I am
When you have kids you will know
i used to view child murders as tragic now I need to dry my eyes when I read of them. Numbers dad was interviews o. Radio 4 this week and I had to stop driving
As for blaming the system for brutalising him you would need to look past what he did before the system dealt with him. More likely it has failed to unbrutalising him tbh.
To be fist we could argue we never really tried
Although he is unlikely to have had a 'normal' life in custody, I very much doubt he would have been 'brutalised' - far too high profile, in my opinion / experience. Sadly, you'll always get folk baying for blood in cases like this, and to a degree, that's understandable, considering what happened, but here's the thing: we don't have the death sentence in the UK, so why bother with all the 'this is what should happen' nonsense ?
I think, realistically, that the best we can hope for is that whoever carried out risk assessments on him knew what they were doing.
i have 3 kids and I agree with thx
he is right when he says that being a parent does not make your opinion more or less valid
If Venables was brutalised before the murder, then it just makes him another victim. I don;t think locking up a kid was ever the answer.
Is it just me that thinks that thx1138 is the new elfin login?
I have 2 kids and agree with thx
Generally comments and opinions supporting vengeance and punitive justice are born out of fear and also ignorance of the issues.
Again; what has having/not having kids got to do with this at all?
Your opinion on the matter marks you out as a "non parent"
So he asked if you had kids, for clarification of what he presumed.
Nobody said that answering "no" means you have no right to an opinion, just that it partially explains the opinion that you have.
Some people who are parents will hold the same opinion as you, but not that many.
(I don't have kids, but I don't share your opinion)
Is it just me that thinks that thx1138 is the new elfin login?
No.
Generally comments and opinions supporting vengeance and punitive justice are born out of fear and also ignorance of the issues.
It would be equally valid (and just as unprovable) to say
"Generally comments about rehabilitation and cuddle therapy are born out of lack of guts to do whats required, and ignorance of the issues"
In keeping with recent news this week...
[i]No kids... No say...[/i]
Is it just me that thinks that thx1138 is the new elfin login?
No.
(And its a crap film too)
Tom B - MemberIs it just me that thinks that thx1138 is the new elfin login?
Well, apart from the fact that they appear to have a different place of residence, religion, marital status, income and view on absolutely everything under the sun, I can see how you got confused.
Unless of course 'elfin' is just code for someone you don't agree with who won't shut up when you ask them to.
Unless of course 'elfin' is just code for someone you don't agree with who won't shut up when you ask them to.
🙂
Seems that way. But they're a paranoid lot on these bikey forums...
Aren't they just.
And they're all exactly who they say they are, with just the one log on.......
It would be equally valid (and just as unprovable) to say
"Generally comments about rehabilitation and cuddle therapy are born out of lack of guts to do whats required, and ignorance of the issues"
I don't think so. Rehabilitation of offenders is proven to reduce the likelihood of reoffending. The death penalty and permanent incarceration are proven to be ineffective forms of deterrent.
Calling it cuddle therapy highlights an ignorance of the issues. Also commenting that rehabilitation somehow indicates a lack of courage highlights an ignorance of the issues.
So to summarise, I don't think your comment has any relevance to mine whatsoever.
So to summarise, I don't think your comment has any relevance to mine whatsoever
I didn't say it was relevant (or correct)
I said it was just as valid (and unprovable)
And they're all exactly who they say they are, with just the one log on.......
I am 🙂
When you have kids you will know
i used to view child murders as tragic now I need to dry my eyes when I read of them.
junky - you massive hysterical drama queen! 😆
I didn't say it was relevant (or correct)
I said it was just as valid (and unprovable)
You attempted to draw a parallel between the two statements that doesn't actually exist. Which makes your comment invalid AND irrelevant. Perfect for a bit of forum stoking though, which seems to be your usual intention, no?
100!!
[quote=nealglover ]
Some people who are parents will hold the same opinion as you, but not that many.
And you have the data to back up this claim?
Given my username is my first name plus initial then I think that it's safe to say I'm being open about who I am. thx uses a very similar assertive questioning style as elfin minus the mockney. Ho hum.
So you've reported him to the mods then, seeing as elfin is banned?
And you have the data to back up this claim?
