[Closed] Those climbers on El Capitan, Yosemite...

I think, as a climber, I'm naturally drawn to the achievements from my era - stuff from Dawes, Moffatt, Moon etc.

I remember the quote from Moon in the 80s.

"When 6c just isn’t that hard any more and 6b is approaching a rest".(The upper end of English tech grades at the time).

It sounded like complete hyperbole back then, but the best climbers have gone even further now.

Which is why I earlier wondered why the media were getting all excited about this one.

Because even if you don't comprehend the achievement or the difficulty, it's still bloody impressive. we devote plenty of column inches to Kim Kardashian's arse or pandas failing to shag, and goodness knows how much time reporting football, how is this any less newsworthy?

What does a non-climber see? A couple of guys spending weeks climbing a distance that most viewers probably wouldn't even entertain walking. I've probably seen more media footage of their sleeping arrangements than them actually climbing. Why? Because even a non-climber can see that and think "bloody hell."

Take that Baumgardener bloke. All he did was fail to defy gravity, piece of piss in comparison, and he got plenty of airtime. Lots of beautiful photography, something a bit different, got people talking,and even if you know nothing about space or the atmosphere or skydiving you can look at the footage and think, christ that's a bit high.

These guys are pushing the limits of skill and endurance in their field and should be respected and applauded, does it matter that people don't understand that field? How many folk watched a shitload of minority sports they'd never heard of for days on end when the Olympics were on?

I think it is fantastic that climbing at the cutting edge of difficulty is getting news coverage. Obviously the news is making a hash of it all as issues such as style of ascent are largely lost on most non-climbing folk. Leo Houlding has been on the beeb a bit and has done his best to put them right though.

But overall, despite the mixed news reporting, it is great to see the cutting edge of climbing getting some news time.

I think, as a climber, I'm naturally drawn to the achievements from my era - stuff from Dawes, Moffatt, Moon etc.

slowoldman - Member

Does Joe Public appreciate the technical difficulty?

Not in any detail. But "**** me that looks basically impossible" is enough I think

I thought it a great achievement, something I think should, and glad it's been, on the News/TV.

A different Sport, a view in the lifestyle of other folks who care less about Handbags and Shoes, a desire to push themselves to their own limits.

Perfect News story IMO.

I've got no interest in climbing, but it has been great to see this amazing feat in the media, as it shows the world that there are people out there pushing limits and doing new/harder things.

The fact that some bloke leaving Liverpool FC got so much media coverage last week is more worrying, and a sad reflection of the UK today.

Basically - what bikebouy said ^^^

[quote=allthepies ]On some of the video feed I saw, one of the blokes seemed to be leaning back on the rope and letting it take the strain. Looked like he was using it as to get some brief rest from clinging on to the wall. Is that "allowed" when free climbing ?

No it's not. They won't have counted that pitch if they did that and will have gone back to the belay and climbed it again. It will have been on a failed attempt I presume - I don't think they were doing any deliberate reccying of the route on this expedition, that was all done months and years ago. They have had multiple attempts at some of the hardest pitches, but the ethics of their expedition are that if they fall or need to use the rope then they go back to the belay and try again.

That or it was somebody at a belay.

[quote=dazh ]2. Climb the route using only your body to make progress but using ropes etc for safety, but allowing falls and siege tactics (re-supplies, abbing up and down from a camp/base station) - aka Free climbing
3. Climb the route in one push using equipment only to protect you and allowing falls
...
These guys are doing something like no 2

I think they'd be insulted by that suggestion 😉 The whole point as I understood it was to do 3 in your list - they've climbed in a single push starting from the ground and free climbed every pitch. No abbing on and off the route. The only possible complaint is that they've had external contact for resupply as discussed upthread.

Given that even the best climbers in the world (something these guys have quite a good claim on for a certain criteria of best) couldn't climb the pitches on that on sight or without an occasional fall, anything further down the list is pretty much impossible for that technical standard of climbing. Maybe in 20 or 30 years somebody will be suggesting that those pitches are "approaching a rest", but I doubt it.

One reason for the hype is that style 3 is what most recreational climbers do (I suppose arguably style 5 or 6 - on sight flash is what people actually aspire to), so it's easier to relate to the ethic than for soloing or aid climbing. Lots of kudos for freeing an aid route, especially one nobody thought would be freed.

As a long ago climber that's a gob smacking performance, but of course there is the other view....

