But this really does take the biscuit.

but I don't see the more qualified vets or dentists bleating

If you actually think a vet or dentist is more qualified than your GP I sugest that next time you are felling a bit poorly you go see a vet, surely most of the major organs are fairly similar.

(For the interested you can become a vet in 5 years, to become a GP takes at least 10)

Jffletch,

Vets arrive out of college way more quelled than a doc. I'd happily see a vet (and have!) for my ailments.

Earnie - have a look around those working on a hospital ward or A&E - you may notice a few different uniforms with rank slides.

And that is despite having to deal with the rest of the general public on a day to day basis!

This is quite telling, especially when you consider that many of the unwashed poor dont say thank you!

Fletch,

By the way we're not in France and we're not discussing French doctors.

Vet training is 6 years min. You qualify as a surgeon!!!

I'd happily see a vet (and have!) for my ailments.

I bet they appreciate that : [i]"well actually it's about me I've come to see you......."[/i]

I guess the thermometer up the arse might make it worthwhile. And I suppose growling at any discomfort is acceptable.

What kind of country do you all want to live in.
This government are eroding the police pensions and conditions
Fire service pensions and conditions
Making soldiers redundant 8 days before their pension s are due
Eroding doctors pensions and conditions
Eroding teachers pay and conditions
All,these are professional roles that are essential in a balanced society, and if these people a unhappy, society suffers
Can't believe what I read from people on this forum, disrespecting doctors, soldiers etc, and trivialising the role they play in society.
These people are the backbone of society, it's not like they work in a job like IT where anyone can be trained up in a short time, they are highly trained professionals, who do,it for the love of the job

who do,it for the love of the job

Although it would appear not.

Labour were bad, but the Tories are in another league
Evil, selfish, spiteful , bastards

"Generally these are partnerships which don't really have pension schemes and employer contributions. In addition with very few exceptions they will have assumed unlimited liability as part of that partnership."

Ok so they may carry more personal risk through out their working life, through liability and no secured pension, but my point still stands that they will (probably) earn a load more in service and in retirement.

Miketroid - you keep going to see your vet if you like, it will help lower the costs to the NHS 😆

The following is a recent quote from a GP, taken from a medical website. It's in relation to the article in Saturday's Times by Matthew Parris and which caused a furore amongst the medics.

[i]It is quite clear to me that good GPs (and their practice teams) are a national treasure.[/i]

Ernie,

I don't think I'm in a position to divulge (medical in confidence and all that) but I'm having a right chuckle!!

CG.

Spot on! There aren't many!!

"who do,it for the love of the job

Although it would appear not."

I don't think they do it for the love of the job, I think they do it because they genuinely care and want to care for people, a rare quality in many people these days unfortunately. Mrs FD also finds her job very rewarding, some thing that I can not say for myself.

Peterfile - I'd be very surprised if the senior partner in a law firm or architect practice earns the same or less than a hospital consultant, or will receive less income in retirement.

I'm not sure how a hospital consultant is appointed, but to make senior partner at a big law firm, you've given up your life and are one of the most talented lawyers to have ever walked through the doors.

In my last firm, the Europe/Middle East/Africa senior partner was on about £1.2 (which is the average equity partner salary, no special pay for being senior partner).

I would have thought comparing just a regular salaried partner in a big law firm (about £200-300k) is more in line with a hospital consultant since they are still at the higher levels of their career, but there's lots of them and nothing hugely interesting to separate them (unlike senior partners and managing partners etc).

What happens when very well educated people who would have previously decided to become doctors turn round and say sod that, why should I become a doctor when I can earn thousands more being a lawyer etc?

As others have pointed out above, the figures for the legal profession vary massively. The figures you tend to see touted by the media are for global/US firms, and the vast majority of the legal profession in the UK does not work for global/US firms.

I''ve got lots of lawyer friends who will probably never earn more than the salary I qualified on at a US firm. No reflection on their ability, that's just what the market is like.

As far as I'm aware (please correct me otherwise), it wouldn't be too difficult for a good medic to land a £60-70k job within a few years of fully qualifying? The same can't be said for the legal profession. You've got to be good, sell your soul and secure a place against strong (and numerous) competition for salaries like that when you leave law school.

It's not common, and definitely not as common as most people think.

As for the legal version of a GP (we call them high street lawyers), the salaried ones will be unlikely to ever earn £60k in their career.

Big business is where the money is, but big business is not representative of what most lawyers do.

Well, I find that what I quoted above just reinforces my opinion of the arrogance that is displayed by some GPs.