Do you have any to refute it ?
How can the death penalty not be an effective deterrent?Hang him he wont do it again will he?
Far to many Lord Longford sorts on here.
How can the death penalty not be an effective deterrent?Hang him he wont do it again will he?
You are getting deterrent & punishment mixed up I think.
How can the death penalty not be an effective deterrent?Hang him he wont do it again will he?
that is actually a very good point. I mean since the Americans have used the death penalty there hasn't been a single murder over there has there? 😀
I didnt say others wont murder ,and its cheaper than locking them up for 40 years
I'm not making any claimsnealglover - Member - Quote
And you have the data to back up this claim?
Do you have any to refute it ?
[quote=Edric 64 ]I didnt say others wont murder ,and its cheaper than locking them up for 40 years
Murder is wrong unless it's the state that carries it out?
Er, the death penalty isn't an effective deterrent because WE DON'T HAVE IT HERE.
I'm not making any claims
That's wasn't what I asked.
I asked if you had anything to refute what I said.
Im perfectly happy with what I said..
but you seemed to take issue with it, so feel free to prove me wrong if you like ?
Otherwise, like I said, I'm happy with it.
I've had a look at the photos and there is a very good chance it is him.
I don't really know how I feel about it, part of me wants him to get a savage beating, but then this is probably not the solution!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is he not currently in jail? Lynch mobs are a pretty bad idea at best but if they can only possibly get the wrong man, that's not really the best start.
barnsleymitch - MemberEr, the death penalty isn't an effective deterrent because WE DON'T HAVE IT HERE.
Is the reason it's not an effective deterrant in the states also because WE DON'T HAVE IT HERE?
Im perfectly happy with what I said..
But you can't back it up with data. Or can you?
But you can't back it up with data. Or can you?
It's an opinion.
Im not looking to get it Peer Reviewed and published 🙄
If someone has evidence to prove it wrong, fine.
If not, like I said twice already, I'm happy with my opinion.
I wonder how many of the jury, judge, social workers etc. involved in the case (the ones it appears thx agrees with - or have I got confused about who holds what opinion on here) have kids?
lets solve nealglovers lack of data with a little poll.
Add your names and status below
toys19: has kids, agrees with thx1138
nealglover: has kids, does not agree with thx1138
nealglover: has kids, does not agree with thx1138
Your data is flawed so I reject your findings 🙂
It's an opinion.
That you can't back up. And, iirc, stated as if it's a fact. So fair enough, you stated an opinion, that you can't back up. Glad we've cleared that up.
An "IMO" often helps when making those kind of assertions.
HTH.
HTH.
You can hope 😉
so you don't have kids?
Oh dear.
so you don't have kids?
Oh dear.
I did say so quite clearly.
Keep up love.
ah sorry, I'll amend the data set:
toys19: has kids, agrees with thx1138
nealglover: no kids, does not agree with thx1138
Me- has kid, agrees
You can hope
In my case, HTH stood for Happy To Help. I'd know better than to hope. 😛
Personally I think the pair of them should have been locked up for ever - both as a punishment and to protect society from them, and them from society.
It annoys me that £1000's of tax payers money has been spent, and is continuing to be spent protecting them, and hiding their identities.
I don't agree with the death penalty for various reasons, one of which is I feel it is pointless as it doesn't act as a deterant to people who are incapable of rational thought - which clearly covers these two individuals.
I hate the whole 'Sun reader Vigilante' thing, but can't help thinking it wouldn't be a bad thing if the pair of them end up dumped across a railway line with their heads caved in...
The only sensible solution to the current problem is to take them into protective custody and throw away the key.
t annoys me that £1000's of tax payers money has been spent, and is continuing to be spent protecting them, and hiding their identities.
Shirley it'd cost more if they were 'locked up for ever'?
freeagent - MemberIt annoys me that £1000's of tax payers money has been spent, and is continuing to be spent protecting them, and hiding their identities.
Take that one up with the vigilantes...
Personally I don't think justice has been done in case of Thompson and Venables. A few cushy years in an offenders institute, new identities and most likely handed some opportunities to help get them on their way in society. What does one of them end up doing? Showing a sexual inetrest in kids. Looks like all the rehab worked.