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/two-idiots-climb-big-thing-for-some-stupid-reason-2015011594457

As an aside,

Anyone know [i]how[/i] supplies are being ferried to them? Is there a climbing team doing kilometer-long round trips behind them, or is it lowered from the top on a really long rope, or what?

Seems that's a bit of an achievement in itself.

I presume the mash has already done 22 idiots kick an inflated bit of leather around for some stupid reason? 😉

correct.

often.

Devoted fan Tom Logan said: "I like to watch millionaires run around while trying to convince myself there is something at stake"

"And when I watch them on television the vast array of camera angles helps me convince myself I am being entertained."

I think they'd be insulted by that suggestion

I was assuming they were abbing down completed pitches to established camps rather than to the ground and then climbing the rope back to their highest point, but yes it looks on closer inspection to be a ground up attempt so no. 3 it is. The support is an issue though, but doing it unsupported in proper Alpine style would be pretty much impossible for a route of that difficulty. That will probably be the next improvement in style if/when anyone repeats it (which will be a long time coming IMO).

I presume they'd effectively already done 2 (over a number of years).

Well I'd have expected them to have attempted all the hard pitches, but not in the same push. Horses for courses though. It's all still mind-bogglingly impressive. Back in my climbing days I remember looking in disbelief at boulder problems with a similar technical difficulty to the moves on those pitches so to string together hundreds of those in one attempt is ridiculous.

[quote=dazh ]Well I'd have expected them to have attempted all the hard pitches, but not in the same push.

I can't see a significant difference in ethics or difficulty between abbing back to a base camp to take some time off, and driving home to sleep in your own bed before coming back weeks or months later! Though I suppose they might have done all the right pitches, but not necessarily in the right order.

I was assuming they were abbing down completed pitches to established camps rather than to the ground and then climbing the rope back to their highest point

Your assumption was correct. They've done all the pitches in the right order, but with fixed lines in place so they could go up/down from established camps to whichever pitch every day.

Standard style on big walls is to break down your portaledges etc. every day and haul it all up behind you, pitch by pitch. But thats an extra level of hassle and effort they clearly decided they could do without, given the length of time they were going to be on the wall anyway.

From teh grauniad

Wearing headlamps, they usually climbed after dusk so the rock would be cold to prevent their hands sweating – a big problem when trying to grab tiny granite ledges

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[img] [/img]

For those who don't climb I can understand the lack of understanding on what this achievement is. 'hey they use ropes, how can that be free climbing'... all explained above. Even the climbing world gets confused about it.

But forget the ropes thing for a second and look at what they are actually climbing, look at the sizes of the holds. Climbs get graded by difficulty. Most of these climbs were circa 8b/8c+. Trust me that's well hard. From memory only the likes of Ondra and Sharma are climbing above that at 9a. Beyond that doesn't exist.

I took some total non climbers bouldering a few months back, they all thought it looked easy enough, got them kitted out at my local wall. Not a single one of them managed anything above grade 5, indeed most were on lower grade stuff and struggling to finish the climbs. Dawn Wall is mostly grade 8c+ most of the way up. You might think, hey its only 3 more levels up... but each grade is split further by a letter, a b or c and then often a plus is added to indicate its a bit harder. I've been climbing regularly for 6 years and have only got to 7a. These guys are brilliant climbers, complete respect.

Footage of the dyno move being practiced a previous year:

I doubt even Honnold would do that without a rope!

From memory only the likes of Ondra and Sharma are climbing above that at 9a. Beyond that doesn't exist.

Many more people than that have climbed 9a now - It's been onsighted by Ondra and by Megos. The first 9a+ was almost 20 years ago (Open Air) and La Dura Dura, Change and Vasil Vasil are supposed to go at 9b+.

Many more people than that have climbed 9a now - It's been onsighted by Ondra and by Megos. The first 9a+ was almost 20 years ago (Open Air) and La Dura Dura, Change and Vasil Vasil are supposed to go at 9b+.

The fact you know the names show how few people climb at that level 🙂

Dunno if this has been posted yet but it gives some idea of the difficulty (about 2mins in)...

Climbingnarc has a live feed from some US TV station : http://climbingnarc.com/2015/01/watch-dawn-wall-finish-live/

Rather strangely it's currently the pre-broadcast live feed of a bored reporter talking to the studio

Edit - ignore me, I'm a day behind...

[img] [/img]

The fact you know the names show how few people climb at that level

Of course it's an incredible feat to make it to that level but I'd reckon that there's well over 100 9a climbers in the world these days, the vast majority of whom I've never heard of. There must be getting on for a dozen brits* for a start. I was just pointing out that beyond that level does exist.