As miketroid says, you can get better treatment from a vet. Certainly for my ongoing medical condition you can.

FWIW the 'pay versus responsibility and qualifications' was argued on here round about the time of the November public sector strikes, except this time it was how degree qualified posts in privateland pay more than teaching or nursing despite the obvious diaprity in stress, responsibility and indeed the likelihood that you might be both struck off and prosecuted for your acts or omissions.

There seems to be the same argument here today, but backwards about doctors. -ie "its not fair they get paid so much compared to an architect". Well, same except no one has mentioned the "struck off or prosecuted" bit yet. and the message from the righties last time this was discussed if i recall rightly was "some jobs just pay more than others, get over it".

If we are challenging that again now but the other way round, then I will have a pay rise that puts my job (nurse) just a few percent above the national average wage please. 😀

These people are the backbone of society, it's not like they work in a job like IT where anyone can be trained up in a short time, they are highly trained professionals, who do,it for the love of the job

Lets get this straight - none of these people are poorly paid.

Certain people need a reality check when they consider how well, or poorly, renumerated are for the job they do

The UK median wage is about 25k

Ok so they may carry more personal risk through out their working life, through liability and no secured pension, but my point still stands that they will (probably) earn a load more in service and in retirement.

And you have a problem with this why?

"you've given up your life and are one of the most talented lawyers to have ever walked through the doors."

Exactly the above. Mrs FD is in an 8 year training to be a consultant. They are continually reviewed and assessed, have to pass 3 sets of professional exams, can be prevented from progressing at any stage etc etc.

"I would have thought comparing just a regular salaried partner in a big law firm (about £200-300k) is more in line with a hospital consultant since they are still at the higher levels of their career, but there's lots of them and nothing hugely interesting to separate them (unlike senior partners and managing partners etc)."

A new consultant scale is roughly £80-£120k. Top NHS consultants can not really earn more than £150k. Mrs FD has 4 years of training left ie before she can start applying for consultant positions and she currently earns approx £50k and works roughly 65+ hours per week, but will then spend spare time either going in to work to improve her log book, or publishing papers/doing audits etc. I probably get to spend 1 in 4 weekends with Mrs FD, and even then she will do some work at some point.

She wants to be one of the best in the UK in her field but will never earn the somes of money you talk about.

Vets arrive out of college way more quelled than a doc. I'd happily see a vet (and have!) for my ailments

As miketroid says, you can get better treatment from a vet. Certainly for my ongoing medical condition you can.

I think these comments are just indicative of the lack of value we place on medical services in this country due to the fact we get it "free". Look how much doctors get paid in a private healthcare market such as the USA etc. And then look at the % of income people spend on healthcare and you may just realise what a fantastic deal we get here.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

Lets get this straight - none of these people are poorly paid.

Certain people need a reality check when they consider how well, or poorly, renumerated are for the job they do

The UK median wage is about 25k

Are you sure anyone has suggested that doctors have low paid jobs ?

Are you sure [i]you[/i] don't need a reality check Z-11 ?

BTW Z-11, I'm surprised that an old Tory stalwart like yourself should believe that people's remuneration should reflect more average wages. When did this sudden conversion occur ?

On the one hand it's hard to have too much sympathy as on the face of it they've already got a much more comfortable position than most of us will ever have.
But I'm uncomfortable with the underlying assumption that if people are relatively well off they should just be grateful for what they've got and shut up, when put in a position that the rest of us would probably feel quite justified about making a right song and dance about. Why should they?

And all this "they should do it for the love and not care about the pay" guff- how many people spouting that line a)like their job, and b) would do it "for the love"?

Fletch,

You're joking aren't you? No comparison between a vet and a medic, the former being a far more demanding course and vocation.

Its like the equivalent of comparing (in my industry) an EasyJet Captain (well qualled, five-six years of experience of undemanding flying) and a Tornado mate (4 years, far fewer hours but far more involved course and job). With a small amount of training the Tornado jockey can fly the airbus. The EasyJet Capt would need to start from scratch to fly the Tonka.

My overall point is there are many who've sacrificed as much to where they are, have received huge amounts of training, have done it for the love of the job/people/country but are paid far less and aren't bleating about it.

Some of these people are talented too, unlike many of GPs I, and sadly for them, my family and friends have dealt with!

The reason for the time to GP is anti litigation, less prevalent in animal medicine.

And all this "they should do it for the love and not care about the pay" guff- how many people spouting that line a)like their job, and b) would do it "for the love"?