They should have locked up for a lot longer.
Tom B - Memberit annoys me that £1000's of tax payers money has been spent, and is continuing to be spent protecting them, and hiding their identities.
Shirley it'd cost more if they were 'locked up for ever'?
Yep, but at least the money would be being used to keep him away from the rest of society, or even the internet.
At the moment we ain't exactly getting much for our money are we? -
Other than supporting two very damaged/potentially dangerous and downright evil individuals out in the big wide world..
A few cushy years in an offenders institute
do you know anything about YOI other than the clichéd soundbites? Presumably you'd be happy for your own kids to grow up at one then?
They're not as austere as some might like but then that's been shown to be ineffective in actually reforming kids. the "cushy" option isn't even close to 100% effective, as we've seemingly this instance but at least it can work.
I do think the inability to reoffend after death is somewhat under rated in the 'lock them up for life or rehabilitate' argument. If wicked people are to be reintegrated into society they have to live next to somebody. If they're truthful would anyone of the pro rehabilitation for Mr V be happy to have him live next door to them? I know that's an overly personalised question but it's also reality for someone.
There is no 'right' answer that caters for all consequences, liberal or humane views but one definitely prevents reoffending, the rest don't.
thing folks tend to forget is when we are born we are blank canvasses. The urge to do evil or bad things can only come from surroundings and environment (with the odd clinical illness sometimes thrown in the mix). Everyone has the capacity to do things that are truly abhorrent with the right or wrong developmental triggers and stimuli. I find it strange that the sun reading vigilantes who want to "hang the paedo" are one in the same that find a photo of a woman dressed as a naughty school girl in the paper titillating.
revenge is not just and it is not right in a civilised society and that's all the death penalty or vigilante "justice" can be.
By all means keep those that are too damaged safely away from society, but we need to understand the early triggers and development of such people to prevent at source in the future rather than just knee jerk at the end result.
oh and tazzy- has kids....is not a hysterical drama queen or vigilante
The death penalty is NOT cheaper than a life sentence.
It costs approximately $5.5 million to execute a convicted felon, it costs approx $2.5 million to incarcerate a 20yr old male for the rest of his natural life.
That is in the US by the way, with all the appeals that are allowed under US law. Given that we would require at least the same protections under law as an American citizen, the costs involved would be similar.
Therefore, taking the perceived cost element out of it leaves revenge & revenge must never be mistaken for justice.
Cases are to be judged on they're merit. Given the heinous and despicable nature of this particular crime then I can see why some would be happy to see these individuals never to be released into society again.
And if I were related to the family affected by the offenders then I know exactly what Id like to happen to them.
Playing the devils advocate, where do we draw the line? If a murder is judged as premeditated should we never let offenders have the chance of liberty? Or only if children are the victims?
This particular crime, and that of its ilk are rare. These individuals are truly disturbed and its unlikely that either of them would go on to lead a productive and 'normal' role in society.
To that end, and the public's interest in the case and the offenders then in my opinion. They should have served the mandatory life sentence when they reached 18 years.
Or should they have been locked up without limit of time?
It worries me when I read sensible stuff posted by Taz on the interwebs 🙂
It worries me when I read sensible stuff posted by Taz on the interwebs
I just assume he's taken some drugs when he does. 🙂 It just ads to his sexiness if you ask me.
sorry.....usual offensive and slighty knobendery banter over on the SS rigid thread ------> over that way....I've already got satan on a single speed...now for pics of booobies!
The death penalty is NOT cheaper than a life sentence.It costs approximately $5.5 million
But that's the states, in the UK G4S have tendered at £10 a head 🙂
Thankfully, global support for the death penalty dwindles each year. Apart from animalising society, the most compelling argument against CP is that innocent people will be killed by it due to shortcomings in the justice system and human fallibility.
... and good post by tazzy.
I find it strange that the sun reading vigilantes who want to "hang the paedo" are one in the same that find a photo of a woman dressed as a naughty school girl in the paper titillating.
+1, and for the rest of your post.
I've seen the pictures, and although it does look like him... What if it isn't? It's not like these vigilantes do their homework. The time that some tried to burn down a paediatricians house springs to mind.