*Top of head - McClure, McCaffie, Macleod, Smith, Bolger, Haston, Gaskins, Carson, Buys,Pearson, Simpson (ha!)...

Don't forget Moon, Smith and Dunning (given that Ben's idea of what's 8c+ has so far resisted Ondra, Graham and McColl).

I don't think we're quite at the point where 9a just isn't that hard any more, and 8c is not yet approaching a rest.

Oh, and according to this page : http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php

There are 272 climbers who have done 9a or harder (although they've chucked in split 8c+/9a routes and boulder link-ups like Pilgrimage)

either way, its a fairly exclusive club right? 😉

Back on topic whens the press conference?

First they have to re-learn how to walk on flat ground.

I keep reading this thread title as 'El Capitan, Yorkshire'

I keep reading this thread title as 'El Capitan, Yorkshire'

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/two-idiots-climb-big-thing-for-some-stupid-reason-2015011594457
/p>

😆

...which seems to be the consensus. You can get some insight into how hard New Statesman is by simply walking to the bottom and trying to pull onto the first move. And trying...

Anyway, climbing's one of those things like chess where you've got to be pretty good to understand just how good the really good players/climbers are. (I don't with either.) Grades/numbers just don't convey it for me, in the same way that a four minute mile is not 20% harder than a five minute mile. Hey ho.

'El Capitan, Yorkshire'

I used to climb when I was younger, mostly in the Peaks. I could not reliably second E1, let alone lead, but I've got a rough idea of what a "6" move was like, in terms of technicality.

I have absolutely no idea what sustained 8+ moves, on that length of climb, with that degree of exposure would be like. I just know it is a great achievement.

My own inspiration was the likes of Johnny Dawes:

E1 is roughly equivalent to French 6a, or American 5.10a

The hardest pitches on Dawn Wall are 5.14, which is roughly equivalent to E10 or above (or French 8b+ to 9a).

Johnny's hardest routes are extremely classy E8s and E9s. Some of them are in the videos LemonySam posted of Jorgenson.

'El Capitan, Yorkshire'

Well if they want a real challenge they could always come over and try Il Pirata, Lancashire...

I met Johnny Dawes at the climbing wall a year or so ago. He was trying to get up something with what looked like a heel hook for the sake of it. He fell off a few times, but then made it stick.

I told him I hadn't thought he was going about it the right way, but fair play for making it work. Then he turned to talk to me and I realised why he looked familiar.

Johnny Dawes gets a "quite good" from punter at climbing wall. 😳

I guess I'm not the first to say he's unconventional though...

All this interest has persuaded me to dig my old photos out tonight which should include an album of when I aid-climbed Dawn Wall about 20 years ago. I imagine some of the pitches will be same as those which have now gone free. If I get chance I'll scan a few in and post em up.

Now those I would like to see.
The bravest aiding I did was some RURPs and hooking on the slate or maybe the bean can hangers in Tin Can alley in Ogwen.

Article from Black Diamond about the success and 7 year lead-up:

https://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/experience-story?cid=tommy-caldwell-kevin-jorgeson-dawn-wall-first-free-ascent

[img] [/img]

I'll be checking back for your photo's, marcus! Happy reminiscing!

The thought of sleeping in a porta-ledge scares me to death. I don't know if I could sleep for wondering if the gear attaching it to the face will hold!

I think these guys are amazing and i'd rather see any big achievement like this from any sport, take centre stage on the news over the depressing stuff the media seems to focus on.

They were talking about this on R4 this morning and one thing they mentioned was that the tiny matchstick-wide holds they're climbing up are razor sharp, so part of the challenge is to manage the damage to the skin on your fingers.

I take it this is a much harder climb than Half Dome that Alex Honnold Solo'd in 2.5hrs despite being taller?

This is the one that absolutely blows my mind though considering the history of the Eigers North Face even though it is probably easy from a technical point of view:-

I take it this is a much harder climb than Half Dome that Alex Honnold Solo'd in 2.5hrs despite being taller?

Much, much harder. Regular Northwest on HD has a couple of pitches in the 5.12 range I think, as opposed to stacks of 5.14 and 5.13 on this.

Much, much harder. Regular Northwest on HD has a couple of pitches in the 5.12 range I think, as opposed to stacks of 5.14 and 5.13 on this.

Just for reference, 5.12 is the level a reasonable Weekend Warrior might redpoint at whereas top end 5.14 is a level that only a handful of brits have ever managed.