Interesting straw man. I dont think anyone would deny qualified doctors a "far crack of the whip" in terms of pay, conditions and pensions. I think it is perfectly right for people to withold sympathy when they feel the pendelum has swung to far in their direction.

There seems to be the same argument here today, but backwards about doctors. -ie "its not fair they get paid so much compared to an architect". Well, same except no one has mentioned the "struck off or prosecuted" bit yet.

Arguably getting prosecuted or struck off is your own fault for not doing your job properly, although I can understand there are sometimes complicating circumstances. However, you can be struck off or prosecuted as an architect as well, and you're much more likely to be made redundant as huge numbers of practices go bust every recession, and you're much worse rewarded when you are in work. I think comparing any highly-trained profession to architecture is a bad idea, because architecture is not looking like a profession with a great future at the moment.

One point which was referred to earlier on - it has been on the record previously that a major stumbling block to privatising the nhs is doctors pensions.

A key aim of all this is to enable more privatisation of the nhs. This is in no way as silmple a problem as it seems.

Interestingly of I had children applying for university right now who could get into medical school I think I would tell them to do something else which seems a great shame. I would say the same regardless of whether the pension changed or not.

Interestingly of I had children applying for university right now who could get into medical school I think I would tell them to do something else which seems a great shame. I would say the same regardless of whether the pension changed or not.

I wouldnt. If I thought my offspring could become a doctor I would encourage them to. I cant think of a more rewarding career that would offer the same financial rewards and security.

Are you sure you are not just saying that for effect?

BTW what would you encourage them to do?

No, I don't accept that we have a fantastic deal here! Perhaps some GPs could enlighten us and this is a serious request. For example, I'm sure years ago that GPs were not sat in their surgery Monday to Friday seeing patients, did they not visit hospitals as part of on-going training? Learning about new techniques, procedures etc that would assist them in making a diagnosis/understanding more?

From my experience, and this was observed from frequent visits for blood test results, I was seen by jaded GPs who were more interested in handing out anti-depressants/towing the line as set out by the Royal College of Physicians.

Only subjects I can think of that would be better/as good as medicine in terms of jobs prospects/pay would be:

Dentistry
Vets
Law - Russell Group Uni then London Law Firm
Economics/Maths/Engineering - Top 5 university then job in the city.

I was seen by jaded GPs who were more interested in handing out anti-depressants

Which I'm sure wasn't the way your "ongoing medical condition" was dealt with when you went to the vets.

It has already been touched on, but I reckon it's important enough to reinforce the point: most other health professionals are breathing a tentative sigh of relief that the GPs have finally got on board and stood up to the frankly ridiculous destruction of the NHS. That may sound slightly hysterical but it's not.

It may be that money is the motivator for some of the striking doctors, but it doesn't actually matter WHY they're striking, it just matters that they are. Without their support, the rest of the health professionals (many of whom have already experienced massive cuts, both personally, and in their departments) would have had no choice but to watch the NHS being dismantled. As has been said, the money is a secondary consideration beside the incredibly destructive policy changes.

Cinnamon girl, at the risk of getting shot down I will try and answer your question. As GP's we finish our 6 years at medical school and then (although things have now changed slightly) we rotate through hospital jobs in various specialties, obstetrics, pediatrics, general medicine etc. we then have to do a supervised year as a GP registrar under the guidance of a trainer, during which time we do post graduate examinations. After this most people locum for a while to get an idea of the type of practice they want to enter and then apply either for partnership or salaried roles in a practice. We then do sessions in a practice either full or part time-depending on family life outside work. During this time we have surgeries in the day seeing on average 40 patients a day in 10 minute appointments, visits, paperwork, prescription requests, phone calls to make and receive from patients and colleagues, emergencies to sort out, and meetings with various colleagues, Macmillan nurses, occupational therapists, district nurses. In the surgery I work in we also see patients outside surgery times if they walk in and ask to be seen. Somewhere within all that we have to make time for continuing professional development- ie learning, some GP's do have sessions in hospitals, but usually as an extra body in clinic rather than for learning purposes. The upshot of it is, that there just is not time in the day to spend time in hospitals training, although it would be a good idea, and one I would welcome. We do our learning via courses, study groups, communication with our secondary care colleagues etc. I am sorry you have had crap experiences with your GP, despite being one myself I have had similar and so I understand your feelIngs, maybe you should consider another practice? I am paid well for my work, I am lucky to have a more or less recession proof job, and I love my job and my patients. My gripe with the government is hypocrisy and the fact that the public are going to get a shock when Privitisation of the NHS creeps in while they are all looking for someone to blame for trying to protect their pensions....