Also, those that want to see him have a good hiding, I'd bet my front wheel he's had more than a few of those before and after he became an offender.
When you have kids you will know
This all smacks of the Bill Bailey skit on "Speaking as a mother [insert bullshit here]".
For the posters claiming this gives you some sith [sic] sense, why not just accept that you may have clouded judgement on the issue?
I didnt say others wont murder ,and its cheaper than locking them up for 40 years
It is, however, a lot harder to meaningfully pardon a wrongfully convicted innocent person after the state has wrung them by the neck. Far too many reactionary nutjobs on here.
Personally I don't think justice has been done in case of Thompson and Venables. A few cushy years in an offenders institute, new identities and most likely handed some opportunities to help get them on their way in society. What does one of them end up doing? Showing a sexual inetrest in kids. Looks like all the rehab worked.They should have locked up for a lot longer.
Might it just be that locking up children has very poor efficacy as a rehabilitation method?
So now they are wrongly convicted ? If we cant hang them is firing squad or gassing ok ?
The time that some tried to burn down a paediatricians house springs to mind.
Well, it might "spring to mind" but the problem is, that never actually happened.
You have either believed a made up story, or made it up.
Not sure which ?
that never actually happened
I'm prepared to believe that it did, do you have evidence that it didn't?
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/aug/30/childprotection.society ]oh look august 2000 childrens dr driven from home by knobbers[/url]
There was Dr Yvette Cloette, a paediatrician whose house was vandalised and sprayed with "paedo"...
<dang! too slow>
I'm prepared to believe that it did, do you have evidence that it didn't?
You can believe what you like.
Everyone has the right to be wrong 😉
[url] http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/wire/8897 [/url]
and from a review of the news of the world name and shame campaign
the campaign immediately ran into problems.
There were violent scenes throughout the country as local people formed vigilante-type mobs intent on driving men taken to be those pictured in the paper out of their neighbourhoods.
In Portsmouth 300 people attacked the home of a local taxi driver who had been named by the paper.
An innocent man, Iain Armstrong, was beaten up by a mob in Manchester after being mistaken for one of the pictured paedophiles - apparently because he wore a neck-brace which looked like one worn to the man in the News of the World's picture.
nealglover - Member
You can believe what you like
So that's a 'no' then.
So that's a 'no' then.
Read the link.
It explains where the urban myths about "burning down paediatricians houses" come from.
But you can choose to pretend you think it happened and look daft in an attempt to "prove a point" if you like.
Your choice.
It explains where the urban myths about "burning down paediatricians houses" come from.
well to be fair is presents the supposition that it may have been kids with the graffiti but equally provides no supporting evidence.
so technically yes you are correct, no house was burned down....but persons unknown did spry her house, mobs in manchester did kick the crap out of a bloke for "looking a bit like paedo from the paper" and vigilantism has happened. so basically you are all wrong. 😀
Tazzymtb,
So nobody tried to burn down the house of a peadiatrician then ?
[edit] crossed posts.
But it is basically a made up story. Nobody ever burned down the house of a peadiatrician, or tried to.
neal darling I never claimed they did...hence why you are all wrong 😀
I was correcting wozza with his story that "sprung to mind"
(And rubber buccaneer who, I presume, was trying to prove a point)
The worst thing you can do is kill a kid, that's why kids who kill kids should be killed...
Blake Morrison's book about the Bulger murder and juvenile culpability As If is worth a read on this. It's not an easy (in the sense of comfortable - he writes very clearly and plainly).
[i]The worst thing you can do is kill a kid, that's why kids who kill kids should be killed...[/i]
Jesus H christ. So you're having a laugh when you say that, yes?
😯
Sometimes... people say things on here that make the mind boggle.
'thou shalt not *%£&*£!decaloguebunny!'
samuri - have you had an ironectomy?
Edric 64 - Member
So now they are wrongly convicted ? If we cant hang them is firing squad or gassing ok ?
Did I say that?
No.
I appreciate you may be being deliberately obtuse, but surely you can see that if the death penalty were brought in as a punishment for murder, there would be occasions where wrongly convicted innocent people end up being executed. If you can't see that then you have my pity.